Dedicated to General Hameed Gul: Man of Honor

[Shamain]

As for Chawinda, some 2000 other tank operators also took part. Doesnt make up for messing up Afghanistan and our society.

So leadership skills dont matter? As someone wrote here , he fought as a tank commander. So when he leads an armoured division or a tank battle then he doesnt get credit for being a good commando and a leader. Then u remember there were many others fighting alongside. But uguys are the same who argue over the need of a good leader in all other aspects of life.

And whilst u refuse to credit him solely for a battle where enemy animals' invasion was successfully halted, u are more than happy to solely hold him responsible for propping up of mqm, soviet war etc etc?

Btw why in the recent history of afghanistan only period from 96 to 2001 was the peaceful most time. And that was the period when taliban gov had ruled afghanistan.

Btw i very well remember him saying that bhutto's hanging was unfair.

 

[Serpentine]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Sometimes, 'patriotism' results in death and suffering of tens of thousands of people. Many Pakistanis here think what he did was for the interests of Pakistan (and he certainly had that in mind while interfering in Afghanistan), hence considering him a hero or a patriot. But it's apparent that Pakistan's post-soviet policies in Afghanistan and aligning itself with Saudis and other Arab states, backfired in Pakistan's face and resulted in suffering of Pakistani civilians too, and this guy has had a main role in that decision making, so he is responsible for some of the consequences.

ISI support for Taliban, in which General Gul apparently had a prominent rule, resulted in death of thousands of people.

Pakistani officials including Gul, must have been thinking they are doing it for the interests of Pakistan, but apparently, it backfired and they screwed up. That's what happens when one uses a mercenary army to capture a neighboring country.

There are reports that, between 20-30% of Taliban forces were Pakistani nationals, with very heavy support by ISI and Saudi Arabia. Now that we look at it, it was Pakistan that payed the price and not Saudis, since they used Pakistan and Afghanistan as a means to spread their own virus of an ideology.

Back fired.. yes, but only after Afghanistan was handed over to Iran stooges by US.
He is popular in all world... for consolidating post Russia vacuum in Afghanistan and keeping Pakistan protected.

Pakistan isn't exactly 'protected' now. And protected from who? Who wanted to threaten Pakistan after Soviets? Who could kill more Pakistanis than groups like TTP or LeJ have already killed?

You are defending a lost war. Pakistan certainly wasn't among the 'winners' by supporting Taliban. U.S basically ruined all those plans. Saudis were winners, since they sacrificed Pakistani and Afghan lives to promote their ideology, without having to suffer from instabilities and death squads they were sending in there. But that winning was temporary, until 2001.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

That's for the pics bro and you can find online many more including bin Laden's with his CIA handlers in 80's.

We live in a world where interests keep changing and so the national level statements and ambitions point here is though I personally don't agree with Pakistan response of adopting US line post 79 attack on Kabul( As I strongly feel if we could have sat with Russians and asked them to build the gwadar port as the rumor was "they wanted a warm water port and after Aghanistan it was Pakistan's balochistan turn which led to our support for Afghan freedom fighters" ..if they can build steel mill why not a port in my opinion our gwadar would have been functional decades ago something we are trying to achieve even today) so siding with US was Zia's mistake or our national policy makers.

Hamid gul shaheed was just a soldier who made all efforts to implement whatever his country decided was in her best interest . The second biggest mistake was not to dismantle the jihadi infrastructure after 89 which again couldn't have been his decision alone( btw he was retired in 89 and had no office to exercise any power) as such things are not decided by persons its called national policy made by all heavy weights in civil and mil admin.

So blaming hamid gul for fueling or creating extremism is wrong in my opinion as he did what he thought was in best interest of his country and as per Islam " Amal ka daromadar niyato per hai" (Your deeds arejudged against your intentions)and his aim always was to defend his country like a true soldier and fight for Kashmir by all means.

People here highlighted him with Hafiz saeed well saeed is not proven guilty in anything yet but yes his stance that Kashmir can not be freed from tyrants with out blood and sacrifice is true like sky is blue . Hamid gul (may Allah grants him peace ) believed in that and so do I and millions of other Pakistani's.

