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Democracy is an ineffective system for Pakistan,the army has to act - Pervez Musharraf

Rubbish. The pakistani military rulers are ALWAYS in power so there is no confusion in India. Are you confused ?

There has always been a civilian-military tussle in Pakistan, sometimes the civilians have the upper hand, sometimes the military. And this is not just my view, but it also prevails in Pakistan.
 
There has always been a civilian-military tussle in Pakistan, sometimes the civilians have the upper hand, sometimes the military. And this is not just my view, but it also prevails in Pakistan.

Nonsense. The civilians NEVER had any upper hand in pakistan. :lol:

They exist only at the mercy of the pakistani army as a mask to hide their grip on pakistan.

But your naive views is the prevalent view in Pakistan sustained by the army propaganda. what is your excuse ?

India is actually helping us to identify the filth among us. Thank you for your unintended help.

No problem. Glad to help. I hope the help was intended, and not unintended.

I wish you all success in kicking out all politicians and bringing in a new army dictator the earliest. As I said, nothing would make me happier. :tup:
 
Nonsense. The civilians NEVER had any upper hand in pakistan. :lol:

They exist only at the mercy of the pakistani army as a mask to hide their grip on pakistan.

But your naive views is the prevalent view in Pakistan sustained by the army propaganda. what is your excuse ?

My views are not naive, but nuanced.
 
Democracy is without doubt the best but a ‘Republic’ is not the kind of Democracy which originated in Athens around 508 BC by Cleisthenes. In that every citizen (Demos) took part hence it was “Gov’t of the people, by the people, for the people”.

What we have today is the Republic. Here you elect a Representative to vote on your behalf. Problems occur when elected representatives lose touch with the masses. This is especially true in Pakistan where people vote based on ‘Bradery’, ethnicity, religion and the personality cult and not the issues.

Additionally, parties are run on dictatorial basis and the leadership has turned hereditary. PPP, ANP, JUI etc are prime examples. In fact in Pakistan only truly Democratic Party is Jamaat Islami. Congress party in India is no different. They couldn’t find a Nehru progeny, thus they elected an Italian woman as their leader just because she was widow of Rajeev Gandhi.

Besides, the so called democratic gov’ts carry out most undemocratic acts. For example all the newly elected parties after Musharraf scrapped local Councils and did not hold local body elections until pushed to the wall by the Supreme Court. Even after that the so called champions of democracy, the PPP, have not transferred power to the Karachi Council.

I do agree that democracy in Pakistan needs to be tweaked.

On second thought, the problem lies with the people themselves. May be most of my countrymen like to be dictated and therefore they elect autocratic leaders regardless of their dishonesty and lack of integrity.

Democracy is not perfect. Its slow. Honestly those who are expecting damn fast development through democracy will be disappointed. However its an ever evolving process. Chinks will be there which will be removed in futuristic course. Do u know central govt can dismiss state government arbitrarily even till 1990's in India. Now it cant. There is more awareness of Laws in India and people resort to Judiciary. It gets better. US took more than 150 years of democracy to see the development of where they are now. UK, lot longer than that.

People always compare how China and India took off from same level. China had communism where some basic rights like even having babies were banned. Institutions take time to strengthen themselves. In time our fertility rate will be around 1.5 through campaign. Reduction in corruption through e-governance. Change is taking place in India.
 
No problem. Glad to help. I hope the help was intended, and not unintended.

I wish you all success in kicking out all politicians and bringing in a new army dictator the earliest. As I said, nothing would make me happier. :tup:

I am not too sure if you heart and mind are in sync but I will gladly accept your wishes.
 
I am not too sure if you heart and mind are in sync but I will gladly accept your wishes.

Why are you worried about my heart and mind ? I am truly wishing you a military coup at the earliest and an army dictator as your head.

I think India should extend all support to the pakistan army and help make this possible.
 
Why are you worried about my heart and mind ? I am truly wishing you a military coup at the earliest and an army dictator as your head.

I think India should extend all support to the pakistan army and help make this possible.

I have already accepted your well wishes. Thank you.

I sincerely hope, your Modi and Doval combo got same feelings as well.
 
I have already accepted your well wishes. Thank you.

I sincerely hope, your Modi and Doval combo got same feelings as well.

