Discussion Pakistan navy, s frigate options 2016

[Penguin]

3rd party technology transfer issues likely. most recent example of Turkish Altay MBT engine TOT transfer issue as Austria imposed sanctions on turkey for its 2016 coup. SK does use western components as nothing is 100% indigenous anymore. I'm not aware of Myanmar shipbuilding efforts.

SK uses a lot of Thales sensor equipment and US weaponry. Myanmar uses technology from e.g. Russia (Kh/35 / SS-N-25, Igla manpads) , China (CODAD diesel powerplant, AK630, C802, ASW tubes/torpedoes, ASW rockets/launchers, Z-9) and India (radar, sonar, 76mm).

These ships feature a stealthy superstructure with two masts and a helicopter hangar. The platform has a length of 106 m and a beam of about 13.5 m. It is powered by two Chinese-assembled Pielstick 16 cylinder PA6 STC engines from Shaanxi Diesel Engine company.

The frigate is equipped with an India-supplied RAWL-02 (license-built Thales LW-08) 2D air search radar on the mainmast, a Chinese Type 362 missile-targeting radar in a radome atop the foremast along with two fire control radars - most likely Chinese Type 47 series. An India-made HMS-X hull-mounted sonar system is also fitted to the frigates.

Weapons include one [Indian made] Oto Melara 76 mm gun in a stealthy gun mount and three Chinese NG-18 systems for close-in defence. A North Korean-origin box launcher for six man-portable air defence system (MANPADS) is also fitted on the foredeck along with two North Korean small calibre gun mounts on the bridge wings.

But its however you want to dress this one up from scratch.

Eg. Chinese ASW rockets, Chinese 76mm, 1x8 HQ10, 2x4 C-802A, 2x3 TR ASW 324mm, 2x NG-18, 1x8 HQ10

 

[Incog_nito]

I think Pakistan should focus more and more on Subs like SSBNs, SSKs, and coastal SSKs.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I'd go for 4 Istanbul-class (MILGEM-G) frigates with an option for 2 more. It appears to be among the most affordable multi-mission frigate designs available (outside of China) on the market at USD $325 million a ship (including sensors and weapons). Still, considering that the I-Class frigate also includes VLS and additional AShW firepower, the price is very competitive on its own terms.

I would equip the I-Class frigates with Turkish subsystems - including the license-built SMART-S Mk2 if possible - with the Atmaca AShM and Mk. 46 ASW torpedoes. However, I would equip the AAW with the MBDA CAMM. If the RAM cannot be procured, then I'd swap it out with the FL-3000N. Finally, I'd configure the extra AShM slots for the Babur LACM and, if possible, CX-1 or CM-302 supersonic cruising AShM.

 

[Basel]

I'd go for 4 Istanbul-class (MILGEM-G) frigates with an option for 2 more. It appears to be among the most affordable multi-mission frigate designs available (outside of China) on the market at USD $325 million a ship (including sensors and weapons). Still, considering that the I-Class frigate also includes VLS and additional AShW firepower, the price is very competitive on its own terms.

I would equip the I-Class frigates with Turkish subsystems - including the license-built SMART-S Mk2 if possible - with the Atmaca AShM and Mk. 46 ASW torpedoes. However, I would equip the AAW with the MBDA CAMM. If the RAM cannot be procured, then I'd swap it out with the FL-3000N. Finally, I'd configure the extra AShM slots for the Babur LACM and, if possible, CX-1 or CM-302 supersonic cruising AShM.