I repeat I don't see any thing wrong with late generals intentions and therefore find it absurd to comment on his actions which cam be translated into anything by typing abc on your keypad sitting at peace in your home. Making decisions when a real war is going on and the world's 2nd largest military knocking on your doors is something different.

So everybody shut this crap against our general . He was and will always remain a respected son of this land.

We all have rights to discuss some one's action as we see with our eyes but we cant see anybody's intentions buried deep in his heart only Allah knows that so let Allah decide . We are no one to pass judgements . @Oscar

why would we work with USSR (now Russia) when they were primary arms and diplomatic supporters of our enemy - india?

at that particular time in history and in that historical context it wouldnt have made an iota of sense...they were also backing communist/leftist groups in Pakistan such as Al-Zulfiqar

 

[Desert Fox]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".

Hmm, so that means that George Washington and all of the founding fathers of America (the country you're residing in) were all scoundrels right. Where does that put Jinnah by the way?

why would we work with USSR (now Russia) when they were primary arms and diplomatic supporters of our enemy - india?

We could have worked things out with them TBH. They needed our assistance, and most of all they were direly in need of access to Persian Gulf. We had more to offer them than india ever did and has. It was one of the biggest mistakes our leaders made.

What did he do exactly? Training Afghan mujahidin? Didn't that policy backfire at the end for Pakistan?

Someone please explain why he is popular and what he has done for Pakistan that has made it a "better" country.

If i recall correctly Iran wasn't exactly pro-Soviet/Communist either during the Afghan Soviet war. Iran backed Mujahideen factions too.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Sometimes, 'patriotism' results in death and suffering of tens of thousands of people. Many Pakistanis here think what he did was for the interests of Pakistan (and he certainly had that in mind while interfering in Afghanistan), hence considering him a hero or a patriot. But it's apparent that Pakistan's post-soviet policies in Afghanistan and aligning itself with Saudis and other Arab states, backfired in Pakistan's face and resulted in suffering of Pakistani civilians too, and this guy has had a main role in that decision making, so he is responsible for some of the consequences.

ISI support for Taliban, in which General Gul apparently had a prominent rule, resulted in death of thousands of people.

Pakistani officials including Gul, must have been thinking they are doing it for the interests of Pakistan, but apparently, it backfired and they screwed up. That's what happens when one uses a mercenary army to capture a neighboring country.

There are reports that, between 20-30% of Taliban forces were Pakistani nationals, with very heavy support by ISI and Saudi Arabia. Now that we look at it, it was Pakistan that payed the price and not Saudis, since they used Pakistan and Afghanistan as a means to spread their own virus of an ideology.



Pakistan isn't exactly 'protected' now. And protected from who? Who wanted to threaten Pakistan after Soviets? Who could kill more Pakistanis than groups like TTP or LeJ have already killed?

You are defending a lost war. Pakistan certainly wasn't among the 'winners' by supporting Taliban. U.S basically ruined all those plans. Saudis were winners, since they sacrificed Pakistani and Afghan lives to promote their ideology, without having to suffer from instabilities and death squads they were sending in there. But that winning was temporary, until 2001.

the civil war in Afghanistan had several factions, when it became clear the talebs would have the upper hand we reached out to them for contact.....it's not like we had them in their pockets. They are a purely Afghan phenomeon our only "crime" is supporting them against the soviets and diplomatically recognizing them

Gul was a nationalist and while some disagree with some of his ideological visions - many should recognize him for his service....he's also a decorated war hero. Very few people have the distinction of rising up the ranks progressing from 19 Lancers to Mil. Intelligence role, Being a GOC of our prestigious 1st Armored Division AND being a DG ISI. He served this country VERY well in my opinion and he always had Pakistan's interests at heart. Actions and accomplishments always speak louder than our words here.

We could have worked things out with them TBH. They needed our assistance, and most of all they were direly in need of access to Persian Gulf. We had more to offer them than india ever did and has. It was one of the biggest mistakes our leaders made..

The Soviet Union was already bound for collapse anyways - providing them access to Gwadar wouldnt have helped them much - but it certainly would have antagonized the Americans whom we really did rely on (despite them being unreliable)

 

[Menace2Society]

We could have worked things out with them TBH. They needed our assistance, and most of all they were direly in need of access to Persian Gulf. We had more to offer them than india ever did and has. It was one of the biggest mistakes our leaders made.

