Does the PN need an aircraft carrier?

[alimobin memon]

are indian sea harriers better than pak navy mirages?

 

[Markus]

Its all about money.

We are discussing this because Pakistan really does not have any additional funds to spare for a CBG.

If Pakistan would have been a 3 trillion USD economy, most probably Pakistan would have had one CBG already roaming in the Arabian sea and maybe another one in the Indian ocean.

Its not that Pakistan does not need it, the fact is that it cannot afford it.

 

[Vibs]

are indian sea harriers better than pak navy mirages?

Depends on the war arena. Read about the Falkland wars. British Sea Harriers were up against the more advanced Argentinian Dassault Mirages. What no one realized is that Harriers can actually come to a stand still and hover in the air giving them a massive advantage in a dogfight. The Mirages were totally routed in the dog fight.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The harriers are slow moving , things really low quality fighter jets , Mirages are probably better with harriers the advantage is just the vertical landing - The mirages we have can carry Missiles that can dent a big hole in Indian ships if need be , big enough to sink them

With some of the advance Missiles Pakistan Air force has , the harrier would probably be sunk underwater before they even see any of our planes

Harrier's speed is marginally more then Helicopters I mean these things are slow and out dated

The only problem we have is that there is a gap of 10-30 minutes before the mirages would reach the ships out in mission at sea etc - while with a aircraft carrier , you have instant air craft launch and defenses up

Harriers are just marginally better then helicopters

Against a real jet fighter like Mirage or F7 , or our advance planes like F16 and Thunders , in future J10b the harrier will be nothing more then a dead goose, but I believe that plane will be decommissioned by Indians as they are also retiring the carrier that has the harriers on it

Indians just purchased the old carrier for prestige , and because the deck was so small they could not fly decent planes off it so bought the harriers (to compensate for things sorta speak)

Harriers probably would be advantageous when there is a situation when a opposing ship did not had any air defenses , and the harrier just came about and did some damage , but I do believe we have hand held missiles which would make short work of a plane like Harrier in short notice

For us the first piece of puzzle really are

a) Decent Frigates (11-12 is what we have , we need it to be 20 )
b) Destroyers (There are talks of 2-4 ships on lease)
c) Submarines (3 we got , we need another 6 , to be close to 10 submarines)
d) J11 (Air Support - I mean this is just matter of time)

Once we attain these basics , after that I suppose we can say I mean do we really need a carrier

Indians might feel they need to buy a carrier but its not a must must for us not untill we first have a basic Navy created properly armed

 

[Markus]

The harriers are slow moving , things really low quality fighter jets , Mirages are probably better with harriers the advantage is just the vertical landing - The mirages we have can carry Missiles that can dent a big hole in Indian ships if need be , big enough to sink them

Harriers are just marginally better then helicopters

Against a real jet fighter like Mirage or F7 , or our advance planes like F16 and Thunders , in future J10b the harrier will be nothing more then a dead goose, but I believe that plane will be decommissioned by Indians as they are also retiring the carrier that has the harriers on it

Mig-29Ks are here to replace them, though they wont be air-borne till INS Vikramaditya is here.

 

[Vibs]

The harriers are slow moving , things really low quality fighter jets , Mirages are probably better with harriers the advantage is just the vertical landing - The mirages we have can carry Missiles that can dent a big hole in Indian ships if need be , big enough to sink them

Harriers are just marginally better then helicopters

Against a real jet fighter like Mirage or F7 , or our advance planes like F16 and Thunders , in future J10b the harrier will be nothing more then a dead goose, but I believe that plane will be decommissioned by Indians as they are also retiring the carrier that has the harriers on it

Indians just purchased the old carrier for prestige , and because the deck was so small they could not fly decent planes off it so bought the harriers (to compensate for things sorta speak)

I never said Harriers were advanced jets and yes India is planning to Phase them out. But they are unique and I'm just stating facts of an actual combat. Within Visual range combat abilities of the Harrier is pretty good. This is because the best altitude for a Harrier is much lower than a Mirage. In the Falkland wars the Mirage III's (although inferior to present day Mirages) were quite advanced compared to Harriers. Yet the unique manouverability and Handling of the Harriers allowed it to get the better of the Mirages.
Current Mirages have BVR attack capabilities. So have a massive advantage over harriers. Which is why they will be replaced by Mig 29K and Naval LCA's in the future.
As for the value of the aircraft carrier, well it has been debated quite a lot but it does allow us air superiority in the open Ocean, something which other regional powers do not have.

