Discssion: Why it is better for PAF to enter 5th Gen league now .

[MastanKhan]

IAF:
They don't need it. They rejected going for the F-35 in favour of the FGFA. FGFA is better in most respects, plus comes with ToT, 50% IPR etc. So we can modify and produce the jet on our own like we have with Brahmos. If we purchase the F-35, it will only come with MKI style modifications and limited license production. In fact, the Russians had assumed that we will cancel FGFA and go for the F-35 instead, but Parrikar assured them that the FGFA is on. It's better to focus on the AMCA instead.

Even the new Single Engine tender for 200 jets has been designed specifically to keep the F-35 out. It calls for the induction of a proven 4th gen jet, so LM will participate with the F-16.

IN:
There's a new RFI out for 57 jets. LM is sure to reply with the F-35B. It will compete with Rafale and Super Hornet.

Hi,

And the F35 would have Kill switches as well---not kill switches persay---but access denial or depleted access modes---.

I would be really shocked if India went for any american fighter aircraft---.

 

[danger007]

The only application PAF has for stealth is to Nuke India from the air. Other than that, a good portion of our strike options have been assumed by cruise missiles. For homeland defense, the stealth isnt more economical than a multi layered Air Defense Network.

And get nuke-d..

Pakistan has almost 70 million armed civilians and the Indian capital is just a stone throw away across a friendly flat terrain, we've marched on it dozens of times before across centuries, they attack Kashmir, we'd attack their capital with more armed combatants than the armies of the rest of the world combined. Our nukes are the least of India's worries. Its our primary enemy, we have no feud with anyone else, not even with you lot.

Pakistan has almost 70 million armed civilians and the Indian capital is just a stone throw away across a friendly flat terrain, we've marched on it dozens of times before across centuries, they attack Kashmir, we'd attack their capital with more armed combatants than the armies of the rest of the world combined. Our nukes are the least of India's worries. Its our primary enemy, we have no feud with anyone else, not even with you lot.

Please enlighten the part marched over centuries... if you think 70million from Pakistan then how many from India? Couldn't hold lil place called kargil.. you are talking about Delhi.. talk something sensible the thread never intend towards nukes .. being admin you are trolling.. behave mature.

They do. The S-400adar can see out to 600km and engage at 400km. If cruise missiles are detected at or before 400km then they can engage at those distances.

You missed the logic, if the war in Indian space then Sam, s-400 is ineffective but if it is in Pakistan... even decades old sam can take down stealth jet..

 

[The SC]

Hi,

And the F35 would have Kill switches as well---not kill switches persay---but access denial or depleted access modes---.

I would be really shocked if India went for any american fighter aircraft---.

Even the Gripen has an American engine...

 

[CriticalThought]

You missed the logic, if the war in Indian space then Sam, s-400 is ineffective but if it is in Pakistan... even decades old sam can take down stealth jet..

I'll give him a rejoinder when I get the time. Been busy lately...

 

[Ultima Thule]

We are getting the PAK FA, but you are not getting the J-20.

So what? are you trolling?We don't need J-20, its a single mission jet, instead we are interested in J-31 which is multi-role jet, J-31 suits PAF doctrine well

 

[randomradio]

Hi,

And the F35 would have Kill switches as well---not kill switches persay---but access denial or depleted access modes---.

I would be really shocked if India went for any american fighter aircraft---.

If we go for F-16s, then it won't have kill switches, or even if it did, we would control the ones that we have. It's because LM plans on moving its entire F-16 chain to India if the IAF chooses the F-16.

As for F-35, we will go through a similar process as the Israelis and have the ALIS transferred to India for our own jets. So the Americans won't have access to this database, nor will they be able to remotely kill the F-35. IN will be purchasing 57 jets and that will be followed by a MII program for the same type.

So what? are you trolling?We don't need J-20, its a single mission jet, instead we are interested in J-31 which is multi-role jet, J-31 suits PAF doctrine well

J-20 is a multirole jet. And the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-5th gen jet. Pick Turkey, the Chinese won't give you anything good. The J-31 is just export grade junk that they themselves won't induct.

