Efforts increase to prevent interfaith marriage in India

[Joe Shearer]

You are currently uneducated and unsophisticated and hence don't know that. Muslims all over have been modern Communists and Socialists since the early 1900s. The famous landmark called Lal Chowk in Srinagar, capital of current India-administered Kashmir, was named so before Partition by local Muslim and Sikh Communists taking inspiration from the Red Square in Moscow in their agitation against Hari Singh, the raja of the region.

You should read this thread of mine from 2016 whose OP is an article by the Pakistani journalist Nadeem Paracha and is about historic Muslim participation and taking inspiration from Communism and Socialism. I quote a section :

There have been entire Communist and Socialist Muslim movements and countries. See my profile picture. What do you think Libya was before 2011 ?

And you are in Britain. You have the Pakistan-origin Communist Tariq Ali living there and whose parents in undivided India ( before Partition ) and in Pakistan were Communists.

You could remind them of Danial Latifi, one of the titanic figures in Indian jurisprudence. You could tell them about a little-known poet who was arrested, tried and jailed for his part in the Rawalpindi Conspiracy, that was, in fact, no conspiracy at all by those accused, but by those accusing. There are a thousand others. When a very young man, and exploring various schools of thought, I was invited by Professor Susobhan Sarkar to listen to the famous Muzaffar Ahmad about his ordeal during the Meerut Conspiracy Case. Although the excesses of the Naxalites soon made a liberal and an opponent of violent class struggle out of me, these are heroic people, and for someone to make the bombastic claims that you are (mistakenly) trying to counter, merely displays that person's very narrow outlook and very poor information about the history of the sub-continent.

 

[mhosein]

So I have question for Indians, both Muslims and Hindus.

Are Indians aware of the Islamic Law, where a Muslim Man is permitted to marry a Jewish or Christian woman, without them having to embrace Islam and if a Muslim Man is to marry anyone other than a Muslim, Jew or Christian woman, that the prospective spouse would have to embrace Islam prior to marriage. As with a Muslim Woman, whomever she chooses to marry, aside from a Muslim Man, the prospective spouse must embrace Islam, irrespective of them being Jewish or Christian or any other faith.

So are Indian Muslims and Hindus, aware of this Islamic Law?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It is, in fact, the only sane way to go forward. Not even to go forward and progress; simply to go forward.

Pakistani state is stuck in the quagmire of religion. The deleterious effects of religion peddled in public space has eaten any progress the country would have made. The pernicious effects of this are visible in politics, in education, in economics and most brutally displayed when crowds like addled animals tear apart their fellow man to apease their blood thirsty idea of god in all to often cases of 'blasphemy'.

Secularism is the only way out. It is no by accident that countries like Turkey or Malaysia which are more developed amongst the Muslim world are either uber secular to have the attributes of secularism.

Even UAE is slowly evolving into de facto secular state ... !

 

[Joe Shearer]

Pakistani state is stuck in the quagmire of religion. The deleterious effects of religion peddled in public space has eaten any progress the country would have made. The pernicious effects of this are visible in politics, in education, in economics and most brutally displayed when crowds like addled animals tear apart their fellow man to apease their blood thirsty idea of god in all to often cases of 'blasphemy'.

Secularism is the only way out. It is no by accident that countries like Turkey or Malaysia which are more developed amongst the Muslim world are either uber secular to have the attributes of secularism.

Even UAE is slowly evolving into de facto secular state ... !

I gave your post a positive rating, and then hastily withdrew it, to avoid some hyper-patriot thinking that I was applauding your first paragraph, and indirectly doing down a neighbouring country.

Needless to say, I was struck by the positive arguments of your second and third.

 

[dBSPL]

Even UAE is slowly evolving into de facto secular state ... !

I'm not a fan of MBS, but even he is following the reforms that made KSA more secular.

 

[Paitoo]

What do you think of the pizza the girl students in Karnataka are being forced to eat or are being prevented from eating?