I-Class Ships can have South African MR-SAM with Custom built RIM/FL-3000N type system based on A-Darter or it's Naval equivalent from South Africa, or if Aster-15/30 package or CAMM-ER for Naval role for AAM if available, Turkish or any suitable western AShM will be good to have along with AShM / LACM Babur-3, Smart SMk-2 is good but not good enough for Pakistani frigates, PN need AESA with 360 degree coverage to face advance and large IN.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I-Class Ships can have South African MR-SAM with Custom built RIM/FL-3000N type system based on A-Darter or it's Naval equivalent from South Africa, or if Aster-15/30 package or CAMM-ER for Naval role for AAM if available, Turkish or any suitable western AShM will be good to have along with AShM / LACM Babur-3, Smart SMk-2 is good but not good enough for Pakistani frigates, PN need AESA with 360 degree coverage to face advance and large IN.

I would say that the Saab Sea Giraffe 4A and Leonardo Kronos Naval would be the PN's leading Western options in terms of naval AESA radars. Saab is collaborating with Denel to pair the Umkhonto to Saab radars, while Leonardo would be the natural fit should the PN consider the MBDA CAMM. However, the least costly route would be to pair the Denel Dynamics Umkhonto-EIR (35 km) to the Thales SMART-S Mk2.

 

[Basel]

I would say that the Saab Sea Giraffe 4A and Leonardo Kronos Naval would be the PN's leading Western options in terms of naval AESA radars. Saab is collaborating with Denel to pair the Umkhonto to Saab radars, while Leonardo would be the natural fit should the PN consider the MBDA CAMM. However, the least costly route would be to pair the Denel Dynamics Umkhonto-EIR (35 km) to the Thales SMART-S Mk2.

Is Giraffe capable to meet PN requirements?? We need something close in capabilities of MF-STAR, also CAM-ER is also good if possible to mount on ships, it's different from Base CAMM in terms of range if I m not wrong and Aster-30 Block-1NT should try to get it because it offer ABM capability.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/press-r...join-together-to-develop-aster-30-block-1-nt/

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Is Giraffe capable to meet PN requirements?? We need something close in capabilities of MF-STAR, also CAM-ER is also good if possible to mount on ships, it's different from Base CAMM in terms of range if I m not wrong and Aster-30 Block-1NT should try to get it because it offer ABM capability.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/press-r...join-together-to-develop-aster-30-block-1-nt/

Ideally, the PN would get ships armed with Aster-30 B1NTs, but money and a lack of available options mean it can't readily take up that course. However, even if it arms its new frigates with the bare minimum (per modern standards), e.g. Thales SMART-S Mk2 and Umkhonto EIR or Aster-15, it can upgrade the ships 20-25 years from now as long as the ships themselves are designed with the future in mind.

Remember, the I-Class is only plausible if kept in the USD $300-350 million per ship range, but if you add in the Leonardo Kronos Naval and Aster-30 B1NT, you're looking at crossing that threshold.

 

[Basel]

Ideally, the PN would get ships armed with Aster-30 B1NTs, but money and a lack of available options mean it can't readily take up that course. However, even if it arms its new frigates with the bare minimum (per modern standards), e.g. Thales SMART-S Mk2 and Umkhonto EIR or Aster-15, it can upgrade the ships 20-25 years from now as long as the ships themselves are designed with the future in mind.

Remember, the I-Class is only plausible if kept in the USD $300-350 million per ship range, but if you add in the Leonardo Kronos Naval and Aster-30 B1NT, you're looking at crossing that threshold.

You talked about Giraffe 4A but what is your opinion about 8A?? We also need to replace old Giraffe and other Low level sensors too.

http://saab.com/air/sensor-systems/ground-based-air-defence/giraffe-8A/

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You talked about Giraffe 4A but what is your opinion about 8A?? We also need to replace old Giraffe and other Low level sensors too.

http://saab.com/air/sensor-systems/ground-based-air-defence/giraffe-8A/

These are new radars and I don't think they've seen much - or any - adoption yet anywhere. So it is difficult to say anything unless we get information of the PAF evaluating them. Despite its age, the Thales SMART-S Mk2 is a proven and widely adopted system.

 

[Basel]

These are new radars and I don't think they've seen much - or any - adoption yet anywhere. So it is difficult to say anything unless we get information of the PAF evaluating them. Despite its age, the Thales SMART-S Mk2 is a proven and widely adopted system.