 

[Ultima Thule]

If we go for F-16s, then it won't have kill switches, or even if it did, we would control the ones that we have. It's because LM plans on moving its entire F-16 chain to India if the IAF chooses the F-16.

As for F-35, we will go through a similar process as the Israelis and have the ALIS transferred to India for our own jets. So the Americans won't have access to this database, nor will they be able to remotely kill the F-35. IN will be purchasing 57 jets and that will be followed by a MII program for the same type.



J-20 is a multirole jet. And the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-5th gen jet. Pick Turkey, the Chinese won't give you anything good. The J-31 is just export grade junk that they themselves won't induct.

Secondary mission of J-20 is ground mission and why China can't give it to Pakistan, J-31 is 5th gen fighter, you are dafinately trolling against Pakistan I am reporting you for your insane post

 

[CriticalThought]

J-20 is a multirole jet. And the Chinese call the J-31 a pre-5th gen jet. Pick Turkey, the Chinese won't give you anything good. The J-31 is just export grade junk that they themselves won't induct.

J-31 with EJ-200 engine is exactly what the doctor ordered.

 

[randomradio]

Hmmm. F-35 is only going to get better over time with network-centric warfare. The original 'vision' calls for laser weapons (OK that's admittedly futuristic).

The F-35 is going to be about 10 years behind the FGFA in terms of hardware. For example, the FGFA will be carrying multiple optical radars that work in the entire microwave spectrum, not just X band or L band, in 360 degrees around the aircraft. And the PAK FA itself will be introduced with laser weapons and DIRCM right away, in a year or two. Introduction of DIRCM on the F-35 is post 2025 with the Block 5. And laser weapons on the F-35 could become available around a similar time frame, at least post 2020. And there's no guarantee they will export these systems right away. FGFA will carry lasers internally, the F-35 may not have that kind of space, forget the power.

As for sensor fusion, the Rafale is ahead of the F-35 today. The Rafale already provides multi-frequency LO/VLO for SEAD/DEAD. Then it has a SATCOM capability installed. It will also come with an external laser pod. DIRCM will soon be introduced. It's basically a F-35 without the internal bays. Even if the 2023 F-35 is fully developed and brings all the capabilities the Rafale does and more, it will still be irrelevant because the FGFA will be a step higher and will become the primary SEAD/DEAD aircraft for the IAF post 2030.

So there really isn't a need for the F-35 as far as the IAF is concerned. IN is a different ball game because the FGFA doesn't yet come in a CATOBAR configuration, and by the time it does, it will be a lot closer to 2030. That's very late, IN will be focusing on the N-AMCA by then. The current contract is for delivery from 2023-24. So the time frame for the FGFA does not suit the IN's requirements, but the F-35 does. By then, the F-35 would have achieved FOC.

But most importantly it offers co-operability with other nations. In future conflicts, the coalition will be wielding F-35s. You guys have global aspirations but no plans to become a global player?

India has no interest right now in a coalition system. We will cooperate in non-combat missions, like sharing intelligence, logistics etc. We do have global aspirations, but it won't be as an ally with the US or other countries.

In case, our rulers bite the bullet and accept coalitions, it won't affect the IAF. Due to the soft borders between India, China and Pakistan, IAF has no need to work in a coalition. But the IN can definitely benefit from working under a coalition system because they are building up expeditionary capabilities. So IA and IAF will end up doing their own thing while the IN may end up working with other countries.

The US has been pressuring India to initiate joint patrols between the USN and IN. So let's see what happens. IN wants to setup a large marine force as a long term goal, starting with a 5000 man brigade by 2022. This brigade will benefit from the F-35B since it can be launched from LHDs.

