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DISCUSSION: COULD THE ISTANBUL-CLASS FRIGATE INTEREST PAKISTAN?

Regarding Type 054A+ vs I-class, it honestly depends on the load out that the chinese can offer. In its current setup the 3000t I-class has the potential to far outgun the Type 054A+. It carries 16 AShM vs 8, it has potential to to be more customized for weaponry from Europe (UK/Italy/France), S. Korea, S. Africa, China,, Turkey, etc. China will not likely allow armaments from Europe, likely not even from S. Korea. Problem is neither China, turkey or S. Africa have quad-packable SAMs. The I-class could potentially field 64 medium range and 24 short range SAMs if equipped with CAMM or K-SAAM.

For the chinese vessel the 057 (calling it that because the images calling it 057 match the model displayed at IDEAS 2016) Makes far more sense. It appears to be in the 4500-5000t range. It appears to be equipped with 48 VLS cells (32 up fron and 16 just to the stern of the hangar). Those 16 cells appear to be in a position that would enable it to equip long range SAMs like hq9 which, with its 200km range, would enable real fleet level defense for the first time in Pakistan's history. That plus its 32 km medium range SAMs (could be expanded to 128 medium range SAMs of quad-packable missiles developed by China), and 24 short range FL-3000N SAMs, and 2 CIWS the ship would be the best Air defense vessel in the Indian ocean.

f 22 has 2x3 torpedo tubes, has 8 Fm 20 with range of 15-20km
though no VLS

You forgot 12 rdc-32 Antisubmarine rocket
 
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Well if it's equipped by those VLS which can fire long range cruise missiles it should be the one and we need 8 of these
 
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@Zarvan man i dont get how you still have no sense pf priority. Pakistan doesn't need a ship thats role is to fire cruise missiles from a vls at this time. To do that you need a relatively large ship of destroyer size (>6000t) just to accommodate the sheer length of a 7m cell or a ship designed start to finish around the vls unit.

What pakistan really has need for is a ship capable of defending the fleet and coast against surface, subsurface and aerial attacks by IN. A true multimission frigates, but not necessarily one used for land attack.

Regarding F-22P, There certainly could/should be a mid-life revision of the current ones if possible and new updated F-22P could be had basee on C28A with the fm90 removed and a vls put in its place or Question is cost and if China would do it. The newer designs may be more practical given improvements expected in automation, layout, and equipment/materials and quality controls.
 
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@Zarvan man i dont get how you still have no sense pf priority. Pakistan doesn't need a ship thats role is to fire cruise missiles from a vls at this time. To do that you need a relatively large ship of destroyer size (>6000t) just to accommodate the sheer length of a 7m cell or a ship designed start to finish around the vls unit.

What pakistan really has need for is a ship capable of defending the fleet and coast against surface, subsurface and aerial attacks by IN. A true multimission frigates, but not necessarily one used for land attack.

Regarding F-22P, There certainly could/should be a mid-life revision of the current ones if possible and new updated F-22P could be had basee on C28A with the fm90 removed and a vls put in its place or Question is cost and if China would do it. The newer designs may be more practical given improvements expected in automation, layout, and equipment/materials and quality controls.
Sorry defending only is suicide the way Indian Navy is growing we need aggressive Navy which is equipped with around 24 such Frigates which have VLS system to fire long range cruise missiles other wise we are doomed.
 
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Sorry defending only is suicide the way Indian Navy is growing we need aggressive Navy which is equipped with around 24 such Frigates which have VLS system to fire long range cruise missiles other wise we are doomed.

And who is going to pay for your 24 frigate navy? Your dad? I not saying defensive only, you need to have practical cost effective measures. Pakistan has to get line of credit for 4 corvette and u talk about 24 frigate navy!

Land attack by frigates unable to defend themselves against aerial attack is not gonna win you any wars. It is best carried out by submarines who have a chamce at surviving. Your frigates need to protect your fleet.
 
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What we need to acquire is ship of a kind with lower displacement having proper air defence plus capability to attack ships.
Through this approach we would have several number of ships With capabilities of attacking and at the same time self defence.
It would be better to acquire 3 ships of 1000-1500 tons instead of a larger ship of 3000-4000 tons to build capabilities and fleet numbers to improve presence and availability in the oceans.
Tnx

We have a workable design and experience in the form of Azmat class what we need is to increase its capabilities by increasing its weight and size a little to accommodate few medium range sams and increase its attacking power from 8 16 ssms same like the sa'ar class of Israel.
 
