Does Pakistan needs a secret Ops overseas hit squad?

[That Guy]

Link I posted before, such units exist, to cause chaos and terror, to achieve certain goal in certain region either political or economic. Taking out someone is a rookie's jobs for them. You can't label an organization that doesn't exist.

Could you link it again? I can't find it.

Secret organizations exist everywhere, and we know about them, because it's hard to hide in this information era. Delta force, CIA black sites, NSA spying...etc. To say that these organizations would be completely invisible, is to say that putting a single curtain on a single window, will cover the entire house's windows.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Could you link it again? I can't find it.

Secret organizations exist everywhere, and we know about them, because it's hard to hide in this information era. Delta force, CIA black sites, NSA spying...etc. To say that these organizations would be completely invisible, is to say that putting a single curtain on a single window, will cover the entire house's windows.

You knew about those that are either declassified or disbanded.
https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2012/02/jsoc-americas-secret-lawless-army/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29414-2005Jan22.html

You are mixing lot of things. Every element of Intel community has his own specific function.There is a reason US IC consists of 17 departments or elements. They complement each other but all of them have their specific task and budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

 

[That Guy]

You knew about those that are either declassified or disbanded.
https://www.liberty.edu/champion/2012/02/jsoc-americas-secret-lawless-army/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29414-2005Jan22.html

You are mixing lot of things. Every element of Intel community has his own specific function.There is a reason US IC consists of 17 departments or elements. They complement each other but all of them have their specific task and budget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community

Delta force has neither been declassified, nor disbanded.

I'm not mixing anything, your own links prove you wrong. The fact that we know about these organizations,through your article, your entire argument falls apart.

Besides, comparing apples to oranges. Pakistan and the US are in different leagues of their own.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Delta force has neither been declassified, nor disbanded.

I'm not mixing anything, your own links prove you wrong. The fact that we know about these organizations,through your article, your entire argument falls apart.

Besides, comparing apples to oranges. Pakistan and the US are in different leagues of their own.

lol. There is nothing something super special secret about so called Delta force, it's just another SOCOM detachment of US Army, made famous by hollywood just like Seal Team 6. I am not presenting any argument neither I am proving anything here. Just responded to you with an open source article on your request. Since your title says "PDF think tank analyst". I thought you might be a veteran, or have some professional insight of defence related matters and can do digging on your own. Apparently, you are just another fanboy like rest of the 98% on this forum.

 

[That Guy]

lol. There is nothing something super special secret about so called Delta force, it's just another SOCOM detachment of US Army, made famous by hollywood just like Seal Team 6. I am not presenting any argument neither I am proving anything here. Just responded to you with an open source article on your request. Since your title says "PDF think tank analyst". I thought you might be a veteran, or have some professional insight of defence related matters and can do digging on your own. Apparently, you are just another fanboy like rest of the 98% on this forum.

Really? Not only are you going to simply dismiss my argument, you're going to make ridiculous attacks against me?

What is wrong with you? Why is it that every time I present an argument the other person can't beat, they always resort to dismissing my argument and then name calling?

No matter what you call Delta force, it fits your criteria, thus your dismissal is completely irrelevant.

 

[Amaa'n]

A proven set of capability to neutralize HVTs in foreign countries exists. Throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s various HVTs were neutralized in a number of countries. People like Tarek Fatah are just circus clowns, their job is to carry out media stunts in return for a retirement package. Stated capability is not deployed against circus clowns, it is deployed against elements who are posing an unavoidable threat to your foreign or domestic objectives or are aiding terrorism.

Such HVTs are most often protected by the secret services of their host countries who also provide armed cover for their stay so they are free to carry out their activities in Pakistan which makes it hard for them to be intercepted. Most international players do have such capabilities often called in the pop culture as the "Black Ops". Having established the existence of this capability, i must stress though that neutralizing an HVT in an XYZ country is not always a "solution", though it may be a tempting mirage of a solution.

Mossad has been operating such units throughout its existence, so much so that in Israeli intelligence community, assassinations are considered a form of 'art'. Mossad can also be credited with making Israel more "unsafe" through such stunts because they draw way too much unwanted attention while offering little tactical advantages to shift the scales on a given operation.

It is relatively easy to neutralize a HVT in a foreign country from an operational point of view, heck even MQM can do it and see how it turned out for them. Whats not so easy is to "pacify" the HVT or to make him/her "irrelevant" to for example a terrorist organization in Pakistan. While assassinations offer a quick impression of a fix and domestic public does get to see and smirk over it, the problem doesn't go away. If your aim is to solve the problem then you need to take a subtle, less deadly approach to end the conflict or an insurgency.

