DG ISPR puts Indian Army Chief in his place

[MilSpec]

Tit for Tat, you expect people to shout "NO PEACE TILL PAKISTAN IS SECULAR" and we will sit down and invite you for tea? Lets get down to brasstacks please! Indian gov has rebuffed all positive gestures made by IK's gov. No sympathy for the present direction India has taken towards OUR country! None, Zilch, Nada, kaput!

This government was absolutely clear from day one. Rhetoric is in it's own place, you cannot arm people in Kashmir with Ak's and M4's and then expect us to respond to peace overtures. Those aman kis asha meet and greets with weekly bombings in market square has no value at all. If there is any substantive chance for a dialogue, stop arming militants, and then there is possibility.

Now although bitter, most members here have trouble reconciling with the fact that your Military just doesn't make statements but backs it up with actions to cut the legs off of the politcal narrative of Pakistan.
Vajpayee take a bus to open routes to Pakistan > Pakistan army Infiltrates into Kargil.
Manmohan singh Makes overtures of Peace> ISI facilitates 26/11
Modi meets Nawaz Sharif in unprecedented move> URI attacks are conducted.

Your establishment shows strength by hitting out at India and Indian interests to reiterate how puny your electorate mandate is time and again, and thus we just have learned our lessons. We are not in a hurry for any unilateral overtures, let your army be on the same page and then we can talk. There is no emergency on our borders that we need to mitigate right away in context of an existential threat.

 

[RescueRanger]

let you army be on the same page and then we can talk.

This is the only government where there is CMCOORD! If India can't see that, their letting their mistrust get the better of them.

 

[MilSpec]

This is the only government where there is CMCOORD! If India can't see that, their letting their mistrust get the better of them.

That is the issue tactical actions can have strategic implications.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Oh people can ask whatever they want, but the selective-ness of questioning is quite amusing,

Following is example of the subtle diplomatic tone used by your own generals under a "demoocratic" government.
which did not make you guys bat an eyelid.
"Pakistan: Army Chief Raheel Sharif claimed he was fully aware of India's nefarious designs and the tactics being used by PM Narendra Modi and RAW."

Huge difference - one would expect the Indian military to make similar comments (about being aware of Pakistan's nefarious designs) about Pakistan (and they do).

Making statements about placing conditions on diplomatic engagement with another country is different, not to mention that Indian Army Chief made that condition one of Pakistan changing the structure of her constitution.

 

[MilSpec]

Huge difference - one would expect the Indian military to make similar comments (about being aware of Pakistan's nefarious designs) about Pakistan (and they do).

Is it really though,"Pakistan made itself an Islamic state. If they have to stay together with India, then they have to develop as a secular state," the Chief of Army Staff said.
it's an if statement, a suggestion to Pakistan at most.

Making statements about placing conditions on diplomatic engagement with another country is different, not to mention that Indian Army Chief made that condition one of Pakistan changing the structure of her constitution.

Again unlike Pakistan, Indian political dispensation doesn't look for diktats from the military brass, and military brass doesn't indulge in giving diktats to the leadership either. Army chief did not make any conditions but rather an unsolicited advice for a constitutional change to Pakistan (Which btw has been changed what 3 times now?).

 

[Itachi]

Every democracy has changes in ruling party, and that leads to a certain amount of change and re-orientation in policy, doctrine and public stance. So if you will kindly calm down, this kind of transience is always present; even for a committed opponent of the BJP such as I, the need for periodic re-examination of everything from the ground it is necessary to subject all our habitual attitudes, stances and actions to unrelenting scrutiny, even hostile scrutiny.

As for the remark you have answered, there is whataboutery on both sides; it is disingenuous to be so vastly surprised when it is found with an Indian member.

I don't care if it came from a Indian or a Pakistani or even a Martian. It came from a TT. Reality is that India does not fall under the criteria of a "democracy". We can argue for 10-pages on this but let's be real. I, like you, do not like the BJP and unfortunately a democracy does not appoint a butcher as their head of state. If they're appointed that means majority agrees on it.

What part of indian chief just made a remark was incomprehensible to you? I can simplify things for belligerence 24/7 of majority of members, but I do fall short of finding the cure of lack of comprehension.

It is more than "just a remark". It came from the highest office of the Indian military. How do you suppose for us to not take it seriously? We're no children.

If a Pakistani general had said it, millions would be crying rivers by now. Just look at your media that jumps up and down over a pigeon.

