Does the PN need an aircraft carrier?

[HAIDER]

If so then why are all the developed nations building carriers

Aircraft carrier is a must for Pakistan , its first line of defence from any sea based agression from enemies

You have answer in your question.. yes, Developed nation.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

You have answer in your question.. yes, Developed nation.

We will be developed in 4-6 years ... why so negative, strong carrier and navy , no one will come with in 500 miles of pakistan , and our so call problems (cross border) will end quite fast , and economy will flourish

 

[LCA Tejas]

india getting another sea carrier from russia

India is looking ahead for a total of 3 aircraft carriers... INS vikramaditya, INS Vikrant(project 71) and the next Project 71.....

 

[Kompromat]

At the moment our Economy cannot afford an Air Craft carrier which is a reality.

We need F22P's , Type 054's , Milligem Class Corvettes , X USN Frigates and U214.

Once our economy allows why we would not have an Air Craft Carrier ??

 

[Indiarox]

I see a lot of realistic arguments that PN doesn't need or can afford a ACC
Oh ya there is also a lost dreamer who needs a dose of reality

 

[Tomahawk]

I see a lot of realistic arguments that PN doesn't need or can afford a ACC
Oh ya there is also a lost dreamer who needs a dose of reality

PN ofcourse can't afford an Aircraft Carrier, the moment it would afford surely there would be a need or requirement.
So the bottom line is the affordability and not the need.

 

[mjnaushad]

don't think about that...because no country is going to give aircraft carrier as a beg to pakistan and pakistan has no huge money so that they manage it.

Indian army 20 20


Cant you guys play oneday matches anymore.

 

[MastanKhan]

It would be great as having an Aircraft carrier would allow us strategic help to our allies

Example

Bangladesh , needs help vs Burma etc or lets say Egypt needs help down the road vs pirates or some disturbance

We could hold joint naval training with Turkey more cooperation

or lets say Srilanka needs help we can visit Srilanka and send our aircraft carrier to visit there to help out vs Terrorist

Air Craft carrier is a MUST , and if we order it now the Price would be cheap vs ordering in 4-7 years from know whenhe prices will obviously double or tripple

Or lets assume that China needs some help on east coast vs some operation we can help out with our 40 fighters so frankly speaking

a)We need aircraft carrier
b)We need lot of heavy transport planes like C130

We have man power we lack the ability to transport these man power and units to front line positions

May be some country like Sudan or Nigeria needs some help fighting rebels we can send in help under UN to help our forces with air support

a) More experience for our navy and flying units ...

Hi,

" Even before we acquire the weapons system, we are already telling the world who our enemies are and against whom we are going to use it"---son---out of all the people on this board---you are one of them who disappoints me the most. What kind of strategy is that. What kind of common sense that shows. Are the young people of my motherland so callous and casual in making open threats on an open public forum. And against those nations, like Burma, who gave our soldiers the right of passage in the 71 war.

Sudan and nigeria have done nothing for us---from nigeria we get drug smugglers----from sudan---I guess osama bin laden.

The reason to get the system is extremely poor---bangladesh's economy is as good as ours---are they not man enough to do their biddings---.

Sudan and nigeria need human friendly regimes, not regimes that support them in mass murder or ethnic violence.

We expect our poster to be rational when posting and have a realistic millityary outlook when making comments about weapons systems purchase and the means of purchase.

This thread is one of the most uselss of the many useless threads that the poster has started in the last many weeks. The uselessness is due to a lack of substantative reasoning of why the nation needs the item. The purchase is being prpagated just for the REASON OF SHOW AND STRUT---LOOK AT US PAKISTANIS---HOW GREAT WE ARE---WE ARE READY TO JUMP HEAD FIRST INTO ANYONE ELSE'S TROUBLES WITHOUT THINKING TWICE---ACTUALL NOT EVEN ONCE---. We pakistanis only judge the world only by our standards and outlook---we think that all other muslim nations are incompetent nincompoops and we the pakistanis are the knight in the shining armour coming to the rescue of the damsel in distress.

