DG ISPR puts Indian Army Chief in his place

[Joe Shearer]

Between being asked to articulate a point of view to test the response, and distorting democracy by superseding democratic institutions, have you so readily made up your mind?

All I have to say is...

I'm making "bombastic" claims?

As long as we're discussing what's in the OP's post and within this thread then I'll continue. Otherwise, please continue to dissect my post to the last word.

When did I stop?

 

[Itachi]

Between being asked to articulate a point of view to test the response, and distorting democracy by superseding democratic institutions, have you so readily made up your mind?

Your country, like many others, is a champion at doing that. The whole world knows the sham of "secular & democratic India" and your Military too. That's why the IA comes out with these spectacular statements once in a while (watch the OP's video). Now you can point fingers at Pakistan (and other nations) like your buddy @MilSpec does because that's how you hide your Hindutva agendas but then again, we're talking only about India here. Open a thread (or respond to a Pakistan bashing one) and we can continue there if you want to talk about Pakistan (I don't).

You can't fool me with big/complex words but then again, that's what keyboard warriors do (not that I'm saying you're one).

 

[MilSpec]

Your country, like many others, is a champion at doing that. The whole world knows the sham of "secular & democratic India" and your Military too. That's why the IA comes out with these spectacular statements once in a while (watch the OP's video). Now you can point fingers at Pakistan (and other nations) like your buddy @MilSpec does because that's how you hide your Hindutva agendas but then again, we're talking only about India here. Open a thread (or respond to a Pakistan bashing one) and we can continue there if you want to talk about Pakistan (I don't).

You can't fool me with big/complex words but then again, that's what keyboard warriors do (not that I'm saying you're one).

How about we break it down;
Explain how Indian Democracy is sham:
Was there any irregularities in the electoral processes?
Was there any subversion of the mandate?
Was there any usurpation of democratically elected government?
Was the electoral outcome rejected by the opposition political parties?
Were the democratic rights of the citizens denied or any other voter suppression conducted to facilitate the current dispensation?
Was the constitution of the nation changed to facilitate a certain ideology or affiliated political organization?

Now if such practices were conducted that would raise doubts on the democratic nature, the only reason why i pointed out Pakistan is because all of the above have been the trademarks of a well recognized failure of democracy in the same.

Once we can address you misconceptions of democracy, then we can address secularism, both being alien entities from your standpoint.

 

[Itachi]

How about we break it down

No need to. You can follow the whole "process" as you like to describe and still have the current Modi India. Whether you followed the whole process is for you to prove since you like to say that you're a "democratic & secular nation" while your actions speak otherwise. Remember, actions speak louder than words.

If all you have to prove that your nation is what you call it to be is a bunch of pieces of paper & your words & the words of your leaders than lo & behold. They don't carry an iota of weight when there's evidence to say otherwise.

Hint: Butcher of Gujarat (still has to be prosecuted).....and I can name other cracks in your "democracy" too

Once we can address you misconceptions of democracy, then we can address secularism, both being alien entities from your standpoint.

None are alien to me but you seem to have a warped sense of reality. Ever went around your country and seen the situation of your people? I would like you to visit all states, come back and let's see if what you see is a secular & democratic nation or otherwise.

To add weight to my argument, I have talked to (in person, not online) to many of your countrymen. Some, if not most, seem to disagree with your sense of reality.

 

[MilSpec]

No need to. You can follow the whole "process" as you like to describe and still have the current Modi India. Whether you followed the whole process is for you to prove since you like to say that you're a "democratic & secular nation" while your actions speak otherwise. Remember, actions speak louder than words.

If all you have to prove that your nation is what you call it to be is a bunch of pieces of paper & your words & the words of your leaders than lo & behold. They don't carry an iota of weight when there's evidence to say otherwise.

Hint: Butcher of Gujarat (still has to be prosecuted).....and I can name other cracks in your "democracy" too

This is an amusing phenomenon,

You don't like the News: It's Fake news,
You don't like the music: Fake Musician.
You dont like the electoral outcome: Sham Democracy
We see a lot of this in my country as well as the one I reside in. It is quite amusing. @Joe Shearer

Now lets come to the meat and potatoes of your narrative, words don't matter and actions do. In this particular exchange there are no action other than typing words on my keyboard to engage with you, I cannot ram my thoughts into you brain through some telepathic action, so words have to do for now and actions of the electorate can only be described with words, so thats what you will have to focus on, I cannot magically seal you in a ballot box to show you the inner workings of an election. The reason why you take offence to these words is quite perplexing, you seem to have a firm belief that Indian democracy is a sham, but when asked to prove why, you cannot come with a single rational sentence other than your Butcher of Gujarat tourettes.
Now lets address you Gujarat Ramblings:
There are two aspects to it, the legal aspect and then the perceived position due to Modi's RSS origins.