It might have been "a innocent remark" in the public but we know what you say behind closed doors. And sometimes, the truth slips out.

Again unlike Pakistan, Indian political dispensation doesn't look for diktats from the military brass, and military brass doesn't indulge in giving diktats to the leadership either. Army chief did not make any conditions but rather an unsolicited advice for a constitutional change to Pakistan (Which btw has been changed what 3 times now?).

You sure about that? I don't want to go around embarrassing you. There's public material out there that would and has put your military to shame.

 

[MilSpec]

You sure about that? I don't want to go around embarrassing you. There's public material out there that would and has put your military to shame.

You can try, nothing should stop you there.

I don't care if it came from a Indian or a Pakistani or even a Martian. It came from a TT. Reality is that India does not fall under the criteria of a "democracy". We can argue for 10-pages on this but let's be real. I, like you, do not like the BJP and unfortunately a democracy does not appoint a butcher as their head of state. If they're appointed that means majority agrees on it.

Interesting, criterion for democracy;
Has the government been elected through the largest electoral process in the world?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-26847432

Has the opposition parties denounced the outcome of the elections? - Like say in Pakistan
1977 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Pakistani_general_election to
2018 https://www.rferl.org/a/pakistan-pti-pml-national-assembly-elections/29543844.html

Has the Military thrown out the electorate? (again like say in pakistan - three times)

Has the constitution of the country subverted by whims and fancies of Generals? (say like in Pakistan)

You should probably think twice before lecturing us on Democracy. BJP came to power on an agenda of economic progress, if they dont deliver they will be shown the door, you on the other hand irrespective of your military wining or loosing, will never relinquish it's stranglehold of it's noose on the electorate, and there lies the difference.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't care if it came from a Indian or a Pakistani or even a Martian. It came from a TT. Reality is that India does not fall under the criteria of a "democracy". We can argue for 10-pages on this but let's be real. I, like you, do not like the BJP and unfortunately a democracy does not appoint a butcher as their head of state. If they're appointed that means majority agrees on it.

I don't see how you reach that far-fetched conclusion. The US elected Donald Trump, with a majority (albeit one that is questioned very often); do they cease to be a democracy? Turkey elected Erdogan; have they stopped being a democracy? The Philippines elected Duterte; how about them?

They've all appointed thoroughly unsuitable people as head of state.

Your argument just amounts to saying what you believe often, and very loudly; doesn't make it any better.

Further, @Irfan Baloch, someone for whom I have respect and affection, is not a TT. I suggest you put on your specs before going on line.

It is more than "just a remark". It came from the highest office of the Indian military. How do you suppose for us to not take it seriously? We're no children.

If a Pakistani general had said it, millions would be crying rivers by now. Just look at your media that jumps up and down over a pigeon.

It might have been "a innocent remark" in the public but we know what you say behind closed doors. And sometimes, the truth slips out.



You sure about that? I don't want to go around embarrassing you. There's public material out there that would and has put your military to shame.

 

[Novice09]

Small mind, big office. Think IK needs to retweet that to the Indian COAS

Will take one MORE "U" TURN... when required... he is a SMART politician...

 

[RescueRanger]

You know we are on the mark when the neighbor's panties are in a twist!

 

[Itachi]

Interesting, criterion for democracy;
Has the government been elected through the largest electoral process in the world?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-26847432

Has the opposition parties denounced the outcome of the elections? - Like say in Pakistan
1977 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_Pakistani_general_election to
2018 https://www.rferl.org/a/pakistan-pti-pml-national-assembly-elections/29543844.html

Has the Military thrown out the electorate? (again like say in pakistan - three times)

Has the constitution of the country subverted by whims and fancies of Generals? (say like in Pakistan)

You should probably think twice before lecturing us on Democracy. BJP came to power on an agenda of economic progress, if they dont deliver they will be shown the door, you on the other hand irrespective of your military wining or loosing, will never relinquish it's stranglehold of it's noose on the electorate, and there lies the difference.

We're talking about India here and what the Indian Military had to say. Don't try to bring Pakistan in this, that won't work on me. If you have a problem with how Pakistan works, open a new thread and we can talk there.

The fact remains that India chose a butcher as their head of state and a extremist party as the leading one. Since the majority chose it, a lot in the military would obviously be thinking along the lines too.

As we see more of Modi India, we will continue to see what @Windjammer posted.

