Does Pakistan have what it takes to be a strong nation?

[S.Y.A]

Pashtun and baloch just sat there and became Pakistani overnight.

nope, pashtuns had a referendum, where the then jui (the real one, not the farce under fazlu) and muslim league campaigned together.

Baloch princely states like makran, kharan, lasbela joined of their own accord, british ruled balochistan voted in favor, khan of kalat, once surrounded by PAkistan too acceded.

anyhow, that is how a lot of countries have come into being, USA purchased lands. german speaking nations/kingdoms joined the german empire of their own accord, same with UAE. and so on. all political. unless you are a bloodthirsty guy who likes "wars of independence".

Pakistan never won a war lmfao.

sure sure. like afghanistan. oh wait, we never also got our asses handed to us like afghans (they have had their women raped, children bombed to bits, houses destroyed, yet still scream about how they "defeated" super-powers), and actually managed to stop the enemy at the border.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

nope, pashtuns had a referendum, where the then jui (the real one, not the farce under fazlu) and muslim league campaigned together.

The referendum was boycotted which resulted in very low voter count.

Our borders were preset with Afghanistan.

anyhow, that is how a lot of countries have come into being, USA purchased lands. german speaking nations joined the german empire. and so on. all political. unless you are a bloodthirsty guy who likes "wars of independence".

America wiped out the indigenous population and Germans and other Europeans did atrocities against each other.

I am referring to how Turkey gained its independence and how that dictates its mindset as well as their people's mindset.

Same can be said for Saudi Arabia and China, they seem more focuses than Pakistanis and did fight for what they got. Unlike Pakistan.

 

[TheSolution]

Until Pakistanis don't follow this rule - they will always be in a state of instability from within.

Too many traitors within, and they take your focus and resources away from the real tasks. Establishment should wake up.

 

[S.Y.A]

Germans and other Europeans did atrocities against each other.

talking about unification not wars. btw, germany lost the two most major wars it fought in.

on being focused, so is UAE. much more than pakistan.

finally, you want war and stuff simple as that. the borders were never pre-determined. had the states not acceded, there wouldnt have been anything.

The referendum was boycotted which resulted in very low voter count.

a likely story by pakhtun nationalsits.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

finally, you want war and stuff simple as that. the borders were never pre-determined. had the states not acceded, there wouldnt have been anything.

Borders with Afghanistan and Iran were drawn and finalized in 1893. Nothing changed from then until now. So it was pre determined

a likely story by pakhtun nationalsits.

The referendum was actually boycotted that’s why the voter turnout was 15% lower than what it was in the 1946 elections.

 

[TheSolution]

a likely story by pakhtun nationalsits.

I mean I understand Pakhtun/Baloch nationalism but it's retarded to bring up now, half of Sindh and Southern Punjab is full of Balochs. Massive cities all across Pakistan including the capital and Karachi are full of Pashtuns.

Will they all be prepared to move out and leave? Probably not and it would be another massive migration.

A lot of their complaints are also rooted in a victim complex or paranoia someone's working against you, the genocide allegations are just hilarious to say the least.

 

[FuturePAF]

Not until we, fundamentally, build a mentality of 'delayed gratification.' Once our people (especially leaders) embrace the pain of working hard today for the sake of a better future. This looks like a state and public spending their money on education, skill development, building capacity in industries with high demand, eliminating luxuries/perks at every level, being proactive, and taking calculated risks.

If we do this for 1 decade, we'll correct our internal affairs.

If we do this 2 decades, we'll become an emerging power.

If we do this for 3 decades (i.e., circle into an entire generation), we'll be a major power.

If we do this for 4 decades, we'll be a superpower.

The problem with us Pakistanis (collectively) is that we can't stick to it for even 1 decade.

We need a cultural shift, a new cultural/industrious compact as was formed in many East Asian nations, first of all by the Japanese.

A mentality similar to what the Japanese built over the last few hundreds of years. The Meiji period of Japan should be studied by our political minded people, in how a people moved from subsistence farming with a warrior class at the top of their hierarchy, to one where both the elites and the people had an understanding of sacrifice for the country and each other.

Many (60-70%) of the largest Japanese companies around in 1912 were founded during this period(1850’s-1900), and most of the remainder were founded in the Taisho period (1900-1912). Showing the change over and replacement of the economic order from the pre-Meiji period. Many of these companies are still around today and form an important part of Japanese industry today.