How can you be so sure?

India had a long standing relationship with Soviets and US had backed Pakistan and helped to build up its military.

Soviets would establish next door and tighten noose around Pakistan with Iran and India. Completely cornered. India would surely take full advantage.

This would have been a Shakespearean tragedy had Pakistan not joined the cold war.

Its best case scenario right now. Afghan war blowback through TTP is like a walk in the park compared to pure Soviet Communist invasion from multiple fronts.

 

[Desert Fox]

But Pakistan, although doing the right think by supporting the Mujahidin, but it insisted too much on arming fundamentalists that later started targeting Pakistan itself. That's why I say Pakistan's policy in Afghanistan, especially after Soviet withdrawal did not make Pakistan a better place.

The blame really falls on the laps of Pakistani Liberals (so called) who actually fed and bred the fundamentalists as a sort of leverage against india in Kashmir. Pakistan's Liberal's were (and still are) hand in glove with the fundamentalists. Men like Musharraf (a Liberal/Secularist), Benazir, etc... all abetted the Mullahs. Musharraf used the Mullahs during the Kargil conflict, Benazir and co. supported the Taliban's take over of Afghanistan.

Pakistani Liberals today cry about the evil Mullahs tearing apart Pakistan when in fact they are the first ones to lend a saving hand to the Mullahs when they begin to lose their grip over Pakistani society.

Mullah Omar, most wanted Taliban Leader recently passed away in Karachi, Osama was found in Pakistani Garrison city, and Hafiz Saeed is giving public speeches in Punjab. Where are these so called "Liberals"? They are all talk, that's what they are. They and the Mullahs feed off of each other.

How can you be so sure?

India had a long standing relationship with Soviets and US had backed Pakistan and helped to build up its military.

Soviets would establish next door and tighten noose around Pakistan with Iran and India. Completely cornered. India would surely take full advantage.

This would have been a Shakespearean tragedy had Pakistan not joined the cold war.

Its best case scenario right now. Afghan war blowback through TTP is like a walk in the park compared to pure Soviet Communist invasion from multiple fronts.

They built our steel mill not too long before they invaded Afghanistan. Pakistan Steel Mills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Americans back stabbed us by slapping sanctions on us, leaving our F-16's useless in Kargil war where we needed them most.

We antagonized the Soviets by providing Americans bases to spy on Soviet territory since the 50's. So can you blame the Soviets for having nefarious designs against us?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

How can you be so sure?

India had a long standing relationship with Soviets and US had backed Pakistan and helped to build up its military.

Soviets would establish next door and tighten noose around Pakistan with Iran and India. Completely cornered. India would surely take full advantage.

This would have been a Shakespearean tragedy had Pakistan not joined the cold war.

Its best case scenario right now. Afghan war blowback through TTP is like a walk in the park compared to pure Soviet Communist invasion from multiple fronts.

Pakistan saw itself as "encircled" by indian sphere of influence which was an existential threat....I dont think it was irrational to go against the soviets....it's bad enough they created a humanitarian DISASTER which affected Pakistan.

ironically it's the NATO that now destroyed Afghanistan and yet you have northern alliance and other rag tag rabble rousers blaming Pakistan for all the problems there!

 

[Desert Fox]

Pakistan saw itself as "encircled" by indian sphere of influence which was an existential threat....I dont think it was irrational to go against the soviets....it's bad enough they created a humanitarian DISASTER which affected Pakistan.

ironically it's the NATO that now destroyed Afghanistan and yet you have northern alliance and other rag tag rabble rousers blaming Pakistan for all the problems there!

We provided Americans bases to spy on the Soviets since the 50's and the 60's. Our leaders made stupid mistakes by antagonizing a powerful country that was within our vicinity for the sake of another powerful country that was thousands of miles away, safely tucked between two of the largest bodies of water.