Narendra Modi as a chief minister of Gujarat was not convicted of anything in Gujarat riots, Very similar to Pete Wilson was governor of California during Rodney King Riots and was not held responsible for the riots and who later ran a Presidential campaign.

Because Modi has RSS beginnings does not make him complicit in a riot neither do actions of Mob reflect upon the central or the state governments conduct, just like Direct action plan did not award M.A Jinnah a title of Butcher or disqualify him for a position in office.

None are aliens to me but you seem to have a warped sense of reality. Ever went around your country and seen the situation of your people? I would like you to visit all states, come back and let's see if what you see is a secular & democratic nation or otherwise.

To add weight to my argument, I have talked to (in person, not online) to many of your countrymen. Some, if not most, seem to disagree with your sense of reality.

And I have lived in the country and experienced it, of which a few you have had some conversations with, so I would definitely say that's a larger dataset than your few conversations. The proof of the pudding is really in the eating, if what you said was true a massive majority of established voices would have validated your claim, @Joe Shearer would be one the first to do so, are you really that arrogant that no matter what facts, figures and human experience suggest, you would rather stand by your assumptions just to malign the nationality you dislike, then there is really no difference between you and the OP, and if that is your position, the no need to reply to this post.

thanks .

 

[Itachi]

This is an amusing phenomenon,

You don't like the News: It's Fake news,
You don't like the music: Fake Musician.
You dont like the electoral outcome: Sham Democracy
We see a lot of this in my country as well as the one I reside in. It is quite amusing.

lol now you're just putting words in my mouth that I haven't even spoken. So typical of you when you can't counter what I have written.

Narendra Modi as a chief minister of Gujarat was not convicted of anything in Gujarat riots, Very similar to Pete Wilson was governor of California during Rodney King Riots and was not held responsible for the riots and who later ran a Presidential campaign.

Because Modi has RSS beginnings does not make him complicit in a riot neither do actions of Mob reflect upon the central or the state governments conduct, just like Direct action plan did not award M.A Jinnah a title of Butcher or disqualify him for a position in office.

Again you're pointing fingers or taking references from other nations or using the past as a the basis for the present. Just stop it before you start hurting your head. Wilson wasn't elected President, Modi was.

You can dive deep into this subject but what DG ISPR said is quite true.

Fix your own house before pointing fingers at others. Just because there's garbage in your neighbor's house, doesn't make the garbage in your house more holier.

And I my generations have lived in the country of which a few you have had some conversations with, the proof of the pudding is really in the eating, if what you said was true a massive majority of established voices would have validated your claim, @Joe Shearer would be one the first to do so, are you really that arrogant that no matter what facts, figures and human experience suggest, you would rather stand by your assumptions just to malign the nationality you dislike, then there is really no difference between you and the OP, and if that is your position, the no need to reply to this post.

thanks .

Now you're just jumping to conclusions. Who said I hate Indians? You? Who're you?

Please read before posting, I see multiple sentences that don't have correct English words in them. I don't like being a Grammar Nazi but it's making your post incomprehensible.

What's a "established" voice? One that gets paid to spew venom 24/7? (Hint: your media) or one that does independent research?

I'm not standing by my assumptions (I don't make any). I'm challenging you to prove the facts I have provided or at least the ones in OP's videos wrong.

Let's make it a bit easier. Prove Bipins words wrong & claim your "democracy" or admit that Modi's India is not a democracy.

Either way, enjoy your warped sense of reality.

This is an amusing phenomenon

I love Indian Democracy. Just a taste of what I can bring to the table to make your brain come to its sense.

 

[MilSpec]

lol now you're just putting words in my mouth that I haven't even spoken. So typical of you when you can't counter what I have written.




Again you're pointing fingers or taking references from other nations or using the past as a the basis for the present. Just stop it before you start hurting your head. Wilson wasn't elected President, Modi was.

You can dive deep into this subject but what DG ISPR said is quite true.

