Egyptian Armed Forces

[Amir_Pharaoh]

EAF MIG-29M2 Advanced, armed with R-77 + R-73

 

[MICA]

@Gomig-21 The R-77 is a good missile and all but it's not as fancy as they advertise it , the French Mica is way ahead of the R-77 but at the end i am a bit happy we got other bvr missile in large numbers other than the Aim-7p

 

[Gomig-21]

One of these Mig-35s replaces 3 Mig-21..and this is a very conservative estimate due to the new tech, engine power, weapons load, reach..etc.. So 50 Mig-35 are replacing 150 Mig-21s.. and with much up-to-date tech..
This is another dimension to take into account..

Indeed, but it does hurt me a little to see my lover finally put to sleep. Has there ever been anything more beautiful that this, though?

I know us old-timers are stuck in our times. "Back in the day, we had to walk to school!"

Which is something I always have an issue with. In my opinion the future of aircraft is just as important as what it provides now.

Well, I'll give you one right off the bat in support of this MiG-29/35 ~ WEAPONS.
Besides introducing the two primary Russian A2A missiles to the EAF, it has now opened the door for the slew of Russian weaponry with regards to not only A2A, but A2G and the ever so important Russian ECM warfare technology. The platform, being the higher-end 4th generation will have the adaptability to introduce the future developments of Russian missile technology. As you also eluded to, with India heavily involved with the MiG-29K/KUB, there's also the potential that any future upgrades to that platform will suit the EAF's MiG-35s as well, being they're almost identical aircraft.

I realize what you're saying with regards to the developmental upgrading potential of the platform itself as it's not necessarily well suited for 4++ generation aspects as much as the Rafale is, but if we look at it in terms of a respectable, stop-gap utility AND a solid potential for Russian MLUs in advanced weaponry, EW and even radars, it could be a very good thing.

At least three of those hit a dead end in terms of development as early as 1990 yet they remained in service in some capacity or another till now and gave us this replacement headache.

lol. I hear ya. Maybe a positive spin on this headache is even with the more frequent engine overhauls, this could be a good thing for the EAF's technical base. They had great success with the SNECMA overhauls in the Mirage 2K and the MiG-21, so maybe they won't necessarily be starting from scratch. I realize the evident burden of having an additional warehouse/shop and different engine to deal with for a separate platform, but with the experience that already exists, it might not be as burdensome as we think?

Which is a result of flawed strategic planning. The EAF continued its investment well into the 21st century when it was apparent that restrictions weren't going to be lifted - unless there were drastic changes in policy - in the 1990s and early 2000s.

They knew that the Israelis would always object but did sod all to help themselves either.

Not signing memorandums to help with interoperability, racking up 3rd party violations, and not deploying on UN sanctioned missions with conflicted air spaces. Egypt has not given the United States a reason to release the AMRAAM, if anything it has put up more hurdles.

We've been in agreement with that since we met, but what would have been the alternative or other option? Try to remedy all that to get a lift on all those restriction and wait another decade while still unsure of what the Israelis will do when they jump up and down and scream in protest? Or seek other alternatives which is what they did? Honestly, I would chose the latter while working on the former. Maybe they did the right thing?

From those with actual inside connects (@MICA) it seems the EAF is more than confident in the Rafales missile package, perhaps more than the Russian one.

I also think that the French being confident enough in fielding the MICA alone with the prospect of going up against the Russians is important.

Also have to remember the MICA NG - which promises better range, detection and acquisition - is right around the corner (2023-2025) and the Meteor may be a possibility.

That's good to hear @MICA 's inside connections indicating the EAF's positive views of the French missiles, and I don't think anyone doubted their quality and prowess, but we also have published numbers from many sources. Also (and I'm not trying to be a pain and contrarian), but how could they have really assessed the Russian missiles when they haven't had the same access to them as they have the French ones and they're not even in country yet like the MICAs?

Not only the AIM-9X was greatly influenced by the same Russian R-73 (and now the R-73M is even more impressive), but the MICA IR/EM was also a product of countering the R-73. There has to be some strong value to these Russian systems.

