Documentary about India by NHK, I recommend them to Chinese members

[Joe Shearer]

Why is anti-semitism so much more alarming than anti-Chinese racism or anti-Indian racism or anti-Pakistani racism?

Being anti-semite means you're only against a handful of people after all. Being racist against China or India means you hate more than 1000x the people.

I was coming to these two things; it seemed appropriate to concentrate on the single-theme message first, and make my personal feelings clear. It is a matter of major importance to me.

I am against racism of all kinds, and have actively opposed anti-Pakistani racism, or religious bigotry, to be more accurate, in this forum as well as on others. I am at a loss to deal with anti-Chinese racism by Indian commentators, as it is so utterly meaningless, but perhaps a start needs to be made, once it occurs to me where and when and how to make this start. About anti-Indian racism, I have nothing whatever to say. After all, this is to some extent in the hands of others. Secondly, personally, this is a subject which can be approached after addressing other, greater problems, such as the three mentioned already.

Anti-semitism is alarming, just as nuclear warfare is alarming, because a small section of the world has suffered intensely due to it, and we should protect this small section from further suffering. It is another matter that the greater crimes committed by the Nazis were committed against the Roma, but nobody pays attention to that series of crimes; racism at work again.

 

[Joe Shearer]

CCP was a way of labeling that bigot. Apparently not the right one.

"Bigot" is a perfectly good word with which to label a bigot. Speeder2 is a particularly obnoxious bigot.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Developereo

Your deleted post. It would be possible, if pride did not forbid it, to forward you lists of those encounters on this forum with Hindutvavadis, which clearly outline my position. However, doing so would seem to seek approbation of some sort, which cannot be thought of. I would rather that my record speak for itself as we go along. This is not a position confined to PDF, but elsewhere as well.

While we have had our differences in the past and undoubtedly will continue to have them, and I have a bone to pick with you personally on certain unrelated issues, the last thing that I would answer to is any suggestion of being a bigot, religious or any other, so I sincerely appreciate your gesture in deleting your post, and the remarks which accompanied it.

We shall meet at Phillippi.

 

[Vinod2070]

Developero, you have a fetish for keeping people "on-topic". Of course I have a view on when you do that.

However, it will be good if you can not mix up different threads and different issues. Will be really appreciated.

 

[Developereo]

@Developereo

Your deleted post. It would be possible, if pride did not forbid it, to forward you lists of those encounters on this forum with Hindutvavadis, which clearly outline my position. However, doing so would seem to seek approbation of some sort, which cannot be thought of. I would rather that my record speak for itself as we go along. This is not a position confined to PDF, but elsewhere as well.

While we have had our differences in the past and undoubtedly will continue to have them, and I have a bone to pick with you personally on certain unrelated issues, the last thing that I would answer to is any suggestion of being a bigot, religious or any other, so I sincerely appreciate your gesture in deleting your post, and the remarks which accompanied it.

We shall meet at Phillippi.

Was not accusing you personally of double standards. In fact, I saw your posts in another thread where you chastised Rig Vedic about his Islamophobic rants. But it is undeniable that the exact same Indians who complain vociferously about certain issues then turn around and post the most vile and sweeping generalizations about Muslims and Pakistanis.

This tendency of many Indian posters to be outright hostile and bigoted towards Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans, and then pretend to be civil towards Chinese is worth pointing out. To see these jingoistic Indians who are hostile towards all of India's neighbors except China is quite interesting to watch.

As for whatever issues you have with me, anytime. I will warn you, though, that I am neither swayed, nor distracted, by flowery language.

Developero, you have a fetish for keeping people "on-topic". Of course I have a view on when you do that.

However, it will be good if you can not mix up different threads and different issues. Will be really appreciated.

Look who's talking...

 

[Vinod2070]

This tendency of many Indian posters to be outright hostile and bigoted towards Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans, and then pretend to be civil towards Chinese is worth pointing out. To see these jingoistic Indians who are hostile towards all of India's neighbors except China is quite interesting to watch.

You have a lot of baggage. Let it not come in between your ability to analyze facts.

Look who's talking...

It doesn't matter much who is talking.

What matter is what is being talked.

You label everyone around "Hindutva fanatic" "Islamophobe" or "Indian troll" and so on. I am not sure what you expect in return.

This triggers some response. You need to understrand that.