Fix your own house before pointing fingers at others. Just because there's garbage in your neighbor's house, doesn't make the garbage in your house more holier.



Now you're just jumping to conclusions. Who said I hate Indians? You? Who're you?

Please read before posting, I see multiple sentences that don't have correct English words in them. I don't like being a Grammar Nazi but it's making your post incomprehensible.

What's a "established" voice? One that gets paid to spew venom 24/7? (Hint: your media) or one that does independent research?

I'm not standing by my assumptions (I don't make any). I'm challenging you to prove the facts I have provided or at least the ones in OP's videos wrong.

Let's make it a bit easier. Prove Bipins words wrong & claim your "democracy" or admit that Modi's India is not a democracy.

Either way, enjoy your warped sense of reality.



I love Indian Democracy. Just a taste of what I can bring to the table to make your brain come to its sense.

A protest video, reported in the media is what you bring to the table, amusing. In india there are protests everyday, as freedom of speech is enshrined in the constitution, do protests nullify democracy, is that the logic you bring to the table?

Is that how you refute a nature democracy?
The questions I asked, you haven't answered a single one them. How has Indian electorate been subverted?

l
Again you're pointing fingers or taking references from other nations or using the past as a the basis for the present. Just stop it before you start hurting your head. Wilson wasn't elected President, Modi was.

Just out of curiosity, do you know precedence means?

l
Let's make it a bit easier. Prove Bipins words wrong & claim your "democracy" or admit that Modi's India is not a democracy.

Ohh, the irony, Democracy is not a fragile entity that can be contingent upon words of a General, I thought we weren't discussing Pakistan.

 

[Itachi]

Is that how you refute a nature democracy?

How is it a "democracy" when your Military is forcefully holding parts of the country together?

Like I said, you seem to not know what the word "democracy" means. Looks like they teach different meanings in India, heh?

Just out of curiosity, do you know precedence means?

Can you teach me the Indian definition?

Ohh, the irony, Democracy is not a fragile entity that can be contingent upon words of a General, I thought we weren't discussing Pakistan.

Yea but yours depend on the Military might holding it together.

And you keep bringing Pakistan in this & you're not even countering or even supporting Bipins words.

Stuck in a paradox, are we?

A protest video, reported in the media is what you bring to the table, amusing

I can bring more

There's actually whole threads of material (all public) that're enough to put Modi India as Modi India. Not "democratic India" or whatever you like to call it.

 

[MilSpec]

How is it a "democracy" when your Military is forcefully holding parts of the country together?

Like I said, you seem to not know what the word "democracy" means. Looks like they teach different meanings in India, heh?

Military has no role in elections, it is the election commision of India that conducts the elections. Military is deployed in areas like Kashmir valley, which has been invaded thrice by a hostile military theocracy, what other options are left there. Some northeastern parts of the country has Para-military forces deployed to combat insurgent forces.

Can you teach me the Indian definition?

Given examples of other riots are incomprehensible to you, i'm not sure an explanation would help in this case.

Yea but yours depend on the Military might holding it together.

And you keep bringing Pakistan in this & you're not even countering or even supporting Bipins words.

Stuck in a paradox, are we?

Not at all, you think A General's remark at a graduation congregation nullifies the democratic nature of India, and I am trying to explain that there is an entire world out there that does not run off the diktats of General but the concept seems to be inexplicable concept to you.

I can bring more

There's actually whole threads of material (all public) that're enough to put Modi India as Modi India. Not "democratic India" or whatever you like to call it.

You shouldn't wait for my permission, despite your ire India is recognized as the largest democracy on the planet and it's electoral process used for case study of academic institution around the world. Your butcher tourettes do not help your narrative at all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Your country, like many others, is a champion at doing that. The whole world knows the sham of "secular & democratic India" and your Military too. That's why the IA comes out with these spectacular statements once in a while (watch the OP's video). Now you can point fingers at Pakistan (and other nations) like your buddy @MilSpec does because that's how you hide your Hindutva agendas but then again, we're talking only about India here. Open a thread (or respond to a Pakistan bashing one) and we can continue there if you want to talk about Pakistan (I don't).

In other words, nothing we say is worth listening to, simply because we are Indian, and because you are Pakistani. Where is there any room for discussion, then?