@somebozo @Hyperion @Icarus @balixd

the idea is not simple as it seems -- when you about killing people with Hit squad especially in a country like Pakistan and that too by 'The Mighty devil ISI" - you are going to face the wrath of Media Anchorperson ---- the likes of Hamid Mir and Asma Jhangir and Javed Ch. will be taking Suo Moto of these heinous acts of Military and will be calling out for an Open trail ---

We tried this Hit Squad thing in Balochistan and look where that got us, your Generals where made to stand trail in Supreme Court of Pakistan, questioned as if they had committed a crime.

you go about killing HVTs and too many mouths in Media will start speculating and next time a hit is made by a Third Country intel unit on one of the Media persons - they are going to call it all on you ---- we are on a very thin ice over here ----

The only way forward and the key to success for such ops is when you have Political backing --- PM needs to be on board, and he would be made aware of activity of this team ---- a close circle of aides to be involved --- this way if shit hits the fan, we will have PM and Interior Ministry to clean it up .... but given the deep shit PM is already in with Karachi Op and being accused of running a Noon Action Plan in karachi he will have to thing million times to go on board with this ------

Ever Heard of Secret Army of Northern Virginia. They worked directly for Rumsfeld & DIA. I knew Pakistani who did tours with this unit to many countries including Pakistan. They had unlimited funds, no accountability, if caught they were Terrorist to even CIA and FBI until DIA come save their butts.

Secret Unit Expands Rumsfeld's Domain (washingtonpost.com)

JSOC: America’s secret lawless army – The Liberty Champion

@Horus @That Guy @MastanKhan @Khafee @Hyperion

what my study on the team tells me is that ISA / Centra Spike / Tron Victor or as it goes today by Team Orange , was never a Hit team, it was an Intelligence gathering team, who would do the ground work for the strike team -----
the strike team had been JSOC

these are your Reactive Teams, we are talking about Proactive team

We already do; they are called the Zarrar company but are very classified.

 

[Neutron]

the idea is not simple as it seems -- when you about killing people with Hit squad especially in a country like Pakistan and that too by 'The Mighty devil ISI" - you are going to face the wrath of Media Anchorperson ---- the likes of Hamid Mir and Asma Jhangir and Javed Ch. will be taking Suo Moto of these heinous acts of Military and will be calling out for an Open trail ---

We tried this Hit Squad thing in Balochistan and look where that got us, your Generals where made to stand trail in Supreme Court of Pakistan, questioned as if they had committed a crime.

you go about killing HVTs and too many mouths in Media will start speculating and next time a hit is made by a Third Country intel unit on one of the Media persons - they are going to call it all on you ---- we are on a very thin ice over here ----

The only way forward and the key to success for such ops is when you have Political backing --- PM needs to be on board, and he would be made aware of activity of this team ---- a close circle of aides to be involved --- this way if shit hits the fan, we will have PM and Interior Ministry to clean it up .... but given the deep shit PM is already in with Karachi Op and being accused of running a Noon Action Plan in karachi he will have to thing million times to go on board with this ------


what my study on the team tells me is that ISA / Centra Spike / Tron Victor or as it goes today by Team Orange , was never a Hit team, it was an Intelligence gathering team, who would do the ground work for the strike team -----
the strike team had been JSOC

these are your Reactive Teams, we are talking about Proactive team

You don't have to take responsibility for secret operation. Create someone or control someone to accept responsibility of these acts and neutralize HVT with special secret squad within or outside this country.
For example if squad A, task is to neutralize HVT in foreign country..........and you think there will be the backlash of this incident .......solve it amicably........
Use media cell of non state actors to accept the responsibility of these acts as well as create perception of threat to these HVTs from anyother direction.
If HVT is someone most powerful in the world ......you require more careful approach to protect your country from any backlash. In this case infiltrate or plant your top assassin in organization of anyother country and leave trail of the incident to that organization.