I have no doubt they have something cooking and are waiting to be serve you piping hot. Something that will help your army dictator take control.

@Bitter Melon How about wishing them the best of luck for a new glorious army dictator ? :D
 
I have no doubt they have something cooking and are waiting to be serve you piping hot. Something that will help your army dictator take control.

@Bitter Melon How about wishing them the best of luck for a new glorious army dictator ? :D

Subh kaam mein deri kis bath ki. You know my warm wishes are always with Islamabad for a coup :D May they enjoy military dictatorship as long as Pakistan exists.
 
I have no doubt they have something cooking and are waiting to be serve you piping hot. Something that will help your army dictator take control.

@Bitter Melon How about wishing them the best of luck for a new glorious army dictator ? :D


With the "bulldozer" at the helm of Pakistan Army, you will find 200 million of us in complete agreement with you and your Modi's gang "grand scheme". Please bring it on without wasting much time.
 
Democrazy is indeed a flawed system and IMO absolutely anti-islamic. There are no confusion here if one talks about the original meaning of democrazy (which is rule of the people & sovereignty lies with the people AKA absolute kufr).Under a democrazy you actually have to give absolute individual freedom (liberalism) to the people and lawmakers would have the power to adopt and reject laws. This is absolutely kufr and anti-islamic. BUT lets NOT confuse democrazy with electocracy (people just electing leaders ). Democracy is NOT just elections but carries a lot of western secular ideological baggage and that's why even Pakistan , Turkey , Tunisia are rated as semi-autocratic by the western think tanks , because for them you are NOT truly democratic unless you accept liberal ideas about society , trade , governance and embrace individualism and ditch Islam. Infact they pointed it out to the MB after arab spring that - "don't think democracy is just elections and we accept something more" .Given the current international circumstances (nations states , no monarchy , diverse polity etc etc ) , electrocracy is however , something neutral and can be looked into by the muslim world IMO.

Now the problem starts - the model of elections. Pakistan follows the first pass the post system AKA tyranny of the majority system. Here some one with 20% votes takes the whole constituency based on plurality of votes and this results in parties having mere 30% votes ruling over rest 70% for 5 years. You PML-N actually won 32 % of the votes but ended up with 50% seats and before your PPP won 30% votes but ended up with majority seats. There is NO fair proportionality here and this gives rise to political instability in developing countries. PAK is not UK and should NOT be. Infact its only UK , and US and India that follow this flawed electoral system. Super popular 56 chest Modi has actually won 31% of the national votes while unpopular congress won 20% but look at the difference in their seats - BJP won 250 + more seats than congress.

Most western developed countries follow some form of proportional representation system where parties roughly get seats proportional to their votes :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

Tunisia , Turkey and Indonesia also follow this sytem. Nepal and SL just endorsed it as well.

NO comptemporary political parties enjoy 50% + support in reality except..............wait for it ............Turkey's AKP. This party is an anomaly in global electoral politics IMO and indeed is genuinely popular. NO western or eastern leader come close to erdogan's popularity. Erdogan has maintained 50% + support over 15 years via a proportional representation system. If Erdogan contested under UK/pakistani/Indian model he would have maintained a 3/4 majority in parliament for 15 years.

So pakistanis should think about this electoral reform to bring stability and accountability to their system. The best about this model is that it forces power sharing via coalitions since its very hard for a single party to gain absolute majority. It also reduces effects of possible rigging. I think your Imran khan would have less to comlpain about in such a system and can even get a shot at PM seat with help of smaller parties while your nawaz sharif won't get away with unchecked majority everytime . Also it may enhance legitimacy of civilian gov and army would have less chance or inclination to intervene.

P.S - another amusing fact : Awami league at the zenith of its popularity won 39% of votes in 1970 election but ended up with 160 of the 162 seats. Imagine that 60% did NOT vote the AL.. Official turnout was 62%. This 39% (all in E.Pakistan) actually dictated politics of 1971.