Considering the new COAS spent years in the Japanese military academy during his career, he would be familiar with this fundamental period of transformation of Japan and have seen the after effects in Japanese society.

From this experience, perhaps he could imagine a similar kind of balance applicable to Pakistan; Rule of Law, Economy first, but still a place for the “Samurai” as “guardians of the new setup”. Similar to how all levels of the Japanese society were expected to sacrifice for their emperor and faith with a full level of devotion, Pakistan needs a ruler or ruling class it can count on to uphold national values and be seen as just.

If they can’t accept IK returning to power, for domestic and international reasons, the Baton needs to be pasted to a new generation of non-nepotistic leaders (that are not seen by the majority of the public as corrupt) in all of the parties. The parties must be forced to move away from family dynasties and parties on platforms and acting within the boundaries of the cultural compact I mentioned at the start of this post. Politics should not be seen as a way to get rich in Pakistan. Business should be the only way to get rich. A generational shift will also shed the entrenched bitterness and gridlock. The risk is upsetting local ethnic and land owner power brokers, so it will have be done carefully to prevent rebellions.

In this way, Pakistan sits at the crossroads of East collectivist culture (with its own pros and cons) and western individualistic accountability (as seen through Abrahamic faiths). Pakistan as a country is an idea, so if it find a way to accommodate or deal with its local power brokers (like ethnic leaders and large land owners) it has the potential to move faster and implement changes faster then in an ethnic state that is bound by cultural restrictions (as we are recently seeing with the Afghans and Women’s education).

This history of the Meiji period also gives an example of how the Japanese dealt with their relationship with the Americans, and all other major foreign powers, balancing between them.

The lessons of WW2 and the lead up to it are also important to remember; not to challenge the global hegemon/international order if you want to continue to benefit from it, so aspirations of being a superpower come at a price.

2:00

 

[S.Y.A]

Borders with Afghanistan and Iran were drawn and finalized in 1893. Nothing changed from then until now. So it was pre determined


The referendum was actually boycotted that’s why the voter turnout was 15% lower than what it was in the 1946 elections.

afghanistan was beaten to a pulp (defeated in a war, you so love) by the british. it only survived because of the british and ussr desire t have a buffer between them. its an artificial state that hasnt seen stability since its inception, and never will.

the then nwfp joined in a referendum. no one forced the other party to boycott it and then cry foul. also, 99% votes were in favor of Paksitan, even if your 15% had turned out, it wouldnt have mattered.

funnily enough, the group of munafiqin, though, did not want to join a muslim paksitan, but had no problem with remaining united with hindu led india.

the border was decided when nwfp voted for pakistan, and when princely states of balochistan and north western region acceded to Pakistan. fair and square. cry all you want, this is the reality.

afghanistan tried and failed miserably to foment trouble in pakistan. afghanistan failed when it launched armed incursions into paksitan, supported lashkars and pashtunistan. it lost. the border is a reality. deal with it.

 

[El Sidd]

Delusions and illusions of the slaves.... Thank god I'm not from that POS failed state

Only the damned satan is this negative.

You can always stop coming to the forum and stop deluding yourself further?

 

[Mirzali Khan]

its an artificial state that hasnt seen stability since its inception, and never will.

Same can be said for Pakistan, no elected head of state completed its term lmao.

the then nwfp joined in a referendum. no one forced the other party to boycott it and then cry foul. also, 99% votes were in favor of Paksitan, even if your 15% had turned out, it wouldnt have mattered.

NWFP only consisted of D.I. Khan, Bannu, Kohat, Peshawar, Mardan, and Hazara

FATA and the rest of the princely states were not included.

funnily enough, the group of munafiqin, though, did not want to join a muslim paksitan, but had no problem with remaining united with hindu led india.

Deobandi ullema said no because it would divide Muslims.

the border was decided when nwfp voted for pakistan, and when princely states of balochistan and north western region acceded to Pakistan. fair and square. cry all you want, this is the reality.

Be more calm, no one was crying here. The border was made in 1893 so it was already decided before.

afghanistan tried and failed miserably to foment trouble in pakistan. afghanistan failed when it launched armed incursions into paksitan, supported lashkars and pashtunistan. it lost. the border is a reality. deal with it.

Same can be said about Pakistan and IOK, but Pakistan sold out Kashmir long ago. Afghanistan is still vying for the Loy Afghanistan dream.

Have no idea why you are getting mad, is everything okay at home ?

 

[S.Y.A]

Same can be said for Pakistan, no elected head of state completed its term lmao.