 

[Genghis khan1]

what my study on the team tells me is that ISA / Centra Spike / Tron Victor or as it goes today by Team Orange , was never a Hit team, it was an Intelligence gathering team, who would do the ground work for the strike team -----
the strike team had been JSOC
these are your Reactive Teams, we are talking about Proactive team

Bhai jan, I just can't type here much but according to bahi sahib I knew,some of these units were assigned to take out civil structure, recruit asset or to create chaos in the host country for host country to take certain action or to kick start certain chain of event. For. example APS attack or 2009 Karachi Asura jaloos attack. Another misconception, spread by online article is that you have to be a hardcore operators from some Special ops units for these assignments. Fact is that bhai sahib was just an enlisted artillery gunner and was picked up after his first Iraq deployment due to his racial and linguistic set of skill. I also saw one girl from Karachi -muslim of a minority sect- who joined IDF and later came undercover with a US company to carry out missions in Pakistan. 2009, she even uploaded her pic in IDF and her pre-mission pics in a F-6/1 house Islamabad, standing with her team in full gear and automatic rifle.

BTW List of ISI blunders in Gen Shuja Pasha time is very long. It wouldn't be waste of time that PA set-up a commission and do an internal inquiry on Gen.Pasha's role and of events that took place during his watch.

 

[Genghis khan1]

@Horus @WebMaster since you guys are running the show, I want to say, idk many people on this forum. I just don't want to tag random people based on their ranks since ranks <not equal> credentials. But if you know any defence professional or a senior veteran here please tag them. I want to know if all this babbling of mine make sense to anyone and can some relate.

 

[Amaa'n]

Bhai jan, I just can't type here much but according to bahi sahib I knew,some of these units were assigned to take out civil structure, recruit asset or to create chaos in the host country for host country to take certain action or to kick start certain chain of event. For. example APS attack or 2009 Karachi Asura jaloos attack. Another misconception, spread by online article is that you have to be a hardcore operators from some Special ops units for these assignments. Fact is that bhai sahib was just an enlisted artillery gunner and was picked up after his first Iraq deployment due to his racial and linguistic set of skill. I also saw one girl from Karachi -muslim of a minority sect- who joined IDF and later came undercover with a US company to carry out missions in Pakistan. 2009, she even uploaded her pic in IDF and her pre-mission pics in a F-6/1 house Islamabad, standing with her team in full gear and automatic rifle.

BTW List of ISI blunders in Gen Shuja Pasha time is very long. It wouldn't be waste of time that PA set-up a commission and do an internal inquiry on Gen.Pasha's role and of events that took place during his watch.

You need to learn to understand and take other people opinion too....nobody will deny what you above have said but what i had said earlier was completely different off this........

I have said and say this again, going by the history Centra Spike was a highly specialized intelligence unit sent out to gather intelligence, please share one case here where this team was used to reck havoc in the host country, i would love to read on them...... If you need a vetern here then let me call out @jhungary to shed some light on the subject......
There are many other units that could have done the job, jsoc operators are assigned to cia to conduct such covert ops, a case which you have mentioned above ......

But do we really need such units??? Becuase i think you may have forgotten, but such unit raised Mujahideen.....look where that got

@Horus @WebMaster since you guys are running the show, I want to say, idk many people on this forum. I just don't want to tag random people based on their ranks since ranks <not equal> credentials. But if you know any defence professional or a senior veteran here please tag them. I want to know if all this babbling of mine make sense to anyone and can some relate.

What i love about this forum is we don't have to explain who we are or what we do, what matters more is what we write......you are more than welc8me to disagree with me, but dont forget you yourself are among that 98% fanboys on this forum too

 

[Pulsar]

I am thinking secret ops hit squad like Mossad going around hunting terrorist in capitals which are providing them safe heaven...There are many abettors of terrorism in Pakistan which needs to be silenced..when are we going to get out of this pacifist mode and get a little proactive.?

What is the ISI doing? Isn't it their job to ferret out terrorists? Aren't they supposed to be the premier intel agency in Pakistan? Why make another so called 'hit squad'? Is it because the ISI has screwed up? Or have they become incompetent or defunct? Or has their role been changed to now only aiding their 'strategic assets' for creating trouble in neighboring countries like Afghanistan, India, Iran etc?

 

[Genghis khan1]

You need to learn to understand and take other people opinion too....nobody will deny what you above have said but what i had said earlier was completely different off this........

I have said and say this again, going by the history Centra Spike was a highly specialized intelligence unit sent out to gather intelligence, please share one case here where this team was used to reck havoc in the host country, i would love to read on them...... If you need a vetern here then let me call out @jhungary to shed some light on the subject......
There are many other units that could have done the job, jsoc operators are assigned to cia to conduct such covert ops, a case which you have mentioned above ......