She should be allowed to wear the hijab. I cannot see these matters from the lens of technicality like other Indians are doing. I have said this in earlier threads that there were hijab wearing girls during my college time, which was 22-25 years ago. It was a college run by a Hindu trust, and many of the trustees were Brahmins, including the Principal. It was an absolute non-issue. If you have time and inclination, do read my longer response below.

This incident is from south coastal Karnataka, a region which along with its southern neighbour Kerala has seen a lot of migration to the gulf countries by its Muslim population. The Christian population is also substantial in both these regions. The Hindus feel that the men returning from gulf countries are bringing Arab customs along with them. They also feel that due to their increasing prosperity courtesy petrodollars, they are opening more mosques, starting more businesses and becoming culturally more assertive. And of course there is the love jihad angle. They feel Muslim men are free to mingle with non Muslim women, but want to cover up their own women. A combination of all these factors is at play here.

What I find laughable is the sudden interest in enforcement of rules, in a country where rules are broken every day, all day. Encroachment of public spaces, traffic violations, corruption, tax avoidance, the list is endless. Even if the girl broke the rule of the college, what about those male students who broke the law of the land by intimidating her like that? I never heard of consequences for hate speeches given in Haridwar when we have a very clear law against it. In fact no one ever gets arrested for hate speech unless he is of no consequence.

@jamahir feels this wannabe arab attitude has no place in society, but being any kind of wannabe is not an offence. There are all sorts of wannabes. It is not our job to police them. To conclude, I feel that we Hindus as a larger community should be more magnanimous, like we have been to the Sikhs in allowing them to wear the turban. Moreover, wearing a hijab is a step towards more modesty, not less. Just like we are ok with erring on the side of caution, clothing that is more conservative should not be a problem unless it is posing a security risk. We have not been overrun culturally by Muslims in 1000 years of Islamic rule, we are not going to be overrun now.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Pakistani state is stuck in the quagmire of religion. The deleterious effects of religion peddled in public space has eaten any progress the country would have made. The pernicious effects of this are visible in politics, in education, in economics and most brutally displayed when crowds like addled animals tear apart their fellow man to apease their blood thirsty idea of god in all to often cases of 'blasphemy'.

Secularism is the only way out. It is no by accident that countries like Turkey or Malaysia which are more developed amongst the Muslim world are either uber secular to have the attributes of secularism.

Even UAE is slowly evolving into de facto secular state ... !

Things would have been right,if we would have been following Islam which came from Almighty but things are going from bad to worst,since we have made our own Islam and are following it to the point were in the name of blasphemy anyone can be beaten,burned and hanged by angry mob.

 

[jamahir]

We have our bunch of westerners liberals and "religious" party selling the Religion only to stay in power.

May they rot in hell all of them

Do you expect me to agree on something against my religion, just because the establishment here issued a law against my Religion ???

Also the women that marry a non Muslim are really really rare, at the opposite, Tunisian women bringing non Muslims to Islam via marriage is huge, they become better Muslims than us.

Don't underestimate our womens, they are religious too.

I am just going to stop debating such things on this forum because I am tired of doing it, to not much change, since 2014. I reply to you since it was me who tagged you in the morning.

Islam was a message of socio-economic and political progress and humanity too so you should look to the next step. We should be looking at an Earth without borders since the concept of Nation State is an artificial one first set up after the French Revolution which itself removed the monarchy in France and monarchy being an obsolete concept. And what about when humans settle Mars around 2035 ? Will you, Nabil, carry there your idea of Islam being a secluded, isolationist community or will you meld it into a cosmopolitan, advanced, unified humanity ? It is for you to think of this. Over and out.

You could remind them of Danial Latifi, one of the titanic figures in Indian jurisprudence. You could tell them about a little-known poet who was arrested, tried and jailed for his part in the Rawalpindi Conspiracy, that was, in fact, no conspiracy at all by those accused, but by those accusing. There are a thousand others. When a very young man, and exploring various schools of thought, I was invited by Professor Susobhan Sarkar to listen to the famous Muzaffar Ahmad about his ordeal during the Meerut Conspiracy Case. Although the excesses of the Naxalites soon made a liberal and an opponent of violent class struggle out of me, these are heroic people, and for someone to make the bombastic claims that you are (mistakenly) trying to counter, merely displays that person's very narrow outlook and very poor information about the history of the sub-continent.