If our leaders had extended hand of friendship to the Soviets today Pakistan would have been a truly developed nation like China:

"In pursuance of this decision, the Pakistan Steel Mills Corporation Limited (PSM Ltd.) was given commissioned and incorporated as a private limited company in a public sector in the accordance of Companies Act of 1913, to be established in Karachi, Sindh Province of Pakistan.[5] Contacts were made to United States but the U.S. government showed lack of ambitions and interest in the project; therefore the studies were sent to Soviet Union who took the initiatives.[13] The United States forcefully refused to provide or give any kind of assistance, as the creation of any such kind of basic industry in an underdeveloped country was considered a threat to their own exploitative imperialist agendas.[13]

Finally, an agreement was reached with the V/O Tyaz Promexport of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) in January 1969.[5] In 1971, Pakistan and Soviet Union finally proceeded to enter in a government agreement, upon which, the Soviet Union agreed to provide techno-financial assistance for the construction of a coastal based integrated steel mill at Karachi.[5]"

Pakistan Steel Mills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

We provided Americans bases to spy on the Soviets since the 50's and the 60's. Our leaders made stupid mistakes by antagonizing a powerful country that was within our vicinity for the sake of another powerful country that was thousands of miles away, safely tucked between two of the largest bodies of water.

If our leaders had extended hand of friendship to the Soviets today Pakistan would have been a truly developed nation like China:

"In pursuance of this decision, the Pakistan Steel Mills Corporation Limited (PSM Ltd.) was given commissioned and incorporated as a private limited company in a public sector in the accordance of Companies Act of 1913, to be established in Karachi, Sindh Province of Pakistan.[5] Contacts were made to United States but the U.S. government showed lack of ambitions and interest in the project; therefore the studies were sent to Soviet Union who took the initiatives.[13] The United States forcefully refused to provide or give any kind of assistance, as the creation of any such kind of basic industry in an underdeveloped country was considered a threat to their own exploitative imperialist agendas.[13]

Finally, an agreement was reached with the V/O Tyaz Promexport of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) in January 1969.[5] In 1971, Pakistan and Soviet Union finally proceeded to enter in a government agreement, upon which, the Soviet Union agreed to provide techno-financial assistance for the construction of a coastal based integrated steel mill at Karachi.[5]"

Pakistan Steel Mills - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

well brother, we certainly 'took sides' and put eggs in one 'basket'

A more balanced approach would have been good but then again - there was pressure on Pakistan internally and externally (but especially internally) to take action

we were in a tough place

about the steel mills thing - doesnt surprise me at all.....USA is a selfish country, thats just how they've always been. Their interests trump the interests of every other country and every other planet

 

[Menace2Society]

We antagonized the Soviets by providing Americans bases to spy on Soviet territory since the 50's. So can you blame the Soviets for having nefarious designs against us?

Yes in exchange for arms which were used to defend the country in 65 war. ISI was set up with the help of the Americans. They did a lot for Pakistan in the 50s. It was a new country with not a lot, would have been eaten up alive if Pakistan had refused an alliance with US.

How do you think PA would have performed with Soviet tech? Our air superiority gave us the edge.

Had India not been a neighbor of Pakistan than they would have made peace with everyone in the world but sadly sides need to be taken for the greater good.

 

[Serpentine]

the civil war in Afghanistan had several factions, when it became clear the talebs would have the upper hand we reached out to them for contact.....it's not like we had them in their pockets. They are a purely Afghan phenomeon our only "crime" is supporting them against the soviets and diplomatically recognizing them

Gul was a nationalist and while some disagree with some of his ideological visions - many should recognize him for his service....he's also a decorated war hero. Very few people have the distinction of rising up the ranks progressing from 19 Lancers to Mil. Intelligence role, Being a GOC of our prestigious 1st Armored Division AND being a DG ISI. He served this country VERY well in my opinion and he always had Pakistan's interests at heart. Actions and accomplishments always speak louder than our words here.

Taliban had nothing to do with Soviets! I am talking about Pakistan's support for them in post 1994, when Soviet Union had collapsed 3 years earlier.
Although Taliban was an Afghan phenomenon, they would never have succeeded with out Pakistan support and Saudi funding. Also, thousands of Pakistanis were also involved in the war and fighting on the side of Taliban.

If i recall correctly Iran wasn't exactly pro-Soviet/Communist either during the Afghan Soviet war. Iran backed Mujahideen factions too.

Of course Iran backed the Mujaheddin, but after Soviet withdrawal, Pakistan continued to heavily get involved in Afghanistan. Although Iran also had a role and interfered occasionally, it never comes even close to that of Pakistan after 1992.