Also, with regards to your point on the French going up against the Russians in Syria, I would think that has more to do with the Rafale's vaunted SPECTRA. There's no question that the Rafale's largely composite structure with SPECTRA with MICAs and ECM suite with its fusion cockpit is an absolute gem of a platform. Truly a great shoe-in to counter the F-35's performance capabilities in several critical areas. You won't get any argument from me about that.

Obviously we don't have the numbers but I suspect operating three different types is a damn sight more expensive. Especially when it has already been proven we can absorb the Rafale quickly without changing much and even use weapon systems already in service on it.

As for operating costs, buy more and fly more, economies of scale. The F-35 is the most expensive thing out there but the order numbers it has will make it incredible value for money.

I think Russian frame and engine life is being overlooked here. They need overhaul and replacement far more often than their western counterparts.

Plus unless the MiG - 35 becomes an export success we may have to front the development cost - like we did for this bird already - alone at some point if the Russian replacement materializes as they'll obviously priorities that.

We may pay less cash upfront but the lifetime cost may just be higher than that of introducing the Rafale alone.

You know I've been with you (and I think we're all in agreement on adding more Rafales), but what about even just fly-away cost? Can the EAF get additional Rafales -- let's say 24 more to make a total of 48 which would include the option for 12 that exists under the current contract -- and looking at that fly-away cost of $80 million per and with additional requirements bringing it close to $100 million per (example to make it easy), would the EAF fork out $2.5/$3.0 billion? Let's even assume a direct comparison of 50 additional Rafales to offset the 50 MiGs, that's a possible $6 billion just in fighter jets. The 50 MiG-35's are probably @ 1/3 the cost of that with everything they represent. I think they can and could've done it but why didn't they?

The Russians are already using the return of flights to Sharm as leverage when the entirety of their security demands were met several years ago.

I think people are also forgetting the Russians like to keep nations dependent on their depots and factories for overhaul, engine replacement, and repair. Without the Ukraine and several other former Soviet states many of the MiGs and Su that are still flying around today wouldn't have been.

They have also been the most difficult to deal with in regards to funding. Unwilling to offer soft loans or long term contracts. The prospect of offsets also doesn't exist.

They will eventually want to undermine our attempts to export energy to Europe and continue to find things to leverage until they get what they want; the naval base they wanted since the fifties.

I think distaste for the US is somewhat unfounded. The support infrastructure the EAF has for the -16 is pretty good, I don't think the Russians would agree to anything similar.

France has a long history of arming morally questionable regimes and are also open to transfer of tech/support infrastructure given the cash is right.

Just FYI, I don't view things from a "distasteful point of view to the west," but from a pragmatic point of view. These are the realities on the ground with respect to how the US has dealt with Egypt in terms of access to weaponry. Look at what Obama did when he temporarily suspended the F-16 blck 52's delivery. In a way, Egypt is much better off with Trump instead of Hilary as the latter would've followed in Obama's shoes. Turmp has shown the opposite when it comes to viewing Sisi but even with that, I believe the US through congress is much more restrictive for obvious reasons than Russia will ever be.

I was very surprised by the French deal and I don't think anyone can deny that. So what are the other option, given the cost of the French hardware and nothing coming from the US in the short term and quite possibly in the long term? MAYBE what they did with these MiGs will prompt the US and at the same time open the door to the East and the potential it offers.

@Gomig-21 The R-77 is a good missile and all but it's not as fancy as they advertise it , the French Mica is way ahead of the R-77 but at the end i am a bit happy we got other bvr missile in large numbers other than the Aim-7p

Enta ya 3am fenak? 7amdela 3salama!
"Way better?" My goodness that's a very bold statement. You know that the Americans, Brits and French had heart attacks when they first went to Germany and saw what the R-73 did to their F-16s, F/A-18's and Mirages?
I know the tech in the MICA is superb with its LOBL but specifically with its LOAL and passive seeker. I think that tech aspect alone which allows the missile to be fired and target an enemy aircraft without using its radar to warn the enemy target is incredible. That's probably the biggest advantage to the MICA which makes it very difficult to defeat with ECM or even flares. But the Russian missiles also have their pluses. I'm interested to hear why you think the MICA is way better.

