Do Young Taiwanese want to Reunify With China?

[below_freezing]

what was the methodology to measure those deaths? did the CIA count every single body or something? or was it a mathematical model, drawing on some assumptions which may or may not be true? or even perhaps, a wild guess?

Demographics of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The People's Republic of China conducted censuses in 1953, 1964, and 1982."

Basic Statistics on National Population Census in 1953, 1964, 1982, 1990 and 2000 - China Statistics Census

Item 1953 1964
Total Population (10 000 persons) 59435 69458

Hmmm... the Great Leap Forward occured, supposedly, 1958-1962.

And supposedly killed 40 million people.

Yet the population increased by 17%.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

what was the methodology to measure those deaths? did the CIA count every single body or something? or was it a mathematical model, drawing on some assumptions which may or may not be true? or even perhaps, a wild guess?

Demographics of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The People's Republic of China conducted censuses in 1953, 1964, and 1982."

Basic Statistics on National Population Census in 1953, 1964, 1982, 1990 and 2000 - China Statistics Census

Item 1953 1964
Total Population (10 000 persons) 59435 69458

Hmmm... the Great Leap Forward occured, supposedly, 1958-1962.

And supposedly killed 40 million people.

Yet the population increased by 17%.

Well said. These Jewish-Zionist sleezebags will fabricate all sorts of lies & deception, it is after all their Motto: "The wage war by way of Deception"

 

[Speeder 2]

That statement, apart from being completely wrong, is disgustingly bigoted. Hitler and his Nazi murderers could not have said that better himself. You are in some company.

which part of my statement is wrong? Or which letter is disgustingly bigoted, may I ask?

Bigoted? do you even know what does bigotry mean?

I am probably THE most qualified person you've spoken to in your entire life thus far, to give you a compact yet insightful definition on what is Wall Street and beneath. In stead of thanking me for it, you label me as a Nazi murderer equivalent, and worse. holly molly, are you still in grade schools reciting after your 21-yr-old docent on legends of Hawaii Hula?

OKE, sunshine, didn't I tell you that I am a mass-muderer with 3 war crimes against humanity on my belt? Gas was my speciality... be afraid, be very afraid!

 

[below_freezing]

what's more, 7 million people vanished off the US census during the 1930's.

Will we ever know how many americans starved to death in Roosevelt's forced labor camps?

10 Million Americans Disappeared during the Great Depression Time

Famine killed 7 million people in USA - Pravda.Ru

This is documented in the US's official 1930's and 1940's census.

 

[Speeder 2]

Basically he conveniently placed himself in (what he regarded as) the top pecking order with chinese below him and indians below the chinese. Seems he exists just to stir up controversies. Which is why I don't bother participating in most of these threads.

Formosa is named by the dutch which means beautiful island. It has nothing to do with Japanese, before that it is still called Taiwan

Dutch borrowed a Portugues word - formosa. In Dutch there's a totally different word for that.

 

[no_name]

what's more, 7 million people vanished off the US census during the 1930's.

Will we ever know how many americans starved to death in Roosevelt's forced labor camps?

10 Million Americans Disappeared during the Great Depression Time

Famine killed 7 million people in USA - Pravda.Ru

This is documented in the US's official 1930's and 1940's census.

There might be alot of wandering migrants looking for work and so don't have fixed household and therefore not covered by census

 

[below_freezing]

There might be alot of wandering migrants looking for work and so don't have fixed household and therefore not covered by census

so how reliable do you think US reports on china's population are when they can't even get their own right?

 

[Desertfalcon]

Yes, of course China's population still increased, it was a country of hundreds of millions of people, even then. That you dispute such well known history and figures and that it is attributed here to "Zionism" is what I was referring to when I made my comments on bigotry. This is really a depressing forum to post on as it seems as if the second world war, the holocaust, the massive communist genocides in Russia, China, Cambodia, Ethiopia, have just vanished from history here. It's so shocking I can't tell if people are really serious when they say things like, "Mao never killed all those people".