@litman @Apprentice @war&peace @dsr478 @Psychic @That Guy @Horus

Btw personally I am absolutely against the concept of democracy which is absolute kufr for the reasons I mentioned above. But I distinguish between democracy and electocracy.
Democrazy is indeed a flawed system and IMO absolutely anti-islamic. There are no confusion here if one talks about the original meaning of democrazy (which is rule of the people & sovereignty lies with the people AKA absolute kufr).Under a democrazy you actually have to give absolute individual freedom (liberalism) to the people and lawmakers would have the power to adopt and reject laws. This is absolutely kufr and anti-islamic. BUT lets NOT confuse democrazy with electocracy (people just electing leaders ). Democracy is NOT just elections but carries a lot of western secular ideological baggage and that's why even Pakistan , Turkey , Tunisia are rated as semi-autocratic by the western think tanks , because for them you are NOT truly democratic unless you accept liberal ideas about society , trade , governance and embrace individualism and ditch Islam. Infact they pointed it out to the MB after arab spring that - "don't think democracy
democracy has many flaws. the biggest one is one man one vote. iqbal pointed it out by saying that in democracy votes are counted not weighed. in last elections in pak gen kiyani casted one vote and gullu butt also casted one vote. what non sense.
 
Democrazy is indeed a flawed system and IMO absolutely anti-islamic. There are no confusion here if one talks about the original meaning of democrazy (which is rule of the people & sovereignty lies with the people AKA absolute kufr).Under a democrazy you actually have to give absolute individual freedom (liberalism) to the people and lawmakers would have the power to adopt and reject laws. This is absolutely kufr and anti-islamic. BUT lets NOT confuse democrazy with electocracy (people just electing leaders ). Democracy is NOT just elections but carries a lot of western secular ideological baggage and that's why even Pakistan , Turkey , Tunisia are rated as semi-autocratic by the western think tanks , because for them you are NOT truly democratic unless you accept liberal ideas about society , trade , governance and embrace individualism and ditch Islam. Infact they pointed it out to the MB after arab spring that - "don't think democracy is just elections and we accept something more" .Given the current international circumstances (nations states , no monarchy , diverse polity etc etc ) , electrocracy is however , something neutral and can be looked into by the muslim world IMO.

Now the problem starts - the model of elections. Pakistan follows the first pass the post system AKA tyranny of the majority system. Here some one with 20% votes takes the whole constituency based on plurality of votes and this results in parties having mere 30% votes ruling over rest 70% for 5 years. You PML-N actually won 32 % of the votes but ended up with 50% seats and before your PPP won 30% votes but ended up with majority seats. There is NO fair proportionality here and this gives rise to political instability in developing countries. PAK is not UK and should NOT be. Infact its only UK , and US and India that follow this flawed electoral system. Super popular 56 chest Modi has actually won 31% of the national votes while unpopular congress won 20% but look at the difference in their seats - BJP won 250 + more seats than congress.

Most western developed countries follow some form of proportional representation system where parties roughly get seats proportional to their votes :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation

Tunisia , Turkey and Indonesia also follow this sytem. Nepal and SL just endorsed it as well.

NO comptemporary political parties enjoy 50% + support in reality except..............wait for it ............Turkey's AKP. This party is an anomaly in global electoral politics IMO and indeed is genuinely popular. NO western or eastern leader come close to erdogan's popularity. Erdogan has maintained 50% + support over 15 years via a proportional representation system. If Erdogan contested under UK/pakistani/Indian model he would have maintained a 3/4 majority in parliament for 15 years.

So pakistanis should think about this electoral reform to bring stability and accountability to their system. The best about this model is that it forces power sharing via coalitions since its very hard for a single party to gain absolute majority. It also reduces effects of possible rigging. I think your Imran khan would have less to comlpain about in such a system and can even get a shot at PM seat with help of smaller parties while your nawaz sharif won't get away with unchecked majority everytime . Also it may enhance legitimacy of civilian gov and army would have less chance or inclination to intervene.

P.S - another amusing fact : Awami league at the zenith of its popularity won 39% of votes in 1970 election but ended up with 160 of the 162 seats. Imagine that 60% did NOT vote the AL.. Official turnout was 62%. This 39% (all in E.Pakistan) actually dictated politics of 1971.

@litman @Apprentice @war&peace @dsr478 @Psychic @That Guy @Horus

Btw personally I am absolutely against the concept of democracy which is absolute kufr for the reasons I mentioned above. But I distinguish between democracy and electocracy.

I agree. Below is the Islamic perspective.

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/17053
 
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