Son, get out of this mindset of being the RESCUE RANGER to the muslim world---you want to do something, find a way to clean all the ***** and dirt that is lying waste in our neighbourhoos.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Hi,

" Even before we acquire the weapons system, we are already telling the world who our enemies are and against whom we are going to use it"---son---out of all the people on this board---you are one of them who disappoints me the most. What kind of strategy is that. What kind of common sense that shows. Are the young people of my motherland so callous and casual in making open threats on an open public forum. And against those nations, like Burma, who gave our soldiers the right of passage in the 71 war.

Sudan and nigeria have done nothing for us---from nigeria we get drug smugglers----from sudan---I guess osama bin laden.

The reason to get the system is extremely poor---bangladesh's economy is as good as ours---are they not man enough to do their biddings---.

Sudan and nigeria need human friendly regimes, not regimes that support them in mass murder or ethnic violence.

We expect our poster to be rational when posting and have a realistic millityary outlook when making comments about weapons systems purchase and the means of purchase.

This thread is one of the most uselss of the many useless threads that the poster has started in the last many weeks. The uselessness is due to a lack of substantative reasoning of why the nation needs the item. The purchase is being prpagated just for the REASON OF SHOW AND STRUT---LOOK AT US PAKISTANIS---HOW GREAT WE ARE---WE ARE READY TO JUMP HEAD FIRST INTO ANYONE ELSE'S TROUBLES WITHOUT THINKING TWICE---ACTUALL NOT EVEN ONCE---. We pakistanis only judge the world only by our standards and outlook---we think that all other muslim nations are incompetent nincompoops and we the pakistanis are the knight in the shining armour coming to the rescue of the damsel in distress.

Son, get out of this mindset of being the RESCUE RANGER to the muslim world---you want to do something, find a way to clean all the ***** and dirt that is lying waste in our neighbourhoos.

Valuable opinon , but every coin has two sides and I am in favor of other side

like I said we need to put downpaymet on Aircraft carrier now and recieve it by 2015/2016, we need to move our navy to be able to protect our shores

We are already knights in shinning armor as our forces do engage in UN based operations in Africa, if we have our air support via carrier perhaps we can help other nations who are our allies coupe with things such as piracy and rebels etc

Or plain and simple help our allies if needed.

Unfortunatly our navy is , under represented - we are extremely weak in our naval forces , and from my end , I would like to grow our naval wing more

A strong navy will ensure we can protect our seas - or help our allies

I don't see why we can't keep fleet of 1-2 Aircraft carriers for country with the potential and size of our nation

I would like to see an aircraft carrier , all this nonesense about , minumum detterance is illogical when our enemy is out there getting 3-4 aircraft carriers in 7 years time

And we are practically very close to a full fledged war over water in
1-2 years time , India is just waiting to continously increase the gap in weapons and army so that they can dictate what they want - we can't afford to sit back and see water shortages locally

I would prefer to have our defence needs addressed , that all

Every one wishes their country to have international presence and I just feel our nation is ready for a aircraft carrier , after all most nations had it since 1920's and its already 80-90 years too late

From my stand point - I think we deserve it since our navy has done a great job so far and its only fair that we get more recognition for our navies

We need to have at least 1 aircraft carrier -

Why can't we make a carrier ? do we not have engineers ?

The argument about cost and this and that is all balooni

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Valuable opinon , but every coin has two sides and I am in favor of other side

like I said we need to put downpaymet on Aircraft carrier now and recieve it by 2015/2016, we need to move our navy to be able to protect our shores

We are already knights in shinning armor as our forces do engage in UN based operations in Africa, if we have our air support via carrier perhaps we can help other nations who are our allies coupe with things such as piracy and rebels etc

Or plain and simple help our allies if needed.