I don't see how you reach that far-fetched conclusion. The US elected Donald Trump, with a majority (albeit one that is questioned very often); do they cease to be a democracy? Turkey elected Erdogan; have they stopped being a democracy? The Philippines elected Duterte; how about them?

They've all appointed thoroughly unsuitable people as head of state.

Your argument just amounts to saying what you believe often, and very loudly; doesn't make it any better.

Further, @Irfan Baloch, someone for whom I have respect and affection, is not a TT. I suggest you put on your specs before going on line.

Lets not bring other nations head of states in this. We're talking about India here, lets stay on topic. Shall we?

Refer to what I stated and we will move on with the discussion, otherwise, it'll be 10-pages of arguing/debates with no end. As to what @Irfan Baloch said then that's between you and him. I only stopped by because of what @MilSpec wrote. He was using the past as a counterpoint to what's happening right now. That never works all of the time and not certainly this time.

Also, I don't need specs, at least not in this age old man.

 

[Joe Shearer]

We're talking about India here and what the Indian Military had to say. Don't try to bring Pakistan in this, that won't work on me. If you have a problem with how Pakistan works, open a new thread and we can talk there.

The fact remains that India chose a butcher as their head of state and a extremist party as the leading one. Since the majority chose it, a lot in the military would obviously be thinking along the lines too.

As we see more of Modi India, we will continue to see what @Windjammer posted.

Lets not bring other nations head of states in this. We're talking about India here, lets stay on topic. Shall we?

Why not? That's very much on topic, to show you the difference between democracy and the moral strength of the democratically elected.

Refer to what I stated and we will move on with the discussion, otherwise, it'll be 10-pages of arguing/debates with no end. As to what @Irfan Baloch said then that's between you and him.

LOL. You don't set the rules; it is mutually set.

We talked about Irfan Baloch because of your bombastic claim that it was a TT who made a remark. Clearly, you don't like being caught in your loose use of terms.

I only stopped by because of what @MilSpec wrote. He was using the past as a counterpoint to what's happening right now. That never works all of the time and not certainly this time.

Your opinion. Have you thought of the dreadful possibility that your opinion might not be worth anything?

After what I've read so far, @MilSpec certainly has an edge over you in terms of reasoning power.

Also, I don't need specs, at least not in this age old man.

Descended to that, have we? You don't mind, then, if it is pointed out that while you think might not need specs, you also seem to have dispensed with brains.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Huge difference - one would expect the Indian military to make similar comments (about being aware of Pakistan's nefarious designs) about Pakistan (and they do).

Making statements about placing conditions on diplomatic engagement with another country is different, not to mention that Indian Army Chief made that condition one of Pakistan changing the structure of her constitution.

Another huge difference is that the Indian COAS has the ordinary citizen's right to speak out, although in my own personal opinion, it would be better if that official were to be circumspect. That is not the situation with the Pakistani COAS; I am deliberately not calling him the counterpart of the Indian COAS, because he is not. The Pakistani personage is welded into the establishment. When the Pakistani General makes a similar statement, it is as such a welded component that he speaks, not freely, of his own free will, not in the blunt, earthy way of Bipin Rawat, but with all the awareness of the impact of his words that manipulators in high places possess.

Recently, when Lt. Gen. D. S. Hooda deplored the actions described as the surgical strike on Pakistan being used for self-promotion by the BJP, General Rawat pointed out that Hooda was a senior retired officer, and it should not be made controversial. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander; Rawat should be allowed that degree of liberty that he recognised ought to be given to senior people

 

[Moonlight]

The truth is that Gen. Rawat is being used as a mouthpiece by the government[/QUOTE

So the question is, Indian army isn’t very professional? Being used as a puppet!?
One way or the other, interfering in politics?

 

[Itachi]

Why not? That's very much on topic, to show you the difference between democracy and the moral strength of the democratically elected.



LOL. You don't set the rules; it is mutually set.

We talked about Irfan Baloch because of your bombastic claim that it was a TT who made a remark. Clearly, you don't like being caught in your loose use of terms.



Your opinion. Have you thought of the dreadful possibility that your opinion might not be worth anything?

After what I've read so far, @MilSpec certainly has an edge over you in terms of reasoning power.



Descended to that, have we? You don't mind, then, if it is pointed out that while you think might not need specs, you also seem to have dispensed with brains.

All I have to say is...

I'm making "bombastic" claims?

As long as we're discussing what's in the OP's post and within this thread then I'll continue. Otherwise, please continue to dissect my post to the last word.