Discssion: Why it is better for PAF to enter 5th Gen league now .

[MastanKhan]

we were sanctioned by usa during time of b-57 , f104 , f16 so why do u expect us to go behind them now...they r retards....and i think u r fake id..(maybe true or false)

Hi,

The U S did not sanction pakistan air force all the time---.

It is actually the pakistan air force that allowed it to happen the last time---ie---the late 80's early 90's sanctions---.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Thanks for educating me.

Then lets get those J-31s then with Transfer of Technology. What are the hurdles?

Please read the comments about J31 by Zheng2. I watched the flight of J31 and did not get a warm and fuzzy feeling. So PAF should go for J20

 

[war&peace]

Very unfortunate to see that nobody is addressing the question i.e. topic of thread "Why it is better for PAF to enter 5th Gen league now"

Ans:
Well there are plethora of reasons beginning with most generic one

1. of course 5th is the future
2. the sooner the transition is made the better it is...since it takes a long time to integrate a new system (weapons integration and doctrinal integration) especially a next gen A/C.
3. It will give PAF a qualitative edge over IAF and PAF will be first AF to operate a 5th gen in the region
4. No good 4.5 gens options are available and PAF is not very keen
5. J-31 (Medium-heavy fighter) will provide great balance and complement JF17 block III (light A/C)
6. Per unit cost of J-31 manufactured in Pakistan will be in the same range as that of many 4.5 gens available on market (EFTs, Su35, Rafale, Grippen E, F-16V/blk 62)
7. A few sqdrns of J-20s will be great for maritime role especially striking the ships with CM400AKGs, C802, ALCMs etc
8. The timely induction of 5th gen will provide an ample gap between the next upgrades and induction of the next gen 5.5 or 6th gen will be synched with the other leading AF so PAF won't fall back.

 

[WarFariX]

Hi,

The U S did not sanction pakistan air force all the time---.

It is actually the pakistan air force that allowed it to happen the last time---ie---the late 80's early 90's sanctions---.

sir could you plz enlighten me with the reasons how did we get sanctioned all the time as i never came to know this plz...f104 , b57, f16

Please read the comments about J31 by Zheng2. I watched the flight of J31 and did not get a warm and fuzzy feeling. So PAF should go for J20

j31 is a new bird..u saw the flight of v1 ...while my friends saw flight of v2...chinese SAC themselves call v1 as just a tech demo and shit elephant..while v2 was made agiler than vipers...even j20 at prototype stage was performing shitty...now u can see that awesome bird...

Very unfortunate to see that nobody is addressing the question i.e. topic of thread "Why it is better for PAF to enter 5th Gen league now"

Ans:
Well there are plethora of reasons beginning with most generic one

1. of course 5th is the future
2. the sooner the transition is made the better it is...since it takes a long time to integrate a new system (weapons integration and doctrinal integration) especially a next gen A/C.
3. It will give PAF a qualitative edge over IAF and PAF will be first AF to operate a 5th gen in the region
4. No good 4.5 gens options are available and PAF is not very keen
5. J-31 (Medium-heavy fighter) will provide great balance and complement JF17 block III (light A/C)
6. Per unit cost of J-31 manufactured in Pakistan will be in the same range as that of many 4.5 gens available on market (EFTs, Su35, Rafale, Grippen E, F-16V/blk 62)
7. A few sqdrns of J-20s will be great for maritime role especially striking the ships with CM400AKGs, C802, ALCMs etc

so far the most on the point answer and i liked ur last point very much

 

[Arsalan]

sir could you plz enlighten me with the reasons how did we get sanctioned all the time as i never came to know this plz...f104 , b57, f16


j31 is a new bird..u saw the flight of v1 ...while my friends saw flight of v2...chinese SAC themselves call v1 as just a tech demo and shit elephant..while v2 was made agiler than vipers...even j20 at prototype stage was performing shitty...now u can see that awesome bird...s

Not only that it is/was a tech demonstrator but also being just a prototype and that too the first prototype it was never meant to be pushed to the limit and is always flown with great care and cautions! The second prototype will be a marked improvement and it will shows its true colors only once SBP units are out flying. On paper, it looks a tailor made solution to our future requirements.

Regarding the WHY part of the question, well because 5th gen is the future of air combat and because the big players are already working up 5th gen+ options so it is time we roll up our sleeves and enter the era. Also because joining a program at early stage will mean that we have all the required know how of the plane when it is inducted in numbers and also it will give us ample time to master the plane and get the max out of it. This is something VERY important and something that is quite often overlooked on online forums. You need YEARS to master a plane and get the best out of it. This is part of the reason why we still love the F16s!! We KNOW THEM!

One other important reason, that too missed sometimes is our JF17 project. That is still developing and the plane fits the bill and meet our needs perfectly, especially the $$$ part of it. So joining a 5th gen project now will mean LOADS of goodies integrated into the JF17 future batches as well and pave way for making JF17 relevant for decades to come.

 

[WarFariX]

Not only that it is/was a tech demonstrator but also being just a prototype and that too the first prototype it was never meant to be pushed to the limit and is always flown with great care and cautions! The second prototype will be a marked improvement and it will shows its true colors only once SBP units are out flying. On paper, it looks a tailor made solution to our future requirements.

