Developed cancer drug for 'western patients' who could afford, not 'for Indians': Bayer's CEO

[drunken-monke]

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2. cGMP, UFFDA, Austrialian FDA, WHO
is not cgmp mandatory for any exporting pharma unit...?
nothing g8 in it.
outside USA india have most number of USFDA approved plants.
so thats basic ...its default cost....for paracetamol to any high end formulation

Yes it is great.. Although India has most number of USFDA approved plants outside USA, recently most number of import alert are also received to the Indian plants for cGMP violation..

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3. Drug cost and tech
Drug cost is imp so do tech but its should deliver on imp result .. the health of patient .. without discrimination
you must me knowing more than manufacturing ,marketing takes high cost.. free bies to xyz...free international holidays to xyz
who sponsor it and from whom pharma companies will recover?
point is pharma companies also playing game by indulging "unethical practice" ..yes i stand by it..

Not all, but yes it is happening in India.. Why generics are preferred in USA or other developed nations because in their healthcare system, the cost of healthcare is bared by health Insurance which ensures that minimum is the cost (with no compromise with quality). If we want to implement the generic system, we need to implement US like regulations and system to ensure quality medicines are distributed among the peoples/patients. And yes unethical practice is done by many (not all) in India at a higher level now a days.. Only need is a stringent law and regulations.. See I want best healthcare facilities for me and my countrymates, the only is that it comes with higher cost and political will....

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no all are bad though..
we have to come clean both govt and companies..
i think gove played their role.. if any issue companies have their respective forum to raise issue..

thanks

The bolded part is the the issue.. You got it absolutely right.. You know DPCO is a hindrance to good tech medicines for domestic Indian market.

Regards..

Bro i did my med schooling from india and now am in the states. I also have dabbled in diagnostic test development in the US. I know the garbage that comes out of india in the name of research. Even countries like spain are light years ahead of India. Compulsory licensing is a way by which GOI tries to rationalize its utter failure in promoting original research and development work back home.

Being a Pharmaceutical professional, Can't agree more than this...

 

[gambit]

You are one to talk about 'morally correct' when you would have potentially millions of Indians suffer from lack of affordable access to medicine.

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government have the right to compel morally righteous acts, as defined by the GoI, from foreigners within its jurisdiction.

 

[surya kiran]

You cannot avoid the fact that compulsory licensing upon Bayer is the first for India.

GlaxoSmithKline licenses production of generic AIDS drugs in South Africa

This is VOLUNTARY, not compelled. So the issue is not about helping the host country in times of need. If GSK can do it, so can Bayer. And Natco Pharma is not doing this for charity.


That does not mean it is the right thing to exercise.

What is right for us and as we deem necessary is what will be done. We have differing points of view on this, where I do not believe in the line of logic you seem to be using. Its approved by WTO, so we will use it. VOLUNTARY OR NOT. Get used to this, else, like I mentioned Indian Pharmas are more than glad to take over.

 

[kbd-raaf]

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government have the right to compel morally righteous acts, as defined by the GoI, from foreigners within its jurisdiction.

As defined by the WTO not the GoI, of which both the GoI and GotUS are signatories.

If you feel the WTO is disadvantaging American interests, you are free to petition your local Senator to promote the cause for American resignation from the WTO.

 

[gambit]

What is right for us and as we deem necessary is what will be done. We have differing points of view on this, where I do not believe in the line of logic you seem to be using. Its approved by WTO, so we will use it. VOLUNTARY OR NOT. Get used to this, else, like I mentioned Indian Pharmas are more than glad to take over.

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government reserve the right to compel foreigners to share the fruits of their labor and deny profits within its jurisdiction.

 

[kbd-raaf]

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government reserve the right to compel foreigners to share the fruits of their labor and deny profits within its jurisdiction.

Yes, it's already been said.

It's known as taxes in India.

 

[Chronos]

Yes, it's already been said.

It's known as taxes in India.

It's known as gifts

 

[drunken-monke]

India develops nothing. Nobody would want to copy that. Thats the thing. They have no development costs, because they have no development. As i said, we should strip india from pharma market and let them deal themself with their parasitic behavior. Beside that, don´t cry me a river for their ill. I simply don´t care. Their government acts parasitic, and india does not help in global science.
Basic is:

India does invest nothing, risks nothing but steals science from others. With that it stops others to invest in research, which will hurt us all in the end. I don´t expect smart moves from this government. I guess the level is the same as their pharma science...sub zero. 0 innovation. I just guess they **** it up and copy something like Contergan there. That would be irony.