Anyway, you are the best people to calculate your own interests. The guarantee we have is that China will keep the balance of power. The day PAK-FA arrives in your inventory, we will get the appropriate response. And that doesn't include our partnership with Turkey on the TFX.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The issue with the Chinese is they don't provide their best tech. They develop export tech separately and sell that in a way where there is no PLA interference, which means they will sell tech that they have not developed for the PLA.

This a sincere suggestion. Go for Turkey. They will at least keep the jet as relevant as the F-35, even if it will be more expensive than the J-31.

Secondary mission of J-20 is ground mission and why China can't give it to Pakistan, J-31 is 5th gen fighter, you are dafinately trolling against Pakistan I am reporting you for your insane post

J-20 is a multirole jet. If they are calling the F-22 multirole, then J-20 is far better at ground strike than the F-22 is in terms of weapons options.

J-31 is a pre-5th gen jet according to the Chinese. Nothing insane about it. They literally called it a "pre-4th gen jet", their term. And they have clearly said the jet has been made for export. So what this means is it will be 5th gen or higher depending on how much is spent on its development.

If PAF says they want only 30-40 jets, then how much do you think China will spend on the jet? They will just give it basic capabilities that may not even be 5th gen. Make a commitment of about 200 jets like you did with JF-17, then we will see if it will be developed to 5th gen standards.

J-31 with EJ-200 engine is exactly what the doctor ordered.

It is an option, but I doubt the British will export their engine to China because the J-31 will have to be fitted for and flight tested and certified in China. That will require extensive information on the engine which goes against the sanctions.

Even India is going for an indigenous engine for AMCA. The Chinese should have an engine ready as well.

 

[CriticalThought]

The F-35 is going to be about 10 years behind the FGFA in terms of hardware. For example, the FGFA will be carrying multiple optical radars that work in the entire microwave spectrum, not just X band or L band, in 360 degrees around the aircraft. And the PAK FA itself will be introduced with laser weapons and DIRCM right away, in a year or two. Introduction of DIRCM on the F-35 is post 2025 with the Block 5. And laser weapons on the F-35 could become available around a similar time frame, at least post 2020. And there's no guarantee they will export these systems right away. FGFA will carry lasers internally, the F-35 may not have that kind of space, forget the power.

Question: Are you getting/going to get any French/Israeli assistance on this? If history is a good measure of the future, the weapons coming out of the Indo-Russian alliance have been late, costly, and have needed multiple iterations to catch up. Example: SU-30MKI. I read somewhere recently that even the new aircraft carrier based on Russian designs is being checked out by the Americans.

But by laser weapons, I meant something like this:

https://theaviationist.com/2013/11/22/usaf-lasers-on-jets/

As for sensor fusion, the Rafale is ahead of the F-35 today. The Rafale already provides multi-frequency LO/VLO for SEAD/DEAD. Then it has a SATCOM capability installed. It will also come with an external laser pod. DIRCM will soon be introduced. It's basically a F-35 without the internal bays. Even if the 2023 F-35 is fully developed and brings all the capabilities the Rafale does and more, it will still be irrelevant because the FGFA will be a step higher and will become the primary SEAD/DEAD aircraft for the IAF post 2030.

Fair enough. But you have only 36 of the Rafales. Even with all their jamming/detection capability, one aircraft carries only about 6 missiles. I don't see the benefit of getting this deal except if you guys are getting huge benefits in your other programs. The Kaveri is one. But I won't be surprised if French/Israeli tech finds its way into FGFA.

So there really isn't a need for the F-35 as far as the IAF is concerned. IN is a different ball game because the FGFA doesn't yet come in a CATOBAR configuration, and by the time it does, it will be a lot closer to 2030. That's very late, IN will be focusing on the N-AMCA by then. The current contract is for delivery from 2023-24. So the time frame for the FGFA does not suit the IN's requirements, but the F-35 does. By then, the F-35 would have achieved FOC.

Well, good luck. By the way, you haven't made it clear whether you are looking for N-AMCA or the F-35?