 

[Markus]

This is why VTOL F-35 is such a important machine to have.

 

[Vibs]

This is why VTOL F-35 is such a important machine to have.

Not again. I think there is a thread debating the value of a F-35 on a carrier already.

 

[tjpf]

The harriers are slow moving , things really low quality fighter jets , Mirages are probably better with harriers the advantage is just the vertical landing - The mirages we have can carry Missiles that can dent a big hole in Indian ships if need be , big enough to sink them

With some of the advance Missiles Pakistan Air force has , the harrier would probably be sunk underwater before they even see any of our planes

Harrier's speed is marginally more then Helicopters I mean these things are slow and out dated

The only problem we have is that there is a gap of 10-30 minutes before the mirages would reach the ships out in mission at sea etc - while with a aircraft carrier , you have instant air craft launch and defenses up

Harriers are just marginally better then helicopters

Against a real jet fighter like Mirage or F7 , or our advance planes like F16 and Thunders , in future J10b the harrier will be nothing more then a dead goose, but I believe that plane will be decommissioned by Indians as they are also retiring the carrier that has the harriers on it

Indians just purchased the old carrier for prestige , and because the deck was so small they could not fly decent planes off it so bought the harriers (to compensate for things sorta speak)

Harriers probably would be advantageous when there is a situation when a opposing ship did not had any air defenses , and the harrier just came about and did some damage , but I do believe we have hand held missiles which would make short work of a plane like Harrier in short notice

For us the first piece of puzzle really are

a) Decent Frigates (11-12 is what we have , we need it to be 20 )
b) Destroyers (There are talks of 2-4 ships on lease)
c) Submarines (3 we got , we need another 6 , to be close to 10 submarines)
d) J11 (Air Support - I mean this is just matter of time)

Once we attain these basics , after that I suppose we can say I mean do we really need a carrier

Indians might feel they need to buy a carrier but its not a must must for us not untill we first have a basic Navy created properly armed

you guys couldn't afford that itself!!!!!!!!!!!!!! anyways ACC is a distant dream for pakistan because of cost and purpose factor..... Now that China has aquired an ACC USA and WEST will develop weapon tech which will make ACC redundant and with no practicality in coming years......ACC has no future

 

[untitled]

Depends on the war arena. Read about the Falkland wars. British Sea Harriers were up against the more advanced Argentinian Dassault Mirages. What no one realized is that Harriers can actually come to a stand still and hover in the air giving them a massive advantage in a dogfight. The Mirages were totally routed in the dog fight.

A Sea Harrier would never hover in a dog fight... It may use VIFF ... which if not used properly can have disastrous consequences

The Mirage has the advantage of speed and better performance at high altitude.

There were only 2 dogfights between Sea Harriers and Mirages during the Falklands war.

1) Sea Harriers intercepted two high flying Mirages over the Falklands...The Sea Harrier did not climb to engage their high flying adversaries.
The Mirages came down but were outperformed by the better training of the British Navy pilots.... one was Mirage was shot down... the other badly damaged (the damaged Mirage tried to land at the airfield on the Falklands but was shot down by friendly fire)

2) The second instance was a Dagger (Israeli copy of the Mirage V) engaging Sea Harriers... the pilot fired his (Shahfrir) missile well out of range at the Sea Harriers. The harriers were able to evade the missile and shoot the dagger down.

After that the Mirage 3 because lack of air refueling capability were not allowed to engage British fighters in dogfights and returned only a limited number of times to the Falkland Islands..... their primary task was to defend the Argentine mainland from Vulcan attacks.

The Dagger were used in only for anti ship role... many were shot down by the Sea Harriers who tailed them and shot them down

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

This is why VTOL F-35 is such a important machine to have.