But do we really need such units??? Becuase i think you may have forgotten, but such unit raised Mujahideen.....look where that got


What i love about this forum is we don't have to explain who we are or what we do, what matters more is what we write......you are more than welc8me to disagree with me, but dont forget you yourself are among that 98% fanboys on this forum too

I am neither disagreeing with you nor my reply was meant to counter your reply, it was just additional info based on my experience. Infact I respect the fact that you took time to look it up. I think you took tagging thing the wrong way. Actually by tagging request, I am looking for a Pakistani veteran, with professional knowledge of defence issues who can shed some light on all this mumbo jumbo . Seem like most of them had drunk Satu and were at sleep until OBL raid shook them up. JSOC is not assigned to CIA, they work for DIA. what I mentioned in previous reply is actually all illegal in international law and JSOC as a legitimate military command will not directly involve in this.
... and Nope, I am not a fanboy, I am a combat veteran. Been there, Done that. Seen it,not all but surly the most. when it comes to Navy and Airforce, than yes, I am a fanboy.

 

[Sinnerman108]

I am thinking secret ops hit squad like Mossad going around hunting terrorist in capitals which are providing them safe heaven...There are many abettors of terrorism in Pakistan which needs to be silenced..when are we going to get out of this pacifist mode and get a little proactive.?

Overseas countries unlike Pakistan keep a very good computerized record of who enters their country through which port and for what reason.
This record is then supplemented with bio metric and other records.

Thus operating in any worthwhile country, and then getting out of there is nearly impossible.

 

[Amaa'n]

I am neither disagreeing with you nor my reply was meant to counter your reply, it was just additional info based on my experience. Infact I respect the fact that you took time to look it up. I think you took tagging thing the wrong way. Actually by tagging request, I am looking for a Pakistani veteran, with professional knowledge of defence issues who can shed some light on all this mumbo jumbo . Seem like most of them had drunk Satu and were at sleep until OBL raid shook them up. JSOC is not assigned to CIA, they work for DIA. what I mentioned in previous reply is actually all illegal in international law and JSOC as a legitimate military command will not directly involve in this.
... and Nope, I am not a fanboy, I am a combat veteran. Been there, Done that. Seen it,not all but surly the most. when it comes to Navy and Airforce, than yes, I am a fanboy.

I agree that JSOC is with DIA but then again they can only be sent to a country where US has direct conflict of interest or declared war, a case of afg,iraq,yemen ..... They are legally co ered to operate but in an ally country like Pakistan JSOC operatirs were assigned to CIA so they can be designated as spies hence legally covered to operate in the area, a case of davis that surfaced.....
Younare right about tenure of Gen.Pasha, all lot of US teams reached and operated in Pakistan, some operated under the watchfull eye of ISI, heck some of the houses were guarded by SSG - yep thats right, we provided security to these teams.......
But shit hit the fan when These operates went off grid and started working on their own agenda, inflitrating extremist networks, knocking on the doors they were not supposed to --- only then our mighty isi woke up.....and mind it this all started with tenure of Gen Kiyani as head of isi and ended with gen Pasha.....
Anyhow past is a past......
The thing is isi is nothing mpre than anyother Burecratic organixation, we have best CI and Intelligence network but lack the capability of an armed strike team......isi needs to evolve which aren't

You don't have to take responsibility for secret operation. Create someone or control someone to accept responsibility of these acts and neutralize HVT with special secret squad within or outside this country.
For example if squad A, task is to neutralize HVT in foreign country..........and you think there will be the backlash of this incident .......solve it amicably........
Use media cell of non state actors to accept the responsibility of these acts as well as create perception of threat to these HVTs from anyother direction.
If HVT is someone most powerful in the world ......you require more careful approach to protect your country from any backlash. In this case infiltrate or plant your top assassin in organization of anyother country and leave trail of the incident to that organization.

Pakistan's option of HVT are very limited, we dont need to reck havoc in other country, we are akready doing that with proxy wars, but we need a team to put out Terrorist commanders and fat toads like Bhai.....and for all these you will have to own up what you did......excluding Bhai......we can kill off the professional assasins hired by our politicos and noone is going to raise any eyebrow but once you chop off a head of terror organization, media is going to start talking

 

[Stag112]

Pakistani state has followed the practice, more internally than externally.

Kashmiris protest at killing of Sardar Arif Shahid - BBC News

Here was a kashmiri who wanted freedom.

Their external killings have again included leaders from Indian kashmir who refused to follow orders from pakistan.

Lashkar-e-Taiba says rebel killed Kashmir cleric - BBC News

But everyone is mentioning assassinations in India of terrorists targetting pakistan without even one poster mentioning a name. The intellectual dishonesty on this thread is mindblowing.