NWFP only consisted of D.I. Khan, Bannu, Kohat, Peshawar, Mardan, and Hazara

FATA and the rest of the princely states were not included.


Deobandi ullema said no because it would divide Muslims.


Be more calm, no one was crying here. The border was made in 1893 so it was already decided before.


Same can be said about Pakistan and IOK, but Pakistan sold out Kashmir long ago. Afghanistan is still vying for the Loy Afghanistan dream.

Have no idea why you are getting mad, is everything okay at home ?

not all deobandi ulema. shabbir usmani, zafar usmani, yusuf binnori, shafi usmani etc broke away from JUH, formed JUI and actually campaigned for Pakistan. also, its funny that the khidmatgar munafiqs would think of muslim unity, they were commies and pashtun nationalists through adn through, anything but muslim.

princely states acceded of their own accord. fata, due to being ruled by the british, naturally passed on to the successor state. no worries there.

If Pakistan has sold out Kashmir then afghanistan has surrendered their claim, lol! afghanistan failed against a newborn state without an army. pakistan, while having no proper army managed to get a good chunk of kashmir.

not getting mad, simply pointing out the fallacies of pashtun nationalist arguments.

 

[Clutch]

 

[One_Nation]

I mean I understand Pakhtun/Baloch nationalism but it's retarded to bring up now, half of Sindh and Southern Punjab is full of Balochs. Massive cities all across Pakistan including the capital and Karachi are full of Pashtuns.

Will they all be prepared to move out and leave? Probably not and it would be another massive migration.

A lot of their complaints are also rooted in a victim complex or paranoia someone's working against you, the genocide allegations are just hilarious to say the least.

When state loses credibility then any pagan ideology can take hold. If Pakistani state keeps losing credibility like this then it will eventually be run over by these ideologies.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

not all deobandi ulema. shabbir usmani, zafar usmani, yusuf binnori, shafi usmani etc broke away from JUH, formed JUI and actually campaigned for Pakistan.

Doesn't change the fact most of the Deobani ullema opposed partition. Even the deobandi scholar Mazhar Ali Azhar called Jinnah "K@fir-e-Azam" and this guy was allowed into Pakistan LOL.

In addition, the 1946 election in Punjab saw utilization of Barelvi and Sufi pirs by the Muslim league to overthrow Malik Tiwana's Unionist party.

also, its funny that the khidmatgar munafiqs would think of muslim unity, they were commies and pashtun nationalists through adn through, anything but muslim.

Bacha Khan was originally pro-unity then cooked up Pashtunistan in 1947. Babra Massacre isn't muslim country behavior.

princely states acceded of their own accord. fata, due to being ruled by the british, naturally passed on to the successor state. no worries there.

Then its not actual NWFP then. It was much reduced.

If Pakistan has sold out Kashmir then afghanistan has surrendered their claim, lol! afghanistan failed against a newborn state without an army. pakistan, while having no proper army managed to get a good chunk of kashmir.

There's still attacks by TTP and Afghanistan harbors terrorists against Pakistan. So they are still longing hard for their Loy Afghanistan dream. Pakistan on the other hand stopped Kashmir insurgency multiple times to appease India.

And no, the actual Kashmir valley aka Vale of Kashmir is the actual "Kashmir" where actual Kasheer live. That area is currently occupied. AJK and Gilgit-Baltistan are home to different ethnicities.

not getting mad, simply pointing out the fallacies of pashtun nationalist arguments.

I am a PTI supporter, so not a Pashtun nationalist. However, the entire argument was started on the matter of the western border being set (which it was since 1893). Then you started projecting some Afghan stuff on to me like a true Pakistani.

 

[S.Y.A]

Doesn't change the fact most of the Deobani ullema opposed partition. Even the deobandi scholar Mazhar Ali Azhar called Jinnah "K@fir-e-Azam" and this guy was allowed into Pakistan LOL.

informed you about other major ones who sided with Muslim League. Ashraf Thanwi group of deobandi scholars was way more influential than others anyways. and they sided with muslim league. and that resulted in victory in both NWFP referendum, and Bengal election for muslim league. as well as the muslim electorate in central india.

There's still attacks by TTP and Afghanistan harbors terrorists against Pakistan. So they are still longing hard for their Loy Afghanistan dream. Pakistan on the other hand stopped Kashmir insurgency multiple times to appease India.

....and the same TTP's top people have also been killed in the very same afghanistan.