Anything I post to the contrary will be immediately dismissed by you, am I correct in that?

Mass crimes against humanity and genocide since World War II

They are hardly friends with the CIA. They are a well known human rights group and their information is about like any other reliable source on the subject.

 

[below_freezing]

look, i'm only asking a very, very simple question:

how do you measure those deaths? did they count the bodies? did they take a census? did they make a mathematical model?

a census is the way to measure it. increasing the population by 17% is not possible in starvation since the babies will either be not born or die soon after birth and is definitely not possible in the 8 years of population growth between the census.

also, i noticed you haven't denied that 7 million americans died during the great depression.

i haven't attributed anything to zionism either. i'm merely pointing out some legitimate arguments that any scientist would. if you published such a claim in a sociology or statistics magazine your paper would never be approved with such methodology.

 

[gambit]

look, i'm only asking a very, very simple question:

how do you measure those deaths? did they count the bodies? did they take a census? did they make a mathematical model?

You might want to take it up with 'The Party' itself...

Great Leap Forward - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Critics of Jung Chang and Jon Halliday's book Mao: The Unknown Story often cite these studies as evidence that their body count (38 million) may be exaggerated. One authoritative account of the famine, a 1,100-page study by Yang Jisheng, a long-time communist party member and a reporter for the official Chinese news agency Xinhua, puts the number of deaths from the Great Chinese Famine at 36 million. His book, entitled Tombstone, challenges the official Communist Party line that the famine was largely a result of "Three Years of Natural Disasters" and he puts the blame squarely on Maoist policies, such as diverting agricultural workers to steel production instead of growing crops, and exporting grain at the same time.

 

[below_freezing]

"The Party" is almost as large as the population of germany. far more qualified to lead and far more representative than your 500 or so puppets in congress and their bosses on wall street.

also, i'm not seeing his methods. interviews don't mean jack s*. the only way to get a number at 36 million is through a census, actual death records, actually counting bodies, or a mathematical model. where are they?

 

[gambit]

"The Party" is almost as large as the population of germany. far more qualified to lead and far more representative than your 500 or so puppets in congress and their bosses on wall street.

also, i'm not seeing his methods. interviews don't mean jack s*. the only way to get a number at 36 million is through a census, actual death records, actually counting bodies, or a mathematical model. where are they?

Yup...Denial...Denial...and more denial...

China Elections and Governance | The Carter Center

In the early 1990s, Yang began travelling the length and breadth of China to interview witnesses, eventually compiling more than 10 million words of records. His identity as a veteran reporter for the country's top news agency gave him access to people, reports, statistics and historical documents that would have been denied to ordinary people.

Each chapter quotes dozens of notes and sources: Yang's aim was to produce an account that is authoritative and can stand up to the challenge of official denial.

The famine has been a taboo subject on the mainland for the past 47 years and cannot be discussed publicly in books, magazines, newspapers, radio, television or the curricula of schools or universities. The official version is that there were "three years of disasters", during which many people died of natural causes. The details and the number are left unexplained.

Yang's book is banned on the mainland.

Accounts of the famine have been written by foreigners, overseas Chinese and mainland scholars and published it in academic journals overseas. None had the privileged access and connections available to Yang.

"When my father died of hunger, I believed that it was an isolated phenomenon," Yang said. "During the Cultural Revolution, the governor of Hubei said that 300,000 had died in the province during those three years.

"Then I realised that the tragedy in my family was not isolated. Census figures revealed that between 1959 and 1960 the population dropped by 10 million.

"I felt a sense of responsibility. If I did not write this book, it would be more difficult for those after me. This is a huge historical burden, which must be lifted sooner or later," he said.

 

[ao333]

This is halarious. Whoever trolls Indians is Chinese and whoever trolls Chinese is Japanese. And whoever trolls Vietnamese is racist.

I just don't see the logic here.