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And who is going to pay for your 24 frigate navy? Your dad? I not saying defensive only, you need to have practical cost effective measures. Pakistan has to get line of credit for 4 corvette and u talk about 24 frigate navy!

Land attack by frigates unable to defend themselves against aerial attack is not gonna win you any wars. It is best carried out by submarines who have a chamce at surviving. Your frigates need to protect your fleet.

Well we already have 11-12 Ships , so we would be adding another 10 Units , and if we choose the correct type of Ships , which come with Anti Ship , Anti Air and Anti Submarine solution , then our money would be spent worth while.


251 PNS Zulfiquar
252 PNS Shamsheer
253 PNS Saif
254 PNS Aslat
F-181 PNS Tariq
F-182 PNS Babur
F-183 PNS Khaibar
F-185 PNS Shah Jahan
F-186 PNS Tippu Sultan
PNS Alamgir
1013 PNS Azmat
1014 PNS Dehshat
1015 PNS Dehshat2


If there are constraints in budget we can part few of the frigates near the gawadar port and restrict patrols untill the large ships are needed

We will continue to boost our Navy from the looks of things

Since our fleet is normally living around the coast line we already have that air zone covered
HQ-16ABC+LY80+Surface-to-Air+Missile+sam+plaaf+pla+china+export+type+054abc+-+%25282%2529.jpg


But the ships also have their own counter meassures against Aireal threat

Arrival of 4 Frigates (Destroyers) and 6 Corvettes , will further solidify the Navy


Obviously for enemy ships , we also have few other plans "Zarb Missile"
attachment.php
 
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Could be part of the maintenance budget, e.g. uptick in LRU demand, wear and tear, possible damage and repairs in usage, etc.

and what about that 100 billion Coalition Support Fund? Is Pakistan still receiving that coalition support fund?
 
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What we need to acquire is ship of a kind with lower displacement having proper air defence plus capability to attack ships.
Through this approach we would have several number of ships With capabilities of attacking and at the same time self defence.
It would be better to acquire 3 ships of 1000-1500 tons instead of a larger ship of 3000-4000 tons to build capabilities and fleet numbers to improve presence and availability in the oceans.
Tnx

We have a workable design and experience in the form of Azmat class what we need is to increase its capabilities by increasing its weight and size a little to accommodate few medium range sams and increase its attacking power from 8 16 ssms same like the sa'ar class of Israel.

Pakistan is not living in Israels neighborhood, the Indian navy is more potent then the navies of all the Arab states combined. Pakistan needs cost effective multirole ships to defend its fleet and shipping lanes. They need to be able to have the fleet operate independently of the shore with actual air cover provided by the ships. They must be able to return sufficient fire on opposing vessels. To that effect, a 16 cell vls if utilizing quad-packable medium range sams and the ship is able to equip at least 8 AShm, then yes by all means go for the smaller ship (although range will suffer, that is not a major concern in this theater). But i suspect, given the minimum 4.3-5m required to have a vls long enough for current quack packed SAMs, you wont be to find a 1500t capable of fielding a sufficient defense against saturation style attacks mostly due to cost (would need to be custom designed for such a thing) . A 3000-4000t ship is most likely necessary.

Well we already have 11-12 Ships , so we would be adding another 10 Units , and if we choose the correct type of Ships , which come with Anti Ship , Anti Air and Anti Submarine solution , then our money would be spent worth while.


251 PNS Zulfiquar
252 PNS Shamsheer
253 PNS Saif
254 PNS Aslat
F-181 PNS Tariq
F-182 PNS Babur
F-183 PNS Khaibar
F-185 PNS Shah Jahan
F-186 PNS Tippu Sultan
PNS Alamgir
1013 PNS Azmat
1014 PNS Dehshat
1015 PNS Dehshat2


If there are constraints in budget we can part few of the frigates near the gawadar port and restrict patrols untill the large ships are needed

We will continue to boost our Navy from the looks of things

Since our fleet is normally living around the coast line we already have that air zone covered
HQ-16ABC+LY80+Surface-to-Air+Missile+sam+plaaf+pla+china+export+type+054abc+-+%25282%2529.jpg


But the ships also have their own counter meassures against Aireal threat

Arrival of 4 Frigates (Destroyers) and 6 Corvettes , will further solidify the Navy


Obviously for enemy ships , we also have few other plans "Zarb Missile"
attachment.php

So firstly, considering the type 21s for anything more than target practice or antipiracy missions at this point is laughable. They need badly to be decommissioned and are 10 years past their retirement date. Including FAC as major surface combatant when they are actually patrol and support ships is misleading. You currently have 9 large surface combatants of which 5 are fairly useless in modern warfare when compared to your main opponent. And of the vessels you mentioned, none provide even a passable air defense (by that i mean they cant truely defend against air launchdd and surface launched missile strikes in a sufficient manner, let alone a saturation style attack with 6-8 missiles). PN needs to make full effort to replace the T21s with the retiring Adelaides and then get 4 turkish or chinese multimission frigates (capable of utilizing at least medium range SAMs). The notion that coastal air defense batteries and land based fighters are sufficient air protection for the fleet means you have given yourself up to blockade. The fleet needs the capability and capacity to operate undeterred in open waters. It needs to be self sufficient amd any protection it recieves from the shore is icing.