I think many of us are also quite pleased that both of those missiles (amongst other excellent Russian weapons) are now in the EAF and the potential for much more to come also ISA.

 

[MICA]

@Gomig-21 I was away because this thread became boring and somewhat ruined ...

The R-73 aka archer is the best Russian A2A missile has been made till this day and has confirmed kills that's something we have to finally brag about after being held off getting the Aim-9x with it's helmet.

In a brief, the R-77 has a very bad history of malfunctions (seeker problems , failed launching , poor target tracking) the fact that it's range , speed, maneuverability gets affected once it reached half of it's advertised range puts every other missile on market ahead of it , that's why India still in the market for a replacement for it since the problem it faced with it since 2004 if i remember correctly

 

[Gomig-21]

@Gomig-21 I was away because this thread became boring and somewhat ruined ...

The R-73 aka archer is the best Russian A2A missile has been made till this day and has confirmed kills that's something we have to finally brag about after being held off getting the Aim-9x with it's helmet.

In a brief, the R-77 has a very bad history of malfunctions (seeker problems , failed launching , poor target tracking) the fact that it's range , speed, maneuverability gets affected once it reached half of it's advertised range puts every other missile on market ahead of it , that's why India still in the market for a replacement for it since the problem it faced with it since 2004 if i remember correctly

This is one of the best threads on this forum! It looks like the Moderators have taken care of the insects so we should be good now. I can argue about the missiles until the cows come home but I won't haha.

I believe the Indian Air Force had problems with their batch due to some storage issues IIRC. They were arguing that the missiles were inherently defective but the Russians said they were stored improperly in high humidity conditions. Hard to tell what really was the problem.

They just successfully completed the testing of their Astra missile with great success. I think the missile hit all 11 target, a success rate of 100%. Doesn't get any better than that. 3o2balna InshaAllah. A7am haga 3andenna te2ba training training training and lots of flight hours. Wear those jets out that's what they're there for. The F-16 guys seem to get good hours they need to keep it up. It doesn't matter how good the missile is without the training. Good to see you.

 

[Amir_Pharaoh]

The Rapid Deployment Forces (RDF)

 

[Gomig-21]

 

[The SC]

Egyptian "Al-Fateh" Gowind 2500 yesterday in the port of Emden in the state of Lower Saxony in northern Germany, Where the second submarine S42 from the class 209/1400 Maud is expected to arrive to accompany it to Alexandria naval base..

The best Mig-35 picture ever.. I've never seen any Mig-29s that look like this..

 

[Frogman]

As you also eluded to, with India heavily involved with the MiG-29K/KUB, there's also the potential that any future upgrades to that platform will suit the EAF's MiG-35s as well, being they're almost identical aircraft.

I might be wrong but I heard the Navy is thinking of following the Air Force and introducing the Rafale M for its future carriers.

Might be worth asking on the Indian section.

it might not be as burdensome as we think?

Do we even know if they're still up and running?

For an Air Force and nation that is strapped for resources not consolidating everything into one or two platforms is always going to be a burden.

but what would have been the alternative or other option? Try to remedy all that to get a lift on all those restriction and wait another decade while still unsure of what the Israelis will do when they jump up and down and scream in protest? Or seek other alternatives which is what they did? Honestly, I would chose the latter while working on the former. Maybe they did the right thing?

I don't think they should have continued getting more when it became obvious that they would continually reject the requests. Since 2000 the EAF added 65 more -16s. Why grow your dependency on something you know full well will be neutered down the line as well.

Honestly the Mirage 2K was what they should have stuck with. Instead wasted resources on F-7s, MiG - 21s, and keeping the older Mirages in service.

I think they can and could've done it but why didn't they?

It's nothing new and is repeated everywhere in the forces. Multiple sources of armament - even covering the same capability without supply security problems - without a long term strategic plan for improvement.

It's why we got the Pohang, Molonya, T-90, SiG 552 M4A1 SiG 516 AK 103 ARX 160, An - 74 etc etc etc

It's not just a political decision based on supply security. This is how they think things should be run.

Just FYI, I don't view things from a "distasteful point of view to the west," but from a pragmatic point of view.