1. 'Your country, like many others, is a champion at doing that.' Rubbish; we have been consistent and notable for our performance in maintaining institutional credibility, except during this present regime. If you believe that there are no distortions that creep in when there is a democratically determined change of regime, or rather, change of party in power, then that is a textbook-led distortion of reality. Next, you will seek levitation through exercise of mental powers.
2. 'The whole world knows the sham of "secular & democratic India" and your Military too.' I would be glad to read your sources of information for this, other than fellow members of yours on PDF.
3. 'That's why the IA comes out with these spectacular statements once in a while (watch the OP's video).' Yes, of course. History is littered with these examples, that only you can call to mind. Help the rest of us and our tottering memories; remind us of another such 'spectacular statements'. Condition: please don't quote a Pakistani general.
   
4. 'Now you can point fingers at Pakistan' - a silly and juvenile statement (big/complex word safeguard: 'juvenile' means childish). I have not 'pointed fingers' at Pakistan in nine years; it is unlikely, even from the unusual point of observation that you seem to occupy that I should feel an irresistible urge to do that today. That does not rule out my criticism of Pakistan when I felt it was a necessary criticism.
   Try the next street.
   
   '(and other nations)' - while big/complex words dislocate the train of thought for some, a general use of phrases and words like salt on a dish to be eaten dislocates the train of thought for others. Please stick to facts that you can demonstrate, and not airy nothings.
   
   'like your buddy @MilSpec does' - my buddy does a fine job of holding up his end of any discussion without my help, and so do I. If you feel isolated and friendless, it might be that others you might have enjoyed supporting you actively have actually tiptoed away. Not my fault; not my buddy's fault. The whole world, to use your tactics of sprinkling words and phrases throughout a comment, is out of step with you.
   
   'because that's how you hide your Hindutva agendas' - You think I have a Hindutva agenda? Seriously?
   
   'but then again, we're talking only about India here.' - For reasons not easy to fathom, you seem to think that restricting the discussion to India only will in some way buttress your arguments. Unfortunately, your arguments lack in many more things than you seem to have noticed. We could be talking about the Moon, but you would still stand friendless (other than getting prolifically 'like'd) and panic-stricken. Ease up. It is not the end of the world to have painted yourself into a corner, and I assure you that you will recover, and live to write other comments. It is we who should be panic-stricken at the prospect.

You can't fool me with big/complex words but then again, that's what keyboard warriors do (not that I'm saying you're one).

I never challenge experts at what they do best. Why should even try to fool you?

Look, I'll even help you:

'articulate'
'distorting'
'superseding'

Which are the ones giving you a headache? I'll explain them, or it.

 

[Itachi]

In other words, nothing we say is worth listening to, simply because we are Indian, and because you are Pakistani. Where is there any room for discussion, then?

I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth like @MilSpec or that might be your mindset from talking to the majority of the Pakistanis on PDF.

I treat you as a host on PDF & value your pov's.

Either way, completely untrue.

• 'Your country, like many others, is a champion at doing that.' Rubbish; we have been consistent and notable for our performance in maintaining institutional credibility, except during this present regime. If you believe that there are no distortions that creep in when there is a democratically determined change of regime, or rather, change of party in power, then that is a textbook-led distortion of reality. Next, you will seek levitation through exercise of mental powers.

• 'The whole world knows the sham of "secular & democratic India" and your Military too.' I would be glad to read your sources of information for this, other than fellow members of yours on PDF.

• 'That's why the IA comes out with these spectacular statements once in a while (watch the OP's video).' Yes, of course. History is littered with these examples, that only you can call to mind. Help the rest of us and our tottering memories; remind us of another such 'spectacular statements'. Condition: please don't quote a Pakistani general.

• 'Now you can point fingers at Pakistan' - a silly and juvenile statement (big/complex word safeguard: 'juvenile' means childish). I have not 'pointed fingers' at Pakistan in nine years; it is unlikely, even from the unusual point of observation that you seem to occupy that I should feel an irresistible urge to do that today. That does not rule out my criticism of Pakistan when I felt it was a necessary criticism.
  Try the next street.
  
  '(and other nations)' - while big/complex words dislocate the train of thought for some, a general use of phrases and words like salt on a dish to be eaten dislocates the train of thought for others. Please stick to facts that you can demonstrate, and not airy nothings.
  
  'like your buddy @MilSpec does' - my buddy does a fine job of holding up his end of any discussion without my help, and so do I. If you feel isolated and friendless, it might be that others you might have enjoyed supporting you actively have actually tiptoed away. Not my fault; not my buddy's fault. The whole world, to use your tactics of sprinkling words and phrases throughout a comment, is out of step with you.
  