Imagine all those who take the fake drugs get deformed children. What goes around comes around. You get what you pay for. When you want it cheap you get it cheap. Who will they sue then?

Its not true.. We are inventing a lot.. Its just the financial issues with India Inc that plays as a hindrance to the innovations... If you go about 30-40 years back, today's developed nations have done stealing copying and many unethical work in different fields..
India is the only country after USA to produce recombinant based insulin which it worked out by its own... there are many, just mentioned one..
Here is the list of innovations if you want to know...
List of Indian inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[surya kiran]

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government reserve the right to compel foreigners to share the fruits of their labor and deny profits within its jurisdiction.

If thats the way you look at it, so be it. Do add the caveat as globally accepted as per TRIPS.

 

[gambit]

If thats the way you look at it, so be it. Do add the caveat as globally accepted as per TRIPS.

I have no problems with voluntary charity and I do wish there are more socially responsive companies out there. But legal compulsion is not the answer. So if you want to see legalized theft in India, so be it. Just do not complain about the morality of foreign companies WHEN they begins to withdraw from India. The fact that India still struggles means that no matter how much you guys may boasts about Indian pharmas, they will not be able to provide for India.

 

[drunken-monke]

The only indian NASA astronaut i know is Kalpana Chawla. And i heared she got fired.

But i ask you, how do you protect our legitimate interests and secure our profits so we invest them in research? How is that part of your plan? Or does it only implement stealing? How do you prevent that we invest billions of € and then you steal the profits, let us alone with the risk and destroy our income?

This is a very outrageous remark for our demised hero... She was a mission specialist who lost her life while returning on earth in Atlantis incident... Markus you are a freak devil who do not have respect for great people who have laid their life for welfare of human civilization..

Dear Mods, sorry for personal attack, but could not bare the insult of our national hero...

 

[surya kiran]

I have no problems with voluntary charity and I do wish there are more socially responsive companies out there. But legal compulsion is not the answer. So if you want to see legalized theft in India, so be it. Just do not complain about the morality of foreign companies WHEN they begins to withdraw from India. The fact that India still struggles means that no matter how much you guys may boasts about Indian pharmas, they will not be able to provide for India.

Lets agree to disagree on the topic. Like I said, pharma companies exiting India will not be a remote possibility. They have enough money making businesses here to stay back.

Having said that, I have also mentioned, its about negotiation. This is the first time such a license has been brought in. It is also up to the pharma companies to work with the government and bring out an Act which will be mutually beneficial.

 

[anonymus]

@gambit


The particular drug was priced at a rate where probably not more than a million people out of 1.2 billion would have been able to afford it. India does not have a socialist medical insurance system in which government bears your health care expense. On top of it No Insurer in India provides open ended insurance, no one ( they used to do it till 2010 ) so in effect people have to pay for these from their pocket.In US, health cost are hyper inflated but that is not a problem since in Insurance driven model, people who buy insurance but do not use it cross-subsidize those who use it.

The particular business/pricing strategy that Bayer adopted in India was not even in their commercial interest in India. They adopted that model not to maximize their revenue from India ( which is a very small market for Bayer ) but for protection of it's business model in US and developed world.( Price difference in India and western market could lead to pressure for price reduction in their primary market ).

Now the situation for now is this that India has provided compulsory licence for production of Bayer's drug which is completely legal under both International and US law ( TRIPS; the provisions of which were agreed upon after bargaining in which US gained economically ) and Bayer would be paid royalty of 7 % and are free to sell original molecule at whatever rate they deem fit.Financially, it may bring much higher revenue to Bayer than their practical embargo would have brought them.They have not even accounted Indian market in their revenue expectations.( both this statement and their pricing policy reflect that ) .

Now here is the situation

A person while searching for water in a desert founds a large aquifer and digs a well, the right to which are exclusively his and protects other people from digging in vicinity. Now would it be moral for community/government to waive his exclusive rights if he refuses to supply water from his well or prices it so high that practically no traveler could afford it.What are your views regarding this situation?