Yes, unfortunately the very-narrow-outlook and poor information people are more prominent now on PDF.

You mentioned Danial Latifi and I remembered now that he is mentioned in an article which I posted in this thread in 2015. The article is by an Indian Christian woman who married and Indian Muslim under Islamic marriage law because that better secured her socio-economic rights in case of divorce. That contractual marriage stands against the very narrow outlook of the Deoband mullahs who last year put out a fatwa against inter-faith marriage by Muslims.

Can you tell me more about Muzaffar Ahmad because I don't know about him ?

One complaint I have against the Naxalites is that they, at least in my knowledge, didn't act against the interest-charging moneylenders who forced countless farmers to suicide and didn't act against the landlords who even today keep bonded laborers in some parts of the country.

Lastly, to bring back your point of some people not knowing the history of the Subcontinent, this morning I watched this interview of Tahira Mazhar Ali, the mother of Tariq Ali. She was in the Communist movement like I wrote earlier and in the interview she gives a nice account of the region in the 1950s including her meeting with Jinnah and the fact that in the Lahore of those times females could go places cycling without harassment. The lady interviewing also is knowledgeable about Pakistan and India. I want @khansaheeb to watch the interview.

So I have question for Indians, both Muslims and Hindus.

Are Indians aware of the Islamic Law, where a Muslim Man is permitted to marry a Jewish or Christian woman, without them having to embrace Islam and if a Muslim Man is to marry anyone other than a Muslim, Jew or Christian woman, that the prospective spouse would have to embrace Islam prior to marriage. As with a Muslim Woman, whomever she chooses to marry, aside from a Muslim Man, the prospective spouse must embrace Islam, irrespective of them being Jewish or Christian or any other faith.

So are Indian Muslims and Hindus, aware of this Islamic Law?

I am aware but please read my reply to Nabil above.

@jamahir feels this wannabe arab attitude has no place in society, but being any kind of wannabe is not an offence. There are all sorts of wannabes. It is not our job to police them. To conclude, I feel that we Hindus as a larger community should be more magnanimous, like we have been to the Sikhs in allowing them to wear the turban. Moreover, wearing a hijab is a step towards more modesty, not less. Just like we are ok with erring on the side of caution, clothing that is more conservative should not be a problem unless it is posing a security risk. We have not been overrun culturally by Muslims in 1000 years of Islamic rule, we are not going to be overrun now.

While you are correct about what I feel I also will say that if you watch the old Indian serial The Sword of Tipu Sultan you will find no burqa in it. Similarly in accounts of the Mughals and I would say also among the nawabs of the Mughals. These are historic records just like our Turkish friend @dBSPL replied to my point of the Turkish serial Ertugrul's heroine not wearing a burqa and he saying that the burqa was not part of Turkish culture those hundreds of years ago. But as I said above I am just tired of all this on PDF.

 

[_Nabil_]

I am just going to stop debating such things on this forum because I am tired of doing it, to not much change, since 2014. I reply to you since it was me who tagged you in the morning.

Islam was a message of socio-economic and political progress and humanity too so you should look to the next step. We should be looking at an Earth without borders since the concept of Nation State is an artificial one first set up after the French Revolution which itself removed the monarchy in France and monarchy being an obsolete concept. And what about when humans settle Mars around 2035 ? Will you, Nabil, carry there your idea of Islam being a secluded, isolationist community or will you meld it into a cosmopolitan, advanced, unified humanity ? It is for you to think of this. Over and out.



Yes, unfortunately the very-narrow-outlook and poor information people are more prominent now on PDF.