 

[Desert Fox]

well brother, we certainly 'took sides' and put eggs in one 'basket'

A more balanced approach would have been good but then again - there was pressure on Pakistan internally and externally (but especially internally) to take action

we were in a tough place

Unfortunately, here, the blame goes on our leadership. They could have played their cards well. Perhaps it was to do with the British legacy that Pakistan's early leaders, who were educated and influenced by Britishers, sided with the successor to the British Empire, America, and the West as a whole, against the Eastern Bloc.

about the steel mills thing - doesnt surprise me at all.....USA is a selfish country, thats just how they've always been. Their interests trump the interests of every other country and every other planet

Even as late as the 1970's the Soviets were willing to cooperate with us, helping us to develop steel industry which is one of the most vital forms of industrialization for a nation's self sufficiency in the field of defence and construction. The Soviets certainly would have given us more assistance had we allowed them access to the Persian Gulf. Imagine, today, we would have been like China by now, a industrialized economic powerhouse. Our nation wouldn't be taking diktats from Arabs or Americans and their bribe money.

Yes in exchange for arms which were used to defend the country in 65 war. ISI was set up with the help of the Americans. They did a lot for Pakistan in the 50s. It was a new country with not a lot, would have been eaten up alive if Pakistan had refused an alliance with US.

How do you think PA would have performed with Soviet tech? Our air superiority gave us the edge.

Had India not been a neighbor of Pakistan than they would have made peace with everyone in the world but sadly sides need to be taken for the greater good.

Yes, the same weapons that ran out of fuel and ammunition when America, as usual, slapped arms embargoes on Pakistan for using the weapons they gave us to fight Soviet threat but ended up being used against india. And this would be repeated again in 1971 and then in 1999 Kargil. While Soviet's sent assistance to india in forms of weapons and supplies to fight Pakistan, good o'l uncle sam cut off our munitions supplies for defending our territorial integrity.

BTW, about our troops using Soviet weapons, they performed very well against the Israelis in Mig's during the Arab israeli wars. Also, when the Americans didn't provide spare parts for our American weapons, the Chinese provided us with Soviet copy Mig fighters and tanks. So it made no difference. Our pilots and soldiers did just as well with Soviet designed weapons as they did with American ones.

 

[Albatross]

Sure, if someone was my mentor and also taught me to use terrorism and death of innocents as a tool for my means.. I will miss him and support him. Since you too believe in killing women and children, beating them in public and everything else the Taliban and all of Mr Guls "Children" believe in..so your support is natural too.

A picture is better than a thousand words. He was no woman basher like you are implying the fact is despite being an EX ISI Chief and a decorated three star Gen he actively kept himself engaged in the causes he believed in and on top of that list was the Kashmir . And he performed well at various fronts and was a respected name in international military analysis circles.

You can't just blame him for all the ills of Taliban that was the natural outcome of the mess in Kabul after 89.

The only place where I feel he should have done better was while he was retiring in 89 he should have made a well laid down procedure on how to dismantle the Mujaihidin network in Pakistan but IMO opinion after success in Kabul Pakistani establishment wanted to use the same launching grounds for attacks in Kashmir but you cant blame gul for that as I said earlier that must have been a collective decision and if this danger coupled with millions of Afghanis was not even assessed at that time then for that neglect every body is responsible including top civil and military brass. They should have thought india will use the same ideology against us something she did successfully later.

But I don't see in all this how you can blame General for everything and even any atrocities committed against women across the border. I have seen him very respectful to women in real life so I guess its little time for you to do some deeper research and some soul searching as well.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Taliban had nothing to do with Soviets! I am talking about Pakistan's support for them in post 1994, when Soviet Union had collapsed 3 years earlier.
Although Taliban was an Afghan phenomenon, they would never have succeeded with out Pakistan support and Saudi funding.

rubbish

Of course Iran backed the Mujaheddin, but after Soviet withdrawal, Pakistan continued to heavily get involved in Afghanistan. Although Iran also had a role and interfered occasionally, it never comes even close to that of Pakistan after 1992.

uhhh yeah - so did Iran.....you supported other factions - making you very much involved

where did you find this yaara