India has no interest right now in a coalition system. We will cooperate in non-combat missions, like sharing intelligence, logistics etc. We do have global aspirations, but it won't be as an ally with the US or other countries.

In case, our rulers bite the bullet and accept coalitions, it won't affect the IAF. Due to the soft borders between India, China and Pakistan, IAF has no need to work in a coalition. But the IN can definitely benefit from working under a coalition system because they are building up expeditionary capabilities. So IA and IAF will end up doing their own thing while the IN may end up working with other countries.

The US has been pressuring India to initiate joint patrols between the USN and IN. So let's see what happens. IN wants to setup a large marine force as a long term goal, starting with a 5000 man brigade by 2022. This brigade will benefit from the F-35B since it can be launched from LHDs.

Aaah OK, so you ARE going for F-35? And what about N-AMCA?

Being part of coalition comes with its own prizes. Who knows how much Britain gained from Iraq's oil wealth. The coalition taketh more than it giveth back.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The issue with the Chinese is they don't provide their best tech. They develop export tech separately and sell that in a way where there is no PLA interference, which means they will sell tech that they have not developed for the PLA.

This a sincere suggestion. Go for Turkey. They will at least keep the jet as relevant as the F-35, even if it will be more expensive than the J-31.

China will ensure the balance of power doesn't skew into India's favour. If that means giving us J-20, then they will give us J-20. Whatever it takes.

Only PAF knows what is going on with the TFX, but my dream is to first see the EJ-200 on J-31. More Turkish systems can come later. From this experience, we should be able to design and develop our own Gen 5+ fighter. Time will tell.

 

[randomradio]

Question: Are you getting/going to get any French/Israeli assistance on this? If history is a good measure of the future, the weapons coming out of the Indo-Russian alliance have been late, costly, and have needed multiple iterations to catch up. Example: SU-30MKI. I read somewhere recently that even the new aircraft carrier based on Russian designs is being checked out by the Americans.

...But I won't be surprised if French/Israeli tech finds its way into FGFA.

Help on the FGFA itself? No. But we will take their help in developing systems for LCA and AMCA and those will eventually end up on the FGFA in future iterations. As of today, the first version will only have 15-25% Indian input in terms of R&D, so most of the jet will have Russian tech on it.

FGFA will have multiple variants and iterations. The only weapon that's come out of an Indo-Russian alliance to date is the Brahmos.

But by laser weapons, I meant something like this:

https://theaviationist.com/2013/11/22/usaf-lasers-on-jets/

Yes, I was talking about these as well. F-35 and Rafale will have lasers on external pods.

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2015/08/france-funding-combat-laser-for-wing.html

India is developing laser weapons as well.

Fair enough. But you have only 36 of the Rafales.

The 36 will climb to 90 minimum. 36+18 followed by a new order of 36. Then we plan on having a new tender for 200 jets, Twin Engine Make In India, where Rafale is an obvious choice.

Even with all their jamming/detection capability, one aircraft carries only about 6 missiles. I don't see the benefit of getting this deal except if you guys are getting huge benefits in your other programs. The Kaveri is one.

You mean the Rafale, with 6 weapons? Perhaps, but that's more than enough actually. The other hard points will carry bombs and drop tanks.

Well, good luck. By the way, you haven't made it clear whether you are looking for N-AMCA or the F-35?

Aaah OK, so you ARE going for F-35? And what about N-AMCA?

The current competition will pit Rafale and the F-35 for 57 jets followed by a Make in India. So the requirement is immediate, contract signature is expected before 2021. The F-35 will still have to beat the Rafale though. The F-35 has some disadvantages for carrier aviation, like single engine, lower range, low payload etc. But it also has a VSTOL version which IN has had extensive experience on through the Sea Harrier. So it could go either way.

N-AMCA is a post 2030 aircraft.

Being part of coalition comes with its own prizes. Who knows how much Britain gained from Iraq's oil wealth. The coalition taketh more than it giveth back.

It's too early to say if India will involve itself in foreign wars. We have enough on our plate as it is.