You mentioned Danial Latifi and I remembered now that he is mentioned in an article which I posted in this thread in 2015. The article is by an Indian Christian woman who married and Indian Muslim under Islamic marriage law because that better secured her socio-economic rights in case of divorce. That contractual marriage stands against the very narrow outlook of the Deoband mullahs who last year put out a fatwa against inter-faith marriage by Muslims.

Can you tell me more about Muzaffar Ahmad because I don't know about him ?

One complaint I have against the Naxalites is that they, at least in my knowledge, didn't act against the interest-charging moneylenders who forced countless farmers to suicide and didn't act against the landlords who even today keep bonded laborers in some parts of the country.

Lastly, to bring back your point of some people not knowing the history of the Subcontinent, this morning I watched this interview of Tahira Mazhar Ali, the mother of Tariq Ali. She was in the Communist movement like I wrote earlier and in the interview she gives a nice account of the region in the 1950s including her meeting with Jinnah and the fact that in the Lahore of those times females could go places cycling without harassment. The lady interviewing also is knowledgeable about Pakistan and India. I want @khansaheeb to watch the interview.



I am aware but please read my reply to Nabil above.



While you are correct about what I feel I also will say that if you watch the old Indian serial The Sword of Tipu Sultan you will find no burqa in it. Similarly in accounts of the Mughals and I would say also among the nawabs of the Mughals. These are historic records just like our Turkish friend @dBSPL replied to my point of the Turkish serial Ertugrul's heroine not wearing a burqa and he saying that the burqa was not part of Turkish culture those hundreds of years ago. But as I said above I am just tired of all this on PDF.

Islam is for all times, all places, what's wrong with you ????

You said in a previous post that you are a Muslim, was is a typo?

 

[jamahir]

Islam is for all times, all places, what's wrong with you ????

You said in a previous post that you are a Muslim, was is a typo?

It was not a typo. I am a Communist too so I am for the unification of all humanity and that idea is really for all times. I will leave it at that. Good night.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

if we would have been following Islam which came from Almighty

This is the pivot on which the entire galaxy is lost on. The word you used is 'if'. When said religion is a quagmire I did not give the reason - well you just did. It is the 'if'.

The 'if' is the quagmire which always ends in conflict. Whose 'if'? Yours, mine, the next guy, Maulana Rizvi, TTP's version, Taliban version, Imran Khan's definition, Ayatollah Khomeni's version, Erdogan's version, whose extactly?

Because for every one you will select million others will disagree and some might even take up arms against the version you define as 'the Islam that came from Almighty'.

Just to be sure this malaise does not just apply to our times. In fact 29 years after the death of the prophet [pbuh] the Rashidun caliphate collapsed in orgy of blood.

And ever since the house of Islam is divided and searching for the true Islam.

29 years in over 1,400 years. Thus what you see is the default.

 

[nang2]

Actually, a real interfaith marriage is nearly impossible. Anyone who is devoted to his faith is very unlikely attracted to another person who is devoted to a different one. So-called interfaith marriage usually happens between people whose faith is what they were born into, not what they consciously chose.

 

[_Nabil_]

It was not a typo. I am a Communist too so I am for the unification of all humanity and that idea is really for all times. I will leave it at that. Good night.

I'm also for unification of all humanity, there is no contradiction with that concept and the Islam spirit....

 

[El Sidd]

Humans are born free and must be free to choose who they marry. The people who can have some objection, or say, before marriage are their own family which is a private matter. I believe in the Islamic rules of marriage, but it should not be the state's business to control who marries who. If people decide not to marry by Islamic rule, or by Hindu rule, or marry by one or more ways, whichever they choose, this should be none of the state's business whose role is to register marriage.

How does the Indian constitution define terms like marriage, holy matrimony, civic partnership among other denominations of human relations in the construct of a society?

What if @jamahir has a holy matrimony with Karl while being married to Shilpa whilst maintaining a civic partnership with Sherezade? Will he be lynched first or arrested first in India?

 

[PakFactor]

Tiny dick syndrome from Hindu men

View attachment 698606

LOL