It wasn't really aimed at you. But many people on forums and elsewhere have an irrational paranoia and distaste for the West which often forms their opinions in regards to what the military should and should not be doing.

MAYBE what they did with these MiGs will prompt the US and at the same time open the door to the East and the potential it offers.

I've heard this argument for a long time now and I guess it is time to see if it actually works. I have my reservations.

Just to finish this off because I feel like we're going in circles when we agree on most points. We would all be happier if it was 46+ Rafales instead of MiGs.

I think we are so enthusiastic in defending the MiGs capabilities so it makes sense but we would all take the Rafale over it in a heartbeat and we all know that makes much more sense.

A simple answer is because of the size of Egypt and also because potential adversaries of Egypt have much more that that, qualitatively as well as quantitatively..

Then go with a fighter that has a considerable amount of range and the ability to super cruise. In tandem with MRTT and buddy buddy refueling and you can now go farther, faster, with more. The Rafale fits that bill.

I don't think Egypt has a chance of achieving parity with Israel in this generation or the next without a coherent procurement and national industry strategy. I truly believe what is happening now will leave us in the same position 30 years down the line.

 

[Gomig-21]

From this angle, it seems that there is a bit of an aft view from the bridge. At first and from all the other angles it looked like the view from the bridge was restricted to forward, port and starboard only, given the size and placement of the radar tower, but here there might be limited view aft as well. Nice ship, it'll be interesting to see what helo they assign and use with these.

 

[DavidSling]

Israel to conduct joint air force drills with Greece, Cyprus, Egypt
Greek Defense Minister Panos Kammenos says exercises part of efforts to bolster stability in eastern Mediterranean
By APOctober 1, 2017, 5:13 pm

Russian-made military helicopters of the Cypriot air force fly by a Cyprus flag during a military parade marking 57th anniversary of independence, in Nicosia, in the divided island of Cyprus, October 1, 2017. (AP/Petros Karadjias)

NICOSIA, Cyprus — Greece’s defense minister says plans are being drawn up for joint air force drills with Cyprus, Israel, Egypt and European countries as part of efforts to bolster stability in the eastern Mediterranean.

• 
  Panos Kammenos’ remarks Sunday came after a military parade in the Cypriot capital to commemorate the 57th anniversary of the ethnically divided island’s independence.
  
  Get The Times of Israel's Daily Edition by email and never miss our top storiesFREE SIGN UP
  
  The parade included the overflight of a pair of Greek Air Force F-16 jets, the first showing of the Greek warplanes at the event in 16 years.
  
  The island’s Greek Cypriot President Nicos Anastasiades said there will be no let-up in efforts to reunify Cyprus, despite July’s collapse of peace talks with breakaway Turkish Cypriots.
  
  Russian-made BUK surface-to-air missiles were also put on the display at the parade.
  
  
  
  
  Greek air force warplanes fly over the military parade during celebrations of the 57th anniversary of independence, in Nicosia, in the divided island of Cyprus,October 1, 2017. (AP/Petros Karadjias)

 

[Gomig-21]

Israel to conduct joint air force drills with Greece, Cyprus, Egypt
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-conduct-joint-air-force-drills-with-greece-cyprus-egypt/

The Greeks are the ones trying to make this happen and IF it does, it would be the Greeks "conducting" the exercise not as that title suggests. Either way, when I first read this a few days ago, I thought strange things have happened before but this would be pretty strange. How times have changed.

 

[The SC]

The Greeks are the ones trying to make this happen and IF it does, it would be the Greeks "conducting" the exercise not as that title suggests. Either way, when I first read this a few days ago, I thought strange things have happened before but this would be pretty strange. How times have changed.

Time to get out the Mig-21s.. nothing to sniff for those guys.. you know whom I am talking about..

 

[Gomig-21]

Time to get out the Mig-21s..

Ok...

 

[Nile-Tiger]

I know that the question sounds so stupid or naive, but... Is there any way the old fighters like MIG 21 and Mirage 5 can still be operational and useful, or it will be a complete waste of time and efforts and money ???

Can't these 1970's fighters/interceptors be completely upgraded and fitted with modern systems and missiles/bombs ???