I have previously laide out a plan for cost effective modernization for PN which will enable it to field 12 large surface combatants of which 8 are fully multirole, while adding 4 high quality, high payload capable ASW Aircraft capable of Antishipping as well, for under $2bln. I am fully cognizant that PN wouldnt actually do it, mostly because they seem to have a lack of imagination, and an unnatural disregard for air defense despite the fact that history has shown us airpower equals control.

The Alamghir was acquired via hot transfer for $65m. It was refurbished and equipped with Harpoons by PN. The 3 remaining Adelaides however can be acquired for similar price via hot transfer (taking it directly from retirement service to the new nation without storage or mothballing). You get it as is. The major advantage is that these vessels already have 8 cell mk41 vls systems and they have their Mk13 launchers intact. These were designed to carry sm1-mr and harpoon but as sm1 wont be available to Pakistan, load these 3 up with harpoon (up to 40 missiles in the mk13 cylinder). Get a south korean vls or the Sylver A43/A50 8 cell units for Alamghir and equip all 4 ships with K-SAAM (of vls is korean) or CAMM (if Sylver vls is acquired). These 4 ohp will be suitable replacements for the T21s and will actually outgun any frigate/destroyer in IN except maybe Kalkota class (but likely that as well) with 32 MR-SAMs and 8(Alamghir) - 40 (Adelaides) AShMs. The cost of these vessels will run ~$195-200M total with likely an additional $100-200M in upgrades (GENESIS systems and SMART S Mk2 from Turkey). Then get 4 I-class frigates equipped with the same VLS System and medium range SAM as the OHPs (for fleet commonality and improves logistics). Equip them with 2 ciws and a 24 cell fl3000n and you also carry 16 AShM (250km range of Atacama) or 10 Zarb missiles. With 64 MR-SAMs, 24 short range SAMs these will also outgun any vessel in IN for a total of $1.3bln ($325M/ship). Next go for 4 Y-8GX6 ASW aircraft capable of carrying 8 Torpedoes or 4 AShM and in partnership with ATR and Orion amd your surface fleet, you have a strong antisub amd Antishipping capability. These acquisitions will cost ~$2B (200M for adelaides, 1.3B for I-class, ~200M for Y-8GX6 and 100-200M for upgrades to Alamghir /Adelaides).

With F-22p the deck housing the FM90 is roughly 2M tall. Keep the deck but take the 1st level below it and place the same vls launcher as the OHPs and I-class with 16-24 cells and add a 24 cell fl3000n launer over the rear hangar. If thats not possible then replace FM-90 with 2 boxes for DK-10 or hq16 (8 total), arranged like harpoon on Alamghir, and a 24 cell fl3000n launcher over the helicopter hanger. That at least provides reasonable defense. Get SMART-S Mk2 for them amd a genesis combat management system. This would likely cost ~350-500M.

This gives you 12 large truely multirole large surface combatants against 25 such vessels (not including carriers) in IN. Add to that 11 AIP equipped subs, 4 Azmat and 6 other FAC (hopefully FAC-55) and you have the makings of a strong navy.

It buys time for larger vessels such as destroyers when each of your vessels can hold its own. In future PN could look at vessels like type 057 all the way up to tf2000 or type 055. But not yet. The economy needs to improve amd this cost effective way to do it allows you the breathing room to do it.
 
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Some news on Turkish section about visit of Pakistan prime minister to Turkey and say deal will be announce for 4 Milgems.
 
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I hope its Istanbul class and not Ada class, but the navy has a way of disappointing.
 
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I hope its Istanbul class and not Ada class, but the navy has a way of disappointing.
Even if it just Ada-class, let's hope they work with STM to at least fit 8 quad-packable Sylver A35s for the CAMM or at least Umkhonto-EIR. If STM is willing to design a new mini-SSK, they can re-work the Ada-class for VLS.
 
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CAMM yes, an 8 cell for Umkhonto-eir is not sufficient.
 
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