F-35 once this machine is 100% in use, we will see new strategy in warfare which will just focusing on destroying airfields as oppose to planes no runways no launching of your fancy planes

But these tactics are already in use , just perhaps the emphasis will be even more , to out date the 4th generation fighters

May be the SAMs will be more importance then to protect airfields

There is a reason why UNCLE SAM is big on vertical landing platform

 

[ejaz007]

PN does not need an aircraft carrier since we do not have a distant enemy. Our enemy is quite close to our border and our land based fighters can reach the targets. Also we have a small detachment of fighters for supporting navy and these are quite adequate for the time being.

 

[Markus]

F-35 once this machine is 100% in use, we will see new strategy in warfare which will just focusing on destroying airfields as oppose to planes no runways no launching of your fancy planes

But these tactics are already in use , just perhaps the emphasis will be even more , to out date the 4th generation fighters

May be the SAMs will be more importance then to protect airfields

Point I tried to made was that Sea Harriers provided VTOL but was sub-sonic.

The F-35's would offer the same feature PLUS many capabilities and that too at super sonic speeds.

VTOL is a great capability to have and can save a lot of time especially during war.

 

[zombieland]

Thats correct, an AC is not worth looking at our small coastline... submarines and stealth boats are sufficient to counter all threats ...

I mean really unless we are planning on a world domination which we are not we don't need many ships

20 Frigates, 4 destroyers, 10-12 submarines, and 50 J11 is just about right for our needs as a navy perhaps may be addition of 20 Stealth missile boat and that is , its perfect for our defensive needs as a nation.

Aircraft carrier is just too costly , and its an out dated platform , specially as I stated , it can be knocked out with 3-4 Aircraft carrier killer missiles or even a nuclear strike on carrier , so you can cost 5-10 billion dollar damage to someone with one strike

Aircraft carriers are not that special weapon which they were once upon a time in world war 2

Worse come to worse to patrol the Somali/ Saudi waters , we can have joint patrols with Saudi Navy or Chinese Navy ships but other then that I just do not see carrier as a must

20 Frigates, 4 Destroyers, and 12 submarines , 20 stealth missile boats would do fine provided J11 supports these ships form GWADAR and Karachi ports

China has a different role in world standing , and Pakistan has a defensive role over all.

China can build 12 carriers , and maintain them as it has a vast shore line and its in middle of many nations , while Pakistan has a small shore line , and so we can cover and defend our side with good round army of frigates, destroyers and submarines.

But it would be great to see 1 Chinese carrier always visiting Pakistani waters now and then

 

[Vibs]

A Sea Harrier would never hover in a dog fight... It may use VIFF ... which if not used properly can have disastrous consequences

The Mirage has the advantage of speed and better performance at high altitude.

There were only 2 dogfights between Sea Harriers and Mirages during the Falklands war.

1) Sea Harriers intercepted two high flying Mirages over the Falklands...The Sea Harrier did not climb to engage their high flying adversaries.
The Mirages came down but were outperformed by the better training of the British Navy pilots.... one was Mirage was shot down... the other badly damaged (the damaged Mirage tried to land at the airfield on the Falklands but was shot down by friendly fire)

2) The second instance was a Dagger (Israeli copy of the Mirage V) engaging Sea Harriers... the pilot fired his (Shahfrir) missile well out of range at the Sea Harriers. The harriers were able to evade the missile and shoot the dagger down.

After that the Mirage 3 because lack of air refueling capability were not allowed to engage British fighters in dogfights and returned only a limited number of times to the Falkland Islands..... their primary task was to defend the Argentine mainland from Vulcan attacks.

The Dagger were used in only for anti ship role... many were shot down by the Sea Harriers who tailed them and shot them down

Actually they sort of did "hover" or at least made use of the mechanism. Tactics such as the 'Viff' (Vectored in Forward Flight) using the nozzles normally used for vertical flight for braking and other directions proved decisive in dogfights. Moreover, the British pilots had superior air-combat training, one manifestation of which was that they thought they noticed Argentinian pilots occasionally releasing weapons outside of their operating parameters. This is now thought to have been Mirages releasing external fuel tanks rather than weapons, and turning away from conflict with the Sea Harrier. This later reduced their capability to fight an effective campaign against the Sea Harrier due to reduced range and lack of external fuel tanks.