 

[Developereo]

You have a lot of baggage. Let it not come in between your ability to analyze facts.

You are the one obssessed with centuries old wounds, and I am the one with baggage?
Now you'll acuse me of mixing threads, but I had to reply to your charge of "baggage".

If you look at PDF, many of us are the worst critics of Muslims and Pakistan. But we don't appreciate it when others hijack legitimate criticisms to score cheap points.

You label everyone around "Hindutva fanatic" "Islamophobe" or "Indian troll" and so on. I am not sure what you expect in return.

If you look at my posts, the only people I call Islamophobic are ones who drag Islam into a discussion gratuitously to make sweeping generalizations or to excuse crimes against Muslims because some Muslims somewhere, somewhen did such-and-such to so-and-so. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Was not accusing you personally of double standards. In fact, I saw your posts in another thread where you chastised Rig Vedic about his Islamophobic rants. But it is undeniable that the exact same Indians who complain vociferously about certain issues then turn around and post the most vile and sweeping generalizations about Muslims and Pakistanis.

This tendency of many Indian posters to be outright hostile and bigoted towards Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Sri Lankans, and then pretend to be civil towards Chinese is worth pointing out. To see these jingoistic Indians who are hostile towards all of India's neighbors except China is quite interesting to watch.

Your first sentence: I know, and appreciate that.

For the rest: Are the three sentences you have written connected? It isn't clear; they seem to be three separate outpourings. But if there is a connection, I would like to know. I would also like to know if you have any examples ready at hand. Habitual offenders do need special attention, and it isn't just the mods who need to react.

As for whatever issues you have with me, anytime. I will warn you, though, that I am neither swayed, nor distracted, by flowery language.

Point noted. Comfort yourself; you will neither be swayed nor distracted. As and when I take it up with you, or vice versa, my replies will be bisyllabic at worst. I do not take pleasure in brutal language, or the speech that street thugs use, but do understand direct speech, and blunt expressions when the occasion demands these.

Look who's talking...

You have a lot of baggage. Let it not come in between your ability to analyze facts.



It doesn't matter much who is talking.

What matter is what is being talked.

You label everyone around "Hindutva fanatic" "Islamophobe" or "Indian troll" and so on. I am not sure what you expect in return.

This triggers some response. You need to understrand that.

I agree with you, Vinod2070. But I also, independent of Developereo's observations, resent those Indians who take an aggressive, sometimes a beyond-aggressive, almost bigoted view of others. Those that actually do express bigotry need to be smacked down by the nearest person, regardless of who that person is.

The Developereo's can be sorted out once our own act is cleaned up. It does require self-discipline; there is cleaning up to be done. I speak as an individual, as there is no collective feeling about this from Indians, nor needs there be.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are the one obssessed with centuries old wounds, and I am the one with baggage?
Now you'll acuse me of mixing threads, but I had to reply to your charge of "baggage".

If you look at PDF, many of us are the worst critics of Muslims and Pakistan. But we don't appreciate it when others hijack legitimate criticisms to score cheap points.



If you look at my posts, the only people I call Islamophobic are ones who drag Islam into a discussion gratuitously to make sweeping generalizations or to excuse crimes against Muslims because some Muslims somewhere, somewhen did such-and-such to so-and-so. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I have to say, with the utmost reluctance, that I agree wholly with your last two sentences. To some extent, also with your statement about the hijacking of legitimate criticism, and generally about outsiders entering a discussion between people of the same group and scoring cheap points. It is both discourteous and enfuriating, and I am aware that there have been transgressions, regrettable ones.

This is without prejudice to other matters that lie between us.

 

[Developereo]

For the rest: Are the three sentences you have written connected? It isn't clear; they seem to be three separate outpourings. But if there is a connection, I would like to know.

They are different aspects of the same basic thought: the double standard exhibited by some people. Admittedly non-Indians also display this double standard.

I would also like to know if you have any examples ready at hand. Habitual offenders do need special attention, and it isn't just the mods who need to react.

I don't want to be a tattletale and put people on the spot. The offenders are easy to spot once one knows to look for them.

The Developereo's can be sorted out once our own act is cleaned up.

There will be no need to sort anybody if the Indians behave the same towards their other neighbors the way they do towards Chinese.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Regarding hate speech used against an entire community, or ethnic group, some of the things that have been said about Chinese members of the forum, or about the Chinese people and the Chinese state in general, make me cringe with embarrassment and shame. There is nothing more that can be done than to express personal regret, particularly to my three personal friends in that group.