Has it ever occured to anyone that this thread has nothing to do with the Nazi party...? I think debating about Chinese and Taiwanese economic prosperity and respective military capabilities should be the direction. Here, let me put it into prespective:

Already, 41% of Taiwanese exports go to mainland China and Hong Kong. Economically, a 60% export reliance on any single political entity, would be annexation. And with the upcoming FTA, which the DPP's fussing out about, it's just one step towards reunification...

Don't you guys see? If China keeps up its 10% economical growth against Taiwan's 5, the trade deficit that mainland is running with Taiwan will become insignificant in the future. It's the same strategy adopted by West Germany. AND IT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO WORK.

BTW, the Americans are already giving communist China enough face by advocating a status quo on Taiwan, which wouldn't have been Chinese in the first place if they foresaw a commie takeover.

 

[592257001]

I really think the debate about which political system is better should and which country killed more people should really end here.
First of all, most of the sites that Gamebit provided are English websites that are hosted by western people. It would be hard and unreasonable for them to support what the Chinese or to even remain unbiased. After all, you wouldn’t expect a large US population who are largely republicans or democrats to support a bunch of so called “commies”, right?
By all accounts, I do know and believe that Mao did kill a lot of Chinese citizens during his reign, whether intentionally or unintentionally (you can tell from my previous discussion posts with below freezing that I am not a left leaning commie at all, but rather much more right leaning). However, the numbers that you stated is much larger than what I known before and great variations exist between reports of how many people were actually killed. Also, you’ve only insisted on how MANY people were killed, not the PERCENTAGE of the whole Chinese population was killed. I am sure the US have done lots of brutal killings of innocent lives in places like Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq…and the list goes on. I am sure you would agree that it’s impossible to give a complete list of killing of innocent people in those places. And it would not be right to say that US is a better system than China just because US only killed 5 million innocent people and China killed 6 million innocent people.
Lastly, just like what Churchill said “History is written by the victors”, as the world’s sole superpower today, US often makes up the history you learn today, and they are often exaggerated to fit its own propaganda. Think about it, the US depict the person who dropped nuke on Hiroshima as a hero, what will the US say if the Nazis got the nukes first and dropped the bomb on New York?

PS: Of course this writing is biased, I am Chinese, for God's sake

 

[Martian2]

The discussion is not logical. It should be quite straightforward and simple.

1) Millions of Chinese people died during a famine while under Mao's rule.

2) Mao's intention was to promote China's industrialization. After Mao's failed policy of the Great Leap Forward, it was not within Mao's power to save/feed the millions of Chinese people.

3) However, it was within the power of the West to save/feed the millions of Chinese people that Mao put at risk with his failed policy.

4) The West had a choice. The West could ship food to China and save millions of people from a deadly famine or the West could withhold food and watch millions of people die.

5) The West chose to withhold food aid to help millions of Chinese through the famine. As a result, millions of innocent Chinese died. The West had the power to save millions of Chinese, but it chose to watch them starve to death.

6) We have seen another instance where the West intentionally withheld its food aid and let millions of people die. During the Irish Potato Famine, superpower Britain ruled Ireland and intentionally watched millions of innocent Irish people die.

The Irish Famine, Or Passive Genocide

"The Irish Famine, Or Passive Genocide

A controversial look at how the "Great Potato Famine" of Ireland in the 19th century. It was not a famine as there was plenty of food other than potatoes. The British government stood idly by and let millions of Irish die in what is now being called genocide."

7) I ask you. Who is the monster? The person who enacted a foolish policy in an attempt to advance the livelihood of his countrymen or the powerful Western nations that intentionally withheld food aid and chose to let millions of people die?

In the Bible, does it not say that you are supposed to help your brother in his hour of need? Where were the Christians and their faith in God during China's hour of need? Where was the Western food aid to help China survive the famine, which China would have repaid with interest after the famine passed? Why did the Christian West intentionally withhold food and watch millions of Chinese die?