8A can track BMs too, but for PN Sea Giraffe 4A have 280 km range so which one is better? Sea Giraffe 4A or Smart-S mk-2?

http://saab.com/naval/situational-awareness/multi-role-surveillance-radar/sea-giraffe-4A/

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

8A can track BMs too, but for PN Sea Giraffe 4A have 280 km range so which one is better? Sea Giraffe 4A or Smart-S mk-2?

http://saab.com/naval/situational-awareness/multi-role-surveillance-radar/sea-giraffe-4A/

The Thales SMART-S Mk2 has a range of 250 km. But besides Thales, Aselsan in Turkey also manufactures and maintains the SMART-S Mk2 under license. The distributed supply channel helps in terms of cost reduction and diversification, especially with a reliable supplier such as Turkey in the mix. Moreover, if the SMART-S Mk2 is selected and manufactured in Turkey, then the overall cost of the PN frigate could be noticeably lower than if a third-party off-the-shelf solution is bought (e.g. Turkish currency and labour costs vs. Euro).

 

[Basel]

These are new radars and I don't think they've seen much - or any - adoption yet anywhere. So it is difficult to say anything unless we get information of the PAF evaluating them. Despite its age, the Thales SMART-S Mk2 is a proven and widely adopted system.

8A can track BMs too but Sea Giraffe 4A have 280 km range so which one is better? Sea Giraffe 4A or Smart-

The Thales SMART-S Mk2 has a range of 250 km. But besides Thales, Aselsan in Turkey also manufactures and maintains the SMART-S Mk2 under license. The distributed supply channel helps in terms of cost reduction and diversification, especially with a reliable supplier such as Turkey in the mix. Moreover, if the SMART-S Mk2 is selected and manufactured in Turkey, then the overall cost of the PN frigate could be noticeably lower than if a third-party off-the-shelf solution is bought (e.g. Turkish currency and labour costs vs. Euro).

Is Smart-S mk-2 PD radar or AESA??

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/d...ument/Datasheet Smart_Smk2_DS152_10_12_HR.pdf

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

8A can track BMs too but Sea Giraffe 4A have 280 km range so which one is better? Sea Giraffe 4A or Smart-


Is Smart-S mk-2 PD radar or AESA??

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/Datasheet Smart_Smk2_DS152_10_12_HR.pdf

It's a PESA radar.

 

[cabatli_53]

The Thales SMART-S Mk2 has a range of 250 km. But besides Thales, Aselsan in Turkey also manufactures and maintains the SMART-S Mk2 under license. The distributed supply channel helps in terms of cost reduction and diversification, especially with a reliable supplier such as Turkey in the mix. Moreover, if the SMART-S Mk2 is selected and manufactured in Turkey, then the overall cost of the PN frigate could be noticeably lower than if a third-party off-the-shelf solution is bought (e.g. Turkish currency and labour costs vs. Euro).

As a Note Smart-S mk2 radars that Aselsan manufactures have domestic T/R modules instead of original Thales equivalent. Thanks to high performance of domestic modules, Thales and Aselsan have reached an addition order to use same modules for all Smart-S export markets as well. I think That factor helps to reduce the cost and maintain issues.

 

[Tank131]

For PN ships the Aselsan Smart S mk2 is more than sufficient. It is going to be lower cost, more politically practical, and with its 250km range its more than sufficient coverage. With proper data linking 2-3 ships could cover nearly all of Pakistan's EEZ.

AS for weaponry, when you are dealing with a vessel which has only 8 or 16 SAMs is not going to overcome a saturation attack. You need to have quad-packable missiles to give more protection. Im not sure with the booster on the CAMM-ER, that would be possible. There is also nothing I've seen that tells me umkhonto-eir is quad-packable. If they are then great, go for them, if not, K-SAAM & CAMM are the best options.