As far as Islamophobia is concerned, please note that I have not stopped at expressing regret but have gone beyond, not once but whenever possible, not just here but elsewhere.

Sincerely, it does not occur to me that Bangladeshis have been picked on, not in terms of bigotry or hate-speech, not other than condescending statements which are admittedly despicable in themselves, while not being bigoted or hateful. If such things were to occur, there are personal and sentimental reasons why I would not keep quiet.

I believe most decent Indians share these views and opinions. There are a few from the fringes, as there are in every community. And it is also not as if there have not been transgressions, gross transgressions against us. But as someone just said, two wrongs don't make a right. I believe that we as Indians owe it to ourselves to keep to the high moral ground, irrespective of what others do. If some Indian member drags our good name through the muck, he will get to hear about it soon enough. That is a promise to myself. And it doesn't matter if other Indians don't agree or don't wish to join in: "Jodi daak dile keu na ashe, tobe ekla cholo re."

 

[Vinod2070]

You are the one obssessed with centuries old wounds, and I am the one with baggage?
Now you'll acuse me of mixing threads, but I had to reply to your charge of "baggage".

I just mentioned something in a particular context. No need to take it around everywhere.

If you look at PDF, many of us are the worst critics of Muslims and Pakistan. But we don't appreciate it when others hijack legitimate criticisms to score cheap points.

Agreed.

If you look at my posts, the only people I call Islamophobic are ones who drag Islam into a discussion gratuitously to make sweeping generalizations or to excuse crimes against Muslims because some Muslims somewhere, somewhen did such-and-such to so-and-so. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Frankly you overdo it a little (more than a little).

If we can all stick to facts and not label people, discussion will be much more fun.

I pledge to not call you an Islamist and will appreciate not being called an Islamophobe. Just because I criticize something you don't like.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I just mentioned something in a particular context. No need to take it around everywhere.



Agreed.



Frankly you overdo it a little (more than a little).

If we can all stick to facts and not label people, discussion will be much more fun.

I pledge to not call you an Islamist and will appreciate not being called an Islamophobe. Just because I criticize something you don't like.

When I was much younger, an older expatriate boss was among my audience for a critical presentation of a new product. I was out of my skin that day, and was at my persuasive peak. The slides were well-designed and crisp in content. The audience warmed up as we went along. By two-thirds of the way into the presentation, they were completely captivated. Suddenly, my boss interrupted me: "Enough! That'll do. You can sit down now." I wasn't having any. This was my day, and I was on song. Nobody was going to interrupt or take away my fifteen minutes of immortality. "I have the best part left, Sir, would you mind if I ran you through the remaining bits quickly?" "Yes, I would mind," came the surprising reply,"You've sold! Now stop selling!" I realised a great truth then and wish to share it with whoever is listening. Once you've sold, stop selling. If you continue, you might actually unsell part or all of the audience."

 

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

I am Glad that a positive Thread about India is started by a Chines Member.

But as expected Trolls came in and started destroying it.

Anyway THANKS Bigtree.cn

 

[Roybot]

@ Develepereo

Ever wondered why Pakistanis talk to Indians in a condescending manner, but when it comes to Chinese members they start kowtowing. Pretty much every post by a Pakistani addressed to a Chinese has a "Pakistan-China brotherly countries"/"Pakistan-China friendship Zindabad" as a disclaimer?

Mind you I don't have any issues with it, but since you were pointing out this "behaviour" of Indians I though I would point this out too. There are just as many if not more, hyper nationalistic and jingoistic Pakistanis as Indians, but you talk like its only the Indians who do this.

Why is it that any thread where Indian and Chinese are remotely getting along, like this particular, some Pakistani guy manages to come and flame the thread? I mean why so insecure? Are you guys afraid that after America, China will also leave the side of Pakistan and move towards India?

And here we are lecturing about the behaviour of Indians. I guess you are never around when your fellow Pakistanis or some Chinese fake flags make threads about India, its poverty, its toilet problem, its hunger problem over and over again. Some people ignore it, some people take it seriously and in return talk trash about Pakistan/China. I guess since its "Pakistan" defence forum you fail to see the other side of the story.