Unfortunatly our navy is , under represented - we are extremely weak in our naval forces , and from my end , I would like to grow our naval wing more

A strong navy will ensure we can protect our seas - or help our allies

I don't see why we can't keep fleet of 1-2 Aircraft carriers for country with the potential and size of our nation

I would like to see an aircraft carrier , all this nonesense about , minumum detterance is illogical when our enemy is out there getting 3-4 aircraft carriers in 7 years time

And we are practically very close to a full fledged war over water in
1-2 years time , India is just waiting to continously increase the gap in weapons and army so that they can dictate what they want - we can't afford to sit back and see water shortages locally

I would prefer to have our defence needs addressed , that all

Every one wishes their country to have international presence and I just feel our nation is ready for a aircraft carrier , after all most nations had it since 1920's and its already 80-90 years too late

From my stand point - I think we deserve it since our navy has done a great job so far and its only fair that we get more recognition for our navies

We need to have at least 1 aircraft carrier -

Why can't we make a carrier ? do we not have engineers ?

The argument about cost and this and that is all balooni

Friend, you are either living in a fool’s paradise or are totally unaware of the ground realities -- we cannot even afford to send our kids to school let alone buy and maintain a carrier group! 45+% of our population are living below US$1 a day and we are talking about rescuing Nigeria and Sudan!!!!!!

We should not dream of becoming regional policemen unless we get our house in order first! We are already supporting an armed forces structure which is way beyond our current means.

Let us use this money (If we have this money for arguments' sake) on building education institutes of excellence and produce engineers, scientists, economists to get us out of this mess.

We can all act like a recalcitrant kids but the reality would not change -- we should concentrate on our economy -- be a world economic power - and think about being the "Knight in shining amour" for the regional countries after we achieve economic freedom.

All those countries that are quoted by you who have a/c carriers are either developed and have overseas dominions/islands to protect, or are fast becoming developed. Even than we have the case of Japan, Germany, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. that are developed -- have a definite need for safe-guarding their trade but have not opted for the ACG's and worked their way around this problem by forging alliances through interntional politicking/diplomacy.

Have you ever thought that why USSR never had a carrier group of any repute during its 50 odds years of existence or for that matter the Chinese???? USSR has a relatively smaller coast with inland seas and oceans/seas that are blocked off during winters, contiguous borders with its important trading partners, and vast oil reserves. They really did not need a ACG until they started projecting power in and around Africa. The economic survival/dependencies dictate power projection priorities.

I do hope that your "Dreams" get fulfilled but be very realistic when discussing things on such types of forums/communities, it directly reflects upon your image on the forum my friend. I hope you will not take my comments negatively -- they are not intended to be negative but are an attempt to provoke a different thought process in you. You seem to have a fire inside you that needs to be channelised. Take care

 

[MastanKhan]

We are already knights in shinning armor as our forces do engage in UN based operations in Africa, Or plain and simple help our allies if needed.



Why can't we make a carrier ? do we not have engineers ?

Hi,

Our knights in shining armour are there to serve and make a better living---working for UN, they don't wear a shining armour, but are harbingers of peace and act as a police force.

Secondly, I begin to undrstand you a little better---I guess you donot know the abilities or the lack of abilities of our engineers.

No---our engineers donot have the ability or the capability to make a small battle ship aka frigate---they are just begining to learn about it---in normal language we say that THE BABY HAS JUST STARTED TO CRAWL---that is where the standard of our engineering is today and will be there for a while.

A few years ago, they learnt the art of welding a submarine joints---today, half of it would be forgotten due to a lack of excersize---learing to weld submarine is a form of art that is basically the ultimate in welding---or it is the holy grail of welding---carrier ship welding comes next to it. Pak has no experience in it either at all.

Neither does it have any experience in structural design, structural engineering, metallurgy and all other aspects of metals and ship building.