Regarding the WHY part of the question, well because 5th gen is the future of air combat and because the big players are already working up 5th gen+ options so it is time we roll up our sleeves and enter the era. Also because joining a program at early stage will mean that we have all the required know how of the plane when it is inducted in numbers and also it will give us ample time to master the plane and get the max out of it. This is something VERY important and something that is quite often overlooked on online forums. You need YEARS to master a plane and get the best out of it. This is part of the reason why we still love the F16s!! We KNOW THEM!

One other important reason, that too missed sometimes is our JF17 project. That is still developing and the plane fits the bill and meet our needs perfectly, especially the $$$ part of it. So joining a 5th gen project now will mean LOADS of goodies integrated into the JF17 future batches as well and pave way for making JF17 relevant for decades to come.

tbh u included all important points in ur message..good one...i would like to add up some more...ACM's vision of going beyond 5th gen indicating 5++th gen as already like u meantioned powers like china and russia and i bet france is also secretly working on something greater than 5th gen so getting fc31 initially with tot will give us much much info and thunder program blok 4/5 can also gain much from this in terms of avionics....once we get knowledge from thunder project and fc31 tot , we would be just step away to producing something really 5++ gen in home....IMO we must go for MAKING single engine FIXED and delta config of TFX at home so in that way we can call it indigenous as well as we can make it 5++..not to forget that we must get j31 before as india has released funds for AMCA 3 days ago as well as requested russia to boost t50 so that they can be inducted before 2023

 

[araz]

Not only that it is/was a tech demonstrator but also being just a prototype and that too the first prototype it was never meant to be pushed to the limit and is always flown with great care and cautions! The second prototype will be a marked improvement and it will shows its true colors only once SBP units are out flying. On paper, it looks a tailor made solution to our future requirements.

Regarding the WHY part of the question, well because 5th gen is the future of air combat and because the big players are already working up 5th gen+ options so it is time we roll up our sleeves and enter the era. Also because joining a program at early stage will mean that we have all the required know how of the plane when it is inducted in numbers and also it will give us ample time to master the plane and get the max out of it. This is something VERY important and something that is quite often overlooked on online forums. You need YEARS to master a plane and get the best out of it. This is part of the reason why we still love the F16s!! We KNOW THEM!

One other important reason, that too missed sometimes is our JF17 project. That is still developing and the plane fits the bill and meet our needs perfectly, especially the $$$ part of it. So joining a 5th gen project now will mean LOADS of goodies integrated into the JF17 future batches as well and pave way for making JF17 relevant for decades to come.

A really good post. It highlights the blessings of having a programme like JFT. Upgradability as we go along with out any restrictions. Personally the cost element of setting up infrastruture of another 4th generation platofrm is such that I think we will only go for a 5th generation platform next as otherwise the costs will become a hinderance for us.
The only point to ponder is when such a platform will become available as J31 is not ready and there is a delay even with F35. TFX and other offerings are far away. So how far and how long do we wait and what the impact will be with the inductions over the border.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

sir could you plz enlighten me with the reasons how did we get sanctioned all the time as i never came to know this plz...f104 , b57, f16

Hi,

The 90's sanctions were nuc related---. But they did not happen just like that---. The americans had clearly warned the pakistanis years before what was coming---.

For that reason---many a well wishers of pakistan had recommended for the Paf to go for the M2K's rather than the second tranche of F16's---.

For the reason---if the americans saw an equally capable aircraft in Paf---they won't force the sanctions---it would defeat the purpose---because the sanctions are to weaken you---if they do not effect you---they become moot---.

Paf did not listen to them---. It was very simple---M2K was the answer---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Posters need to understand the psyche of the chinese---. The reason J31 was left behind was that the chinese invested all in the J20---for them---there was no reason to invest in two seperate programs---.

They directed their energies to one program---the J20 is in a ' ready ' and now some of that energy can be diverted towards the J31---as needed---.

The price of the J20 / J31 is one thing---the operating costs are another issue---.

If Paf thinks that if it could not afford the M2K or the Rafale---then how could they afford the maintenance of a stealth aircraft.

I don't see M2K / Rafale haters bringing that point out now---. How is the Paf going to afford it---.

If the Paf buys the 5th gen---then the M2k and Rafale being too expensive to maintain was a BLATANT LIE by the Paf---as they wanted to keep their future jobs with LockMart secure after retirement---.

 

[war&peace]

Hi,

Posters need to understand the psyche of the chinese---. The reason J31 was left behind was that the chinese invested all in the J20---for them---there was no reason to invest in two seperate programs---.

They directed their energies to one program---the J20 is in a ' ready ' and now some of that energy can be diverted towards the J31---as needed---.

The price of the J20 / J31 is one thing---the operating costs are another issue---.

If Paf thinks that if it could not afford the M2K or the Rafale---then how could they afford the maintenance of a stealth aircraft.

I don't see M2K / Rafale haters bringing that point out now---. How is the Paf going to afford it---.

If the Paf buys the 5th gen---then the M2k and Rafale being too expensive to maintain was a BLATANT LIE by the Paf---as they wanted to keep their future jobs with LockMart secure after retirement---.

Well I think there is still some time left in J-31 being ready and inducted so the used M2k9 from UAE could be a good solution if they are willing to sell to Pakistan. Though I don't know how not going for M2k9 but for J-31 or J-20 will increase their odds of getting jobs at LockMart