Patents which provide a monopoly have an inbuilt moral understanding that in life saving situations, the supplier should fulfill the demands at a reasonable price which are financially beneficial for him/her. Do you think that it is morally correct to refuse anyone to access to your patent ( pricing out practically everyone is a kind of refusal )?

Fine...Then have the courage to come out and say: The Indian government reserve the right to compel foreigners to share the fruits of their labor and deny profits within its jurisdiction.

But in this case, foreigner was not even trying to maximise it's profit but was making a sort of political statement so as not to undermine it's business model whose primary revenue stream lies in developed world.

 

[MarkusS]

This is a very outrageous remark for our demised hero... She was a mission specialist who lost her life while returning on earth in Atlantis incident... Markus you are a freak devil who do not have respect for great people who have laid their life for welfare of human civilization..

Dear Mods, sorry for personal attack, but could not bare the insult of our national hero...

Atlantis incident? Atlantis is stored in a museum in Los Angeles and doing quite fine. I think you got your facts wrong? As for your "national hero"... she is not my people and for me completly irrelevant. Beside that, she failed her mission. How can she be a hero? For being not sucessful? Our astronauts always made it back safe. For me, they are hero.

Beside that, this is not topic. You think you can steal from my people and then expect any sympathy?

 

[gambit]

@gambit

The particular drug was priced at a rate where probably not more than a million people out of 1.2 billion would have been able to afford it. India does not have a socialist medical insurance system in which government bears your health care expense. On top of it No Insurer in India provides open ended insurance, no one ( they used to do it till 2010 ) so in effect people have to pay for these from their pocket.In US, health cost are hyper inflated but that is not a problem since in Insurance driven model, people who buy insurance but do not use it cross-subsidize those who use it.

The particular business/pricing strategy that Bayer adopted in India was not even in their commercial interest in India. They adopted that model not to maximize their revenue from India ( which is a very small market for Bayer ) but for protection of it's business model in US and developed world.( Price difference in India and western market could lead to pressure for price reduction in their primary market ).

Bayer, no difference than any company in any industry, have to price its products in a way that would allow it to recoup their investments, which can range from 4 bils to 12 bils. If you cannot deny this reality, then you have no choice but to at least acknowledge that its pricing strategy is necessary, no matter how morally odious it may seems.

Now the situation for now is this that India has provided compulsory licence for production of Bayer's drug which is completely legal under both International and US law ( TRIPS; the provisions of which were agreed upon after bargaining in which US gained economically ) and Bayer would be paid royalty of 7 % and are free to sell original molecule at whatever rate they deem fit.Financially, it may bring much higher revenue to Bayer than their practical embargo would have brought them.They have not even accounted Indian market in their revenue expectations.( both this statement and their pricing policy reflect that ) .

I am not disputing the legality of it -- under Indian laws as allowed by treaties.

Seen the movie The Purge?

The Purge (2013) - IMDb

...the Purge, a 12-hour period in which any and all crime is legalized.

If YOU could get away with murder, meaning even though the law and its agents are aware of it but will do nothing, would you kill just for the pleasure of it?

It may sounds extreme but in principle, there is no difference. TRIPS may allow compulsory licensing, but there are alternatives for India, subsidy is one such option, for India to make Nexavar affordable to Indians.

Now here is the situation

A person while searching for water in a desert founds a large aquifer and digs a well, the right to which are exclusively his and protects other people from digging in vicinity. Now would it be moral for community/government to waive his exclusive rights if he refuses to supply water from his well or prices it so high that practically no traveler could afford it.What are your views regarding this situation?

Patents which provide a monopoly have an inbuilt moral understanding that in life saving situations, the supplier should fulfill the demands at a reasonable price which are financially beneficial for him/her. Do you think that it is morally correct to refuse anyone to access to your patent ( pricing out practically everyone is a kind of refusal )?

Morals do conflicts, especially when they are selfish in nature. Am I immoral for feeding my family before yours, when you and yours are starving, and we are both in a famine? But I will indulge your argument...How about the government give the man an area where he can sell his water for as high as he want while it allows others to dig outside that area?

Only a government have the legal and physical power to compel but compulsion should always be of last resort.

But in this case, foreigner was not even trying to maximise it's profit but was making a sort of political statement so as not to undermine it's business model whose primary revenue stream lies in developed world.

But the political statement is valid.