For young men, the most important thing would be to find a way to clean up the area that they live in and find groups of dedicated young men who would help each other in managing and maintaining the cleanliness of the surroundings.

 

[monitor]

At the moment our Economy cannot afford an Air Craft carrier which is a reality.

We need F22P's , Type 054's , Milligem Class Corvettes , X USN Frigates and U214.

Once our economy allows why we would not have an Air Craft Carrier ??

i agree with you. Right at this moment your economy cannot afford a aircraft carrier . but there should have some plan to have a aircraft carrier in future even though its a small carrier like british invincible class, because india is having at least three aircraft carrier very soon
i wonder what would hapend when they will jump over you with all there mig-29k .and creat havoc are you prepared ?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Friend, you are either living in a fool’s paradise or are totally unaware of the ground realities -- we cannot even afford to send our kids to school let alone buy and maintain a carrier group! 45+% of our population are living below US$1 a day and we are talking about rescuing Nigeria and Sudan!!!!!!

We should not dream of becoming regional policemen unless we get our house in order first! We are already supporting an armed forces structure which is way beyond our current means.

Let us use this money (If we have this money for arguments' sake) on building education institutes of excellence and produce engineers, scientists, economists to get us out of this mess.

We can all act like a recalcitrant kids but the reality would not change -- we should concentrate on our economy -- be a world economic power - and think about being the "Knight in shining amour" for the regional countries after we achieve economic freedom.

All those countries that are quoted by you who have a/c carriers are either developed and have overseas dominions/islands to protect, or are fast becoming developed. Even than we have the case of Japan, Germany, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia etc. that are developed -- have a definite need for safe-guarding their trade but have not opted for the ACG's and worked their way around this problem by forging alliances through interntional politicking/diplomacy.

Have you ever thought that why USSR never had a carrier group of any repute during its 50 odds years of existence or for that matter the Chinese???? USSR has a relatively smaller coast with inland seas and oceans/seas that are blocked off during winters, contiguous borders with its important trading partners, and vast oil reserves. They really did not need a ACG until they started projecting power in and around Africa. The economic survival/dependencies dictate power projection priorities.

I do hope that your "Dreams" get fulfilled but be very realistic when discussing things on such types of forums/communities, it directly reflects upon your image on the forum my friend. I hope you will not take my comments negatively -- they are not intended to be negative but are an attempt to provoke a different thought process in you. You seem to have a fire inside you that needs to be channelised. Take care

No negative sense taken

We clearly live in two different worlds I would prefer to live in the world where we are a regional force , if we were destined to be one in 70s and were derailed I am sure we can rise up again

a) There are ample schools in Pakistan
b) Majority of Pakistani earn a heck enough to live well
c) And we have a great industry , we just have energy shortage
which is expected to correct itself by 2013

My suggestion is to order an aircraft carrier now when due to world
economic crisis the prices will be lower vs 10 years from now

Our nation has enough cash , if that was not true why are politicians and diplomats charging 1 lakh rupee / day on living expenses ???

Thats all - there is enough cash in Pakistan

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Hi,

Our knights in shining armour are there to serve and make a better living---working for UN, they don't wear a shining armour, but are harbingers of peace and act as a police force.

Secondly, I begin to undrstand you a little better---I guess you donot know the abilities or the lack of abilities of our engineers.

No---our engineers donot have the ability or the capability to make a small battle ship aka frigate---they are just begining to learn about it---in normal language we say that THE BABY HAS JUST STARTED TO CRAWL---that is where the standard of our engineering is today and will be there for a while.

A few years ago, they learnt the art of welding a submarine joints---today, half of it would be forgotten due to a lack of excersize---learing to weld submarine is a form of art that is basically the ultimate in welding---or it is the holy grail of welding---carrier ship welding comes next to it. Pak has no experience in it either at all.

Neither does it have any experience in structural design, structural engineering, metallurgy and all other aspects of metals and ship building.