  'because that's how you hide your Hindutva agendas' - You think I have a Hindutva agenda? Seriously?
  
  'but then again, we're talking only about India here.' - For reasons not easy to fathom, you seem to think that restricting the discussion to India only will in some way buttress your arguments. Unfortunately, your arguments lack in many more things than you seem to have noticed. We could be talking about the Moon, but you would still stand friendless (other than getting prolifically 'like'd) and panic-stricken. Ease up. It is not the end of the world to have painted yourself into a corner, and I assure you that you will recover, and live to write other comments. It is we who should be panic-stricken at the prospect.

What a bunch of...well, I can't put my words onto it.

Let's make this straight, I don't need friends to back me up a online forum, PDF of all of it. Neither have I requested "backup". I'm not like you guys

If you actually go back 1/2 pages, you'll see that's it just me, you & @MilSpec going at it.

Since you need a bit of "convincing evidence" then watch the below video. You might come to sense from the warped sense of reality that you call "democratic & secular India".

https://twitter.com/x/status/1071791676136480768

Your country even call themselves "Hindustan". Not India. Even if it's India then it's "Modis' India" not "secular & democratic India".

 

[Joe Shearer]

I never said that. You're putting words in my mouth like @MilSpec

Yes, I am was. I was just being helpful; thought you were going that way, and would save you the trouble.

or that might be your mindset from talking to the majority of the Pakistanis on PDF.

I know this will surprise you, but the majority of Pakistanis on PDF talking to me are very decent and civilised and very open-minded about Indians. My theory about this is that most of us react; we pick up cues and signals from what others are saying (or writing), and move out from there. So Indians acting snarky about Pakistanis get a bad reaction; Indians behaving like gentlemen, and standing up for their side without stooping to bad-mouthing Pakistanis get treated with courtesy and politeness. Sometimes (ahem) some young palooka tries to take the Mickey, but that's all right. Part of the deal.

I treat you as a host on PDF & value your pov's.

Now don't make me blush.

Either way, completely untrue.

Damn! Back to the drawing board.

What a bunch of...well, I can't put my words onto it.

Codswallop?

Let's make this straight, I don't need friends to back me up a online forum, PDF of all of it. Neither have I requested "backup". I'm not like you guys

No harm putting a pushy young menace into a posture of self-defence.

If you actually go back 1/2 pages, you'll see that's it just me, you & @MilSpec going at it.

@MilSpec

He's twigged us. Let's get out of here.

Since you need a bit of "convincing evidence" then watch the below video. You might come to sense from the warped sense of reality that you call "democratic & secular India".

Your country even call themselves "Hindustan". Not India. Even if it's India then it's "Modis' India" not "secular & democratic India".

To those apes, yes. Not to the 69% of Indian voters who DID NOT vote BJP.

This came to me earlier this morning from a KM friend. It was enfuriating to see it. My response to him immediately.

Kashmiri kids are safe here, in Telangana.

 

[Salik]

This government was absolutely clear from day one. Rhetoric is in it's own place, you cannot arm people in Kashmir with Ak's and M4's and then expect us to respond to peace overtures. Those aman kis asha meet and greets with weekly bombings in market square has no value at all. If there is any substantive chance for a dialogue, stop arming militants, and then there is possibility.

Now although bitter, most members here have trouble reconciling with the fact that your Military just doesn't make statements but backs it up with actions to cut the legs off of the politcal narrative of Pakistan.
Vajpayee take a bus to open routes to Pakistan > Pakistan army Infiltrates into Kargil.
Manmohan singh Makes overtures of Peace> ISI facilitates 26/11
Modi meets Nawaz Sharif in unprecedented move> URI attacks are conducted.

Your establishment shows strength by hitting out at India and Indian interests to reiterate how puny your electorate mandate is time and again, and thus we just have learned our lessons. We are not in a hurry for any unilateral overtures, let your army be on the same page and then we can talk. There is no emergency on our borders that we need to mitigate right away in context of an existential threat.

What about cricket? Is it that, that whenever India plays with Pakistan, Pakistanis start ball tampering. Or, that India deliberately loses a match to Pakistan and Pakistan doesn't reciprocate in next match?

 

[Reichsmarschall]

LMAO

Answer his question or shut up
Whataboutery isn't going to save your face