Btw, we have been benefiting from both Iran and Iraq quite extensively. And you already know how close we are with the Afghan govt. So it's worked out quite well for us.

China will ensure the balance of power doesn't skew into India's favour. If that means giving us J-20, then they will give us J-20. Whatever it takes.

Only PAF knows what is going on with the TFX, but my dream is to first see the EJ-200 on J-31. More Turkish systems can come later. From this experience, we should be able to design and develop our own Gen 5+ fighter. Time will tell.

Balance of power is subjective. Our minimum numbers for FGFA is 350 for the manned version. So what number of J-20s will provide a balance of power? Is the J-20 superior or inferior to the FGFA? Is Pakistan financially and technically capable of handling a large twin engine aircraft? Will the availability of the jet match the FGFA? So many questions.

Then there's the relation dynamics between India, China and other countries. What if India supplies Afghanistan and Vietnam with the FGFA to counter the J-20 sale to Pak? So two can play at this game.

I think you will see the EJ200 on the TFX before the J-31.

 

[CriticalThought]

Balance of power is subjective. Our minimum numbers for FGFA is 350 for the manned version. So what number of J-20s will provide a balance of power? Is the J-20 superior or inferior to the FGFA? Is Pakistan financially and technically capable of handling a large twin engine aircraft? Will the availability of the jet match the FGFA? So many questions.

Then there's the relation dynamics between India, China and other countries. What if India supplies Afghanistan and Vietnam with the FGFA to counter the J-20 sale to Pak? So two can play at this game.

I think you will see the EJ200 on the TFX before the J-31.

Any FGFA's in Afghanistan will die an untimely death on the ground itself. There's a reason why US has not raised an airforce of any respectability. They are training helicopter pilots mostly, and the helicopters see regular crashes. Forget protecting FGFA, the Afghan government can't protect even the infrastructure required to keep FGFA running.

I have seen the discussion on indian defence forum about Vietnam. You guys aren't sure yourself if China will sit around while you arm Vietnam. I'll believe it when I see it.

When it comes to matters of security, Pakistan is capable of handling everything, complete with finances and infrastructure.

There is no harm in dreaming. Maybe Pakistan will do the integration of EJ-200 on TFX within Pakistan. Who knows...

 

[randomradio]

Any FGFA's in Afghanistan will die an untimely death on the ground itself. There's a reason why US has not raised an airforce of any respectability. They are training helicopter pilots mostly, and the helicopters see regular crashes. Forget protecting FGFA, the Afghan government can't protect even the infrastructure required to keep FGFA running.

It depends, this is long term. India will get the FGFA only in 2025, so you can imagine the FGFA being sold to Afghanistan only after 2035.

Their current objective is learning to operate the Super Tucano for close air support. Then they can perhaps start with the LCA or F-16 before switching to the FGFA.

The thing about small countries like Afghan is they don't need hundreds of jets like Pakistan or Sweden, they only need a few highly capable jets, like Malaysia or UAE. Even 1 squadron will do.

I have seen the discussion on indian defence forum about Vietnam. You guys aren't sure yourself if China will sit around while you arm Vietnam. I'll believe it when I see it.

Vietnam doesn't like China. They have fought wars until 1990.

 

[CriticalThought]

Vietnam doesn't like China. They have fought wars until 1990.

Hey, I have a beautiful and very sweet Vietnamese friend. And I know what she thinks about China. I am not doubting the existence of hostilities, I am doubting China's complacency in letting Vietnam rise up to challenge them. They would never let this happen. Some of those South China Sea disputes involve Vietnam as well.

 

[randomradio]

Hey, I have a beautiful and very sweet Vietnamese friend. And I know what she thinks about China. I am not doubting the existence of hostilities, I am doubting China's complacency in letting Vietnam rise up to challenge them. They would never let this happen. Some of those South China Sea disputes involve Vietnam as well.

According to a Vietnamese state channel, we have already signed Akash and Brahmos deals with Vietnam.