For young men, the most important thing would be to find a way to clean up the area that they live in and find groups of dedicated young men who would help each other in managing and maintaining the cleanliness of the surroundings.

Well I understand your opinion mastan , but our engineers are quite gifted , I believe in our national engineers, as they have constructed the whole Middle east and continue to be utalized across the world for international projects.

You might say that we can't retain such talent, which I agree 100% but if we recall that force of engineers and kick start national projects , I don't see why we can't build the new age Pyramids in our back yards.

All you need is a dock constructed and heavy lifting machines close to docks , people built aircraft carriers in 1930's ...

Our Local Engineering lacks the heavy lifting machinery , cranes and other elements
Otherthen that provided you build the base of the carrier , its not really that much of a great deal , there are 3-4 samples in China , our engineers can go visit these for understanding the carrier structure

Any thing can be build when you put your mind and engineers on that issue

The aircraft purchase I suggest will be done 100% in France , we can send our engineers to work on Chinese Aircraft project for learning , A team of 10-20 engineers shoudl already be in China .. for apprenticeship on seeing how chinese engineers are going about the aircraft carrier development work


Reference: http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/sb.htm
KSEW is basically designed to build and repair ships. Since 1957 when it commenced its commercial production, it has built over 430 vessels of different types and sizes for different nations. It is well equipped to build various types of ships upto 26,000 TDW including Tugs, Dredgers, Hopper Barges, Ferries, Fishing Trawlers, Launches & Special Purpose Craft. There are three Ship Building berths, each equipped with cranes and allied facilities where construction of vessels can be undertaken simultaneously

Reference:
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/products/submar.htm(Subs)
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/products/jcmb.htm (Missile Boats) 200 tons
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/products/facm.htm (Missile Boats) 200 tons
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/products/f22p.htm (Frigate) 2500 tons


Floating Dock construction can lift 2000 tons up in air and move it about
http://www.karachishipyard.com.pk/products/xvfd.htm
engineering achivement made in pakistan

You don't build these if you don't know how to weld or have no knowledge of mettelurgy

So clearly we know how to put the ships together , and it puts to rust the comments about the weilding metals , you make it seem Pakistan engineering is a joke lol Half of UAE engineering projects are done by Pakistanis

In 70's we developed China's ships from this same port now china is helping us

As for cleaning the streets parts its an honor to help clean our country , people who destroy its streets & beauti need to be shot
including all the illegal constructions

In order to build larger ships we just need heavy , equipment cranes we already have steeles milss and second is also build now

And most importantly you need will power to do something -

But in any case, Pakitan should purchase the Aircraft carrier not build it from scratch , I suggest send in team to take part in Chinese craft project to learn from things focus on F22P frigate building & Type 054A construction

But order a Carrier from France - invest into that as it will help us down the line

 

[MastanKhan]

Well I understand your opinion mastan , but our engineers are quite gifted , I believe in our national engineers, as they have constructed the whole Middle east and continue to be utalized across the world for international projects.

You might say that we can't retain such talent, which I agree 100% but if we recall that force of engineers and kick start national projects , I don't see why we can't build the new age Pyramids in our back yards.

All you need is a dock constructed and heavy lifting machines close to docks , people built aircraft carriers in 1930's ...

Our Local Engineering lacks the heavy lifting machinery , cranes and other elements



Hi,

Talk is cheap---pakistan has yet been able to manufactue a BICYCLE CHAIN of any quality---.

People who built ac carriers in 1930 has centuries and centuries of history of ship building---ships which went on trans oceanic voyages hunders of years ago.

You really really disappoint me kid---instead of listening and learning something, you are taking the standard pakistani approach---talk talk talk---without any substance, without any basics, without any fundamentals, without any knowlwedge of the machine and what it takes to start from scratch.

It is so sad that when young pakistanis blabber out on world forum and mention about things without any substance and resource just to look big, talk big, look important.