Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sunakaffck]

oh god,you got to be kidding me.

 

[sancho]

Let's see
-This NG-DDM having 2 IR imaging sensor are part of MAWS ???? right
-Program of DDM-NG started in 2007 and has gone just one set of trials.?? This will become certified for operation only in 2012 not before , ??
-It lacks DIRCM and there are no plans in France as yet to fit Rafale with ability to cue a directed infrared countermeasures system, giving electronic warfare subsystem . . correct ??

France has ordered 60 Rafale F3 for induction in 2012 including AESA and DDM NG, that's why obviously that has to be the first date when DDM NG will be operational and not before. As the sources said:

Among the key features the new sensor is to provide...the ability to cue a directed infrared countermeasures system

High angular accuracy compliant with DIRCM needs

So I don't it doesn't lack the feature, if at all, France won't buy!

Now when you say NG-DDM(Part of MAWS) giving you IR imaging while Eurofighter lacking it

You should have also checked about PIMAWS on Eurofighter

I posted the same part before to show you that this tech will only be available in future upgrades and the part that you missed to quote even says it:

Two possible upgrades to the MAW system have been discussed as part of on-going DASS improvements for inclusion on either Tranche-2 or more likely Tranche-3. The first of these is a UV based system. These were discounted for the initial install of DASS because GEC-Marconi thought the technology immature at the time. A UV system detects the characteristic emmisions from the missile plume. The advantage is it can be highly discriminating against counter measures. However since it is reliant on detecting the plume of the missiles engine its primarily useful only during the burn phase.
The second and more likely potential replacement, announced by Germany's Bodenseewerk Geratechnik (BGT) in June 2001, is termed PIMAWS, or Passive Infra-red Missile Approach Warning System...

So I was right that the EF lacks this capability yet, it was never integrated, because of cost issues. EJ 200 TVC was developed even a decade ago and is also not integrated and possibly will not, because of cost issues again (probably only if India pays for it through MMRCA, or engine for LCA).
Even for T3 it is doubtful, because AESA, Meteor and possibly any A2G missiles are more important, while DDM NG as stated above, is funded and ordered for the new F3 Rafales, which makes it available for us too.

For last time
I think discussion started with claims that Eurofighter dosen't have 360 Passive detection and only Rafale has one such thing

And as I said all the time, similar to EO DAS in terms of enhanced SA, weapons cueing...and the EF doesn't have similar capabilities yet!
What it has, if all additional features will be ordered, is 360° detection of threats to engage them with countermesures, but not to be used in passive, offensive ways as Spectra and EO DAS can.

Dassault claim that Rafale have 360 SA bcoz of comprehensive Sensor fusion between FSO - I posted a pic about sensor fusion back.

No, they claim 360° SA because they have several sensors that provides this coverage fully integrated in Spectra alone and can gather it in passive modes:

- 3 digital RWR antennas with each 120° azimuth coverage
- Active ECM system with DRFM and AESA antennas in the canard rootsand in the tail pod at the base of the fin , with offensive, defensive and stealthy jamming modes. Pencil thin jamming beams are directed towards threat emitters
- DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) missile approach warning system based on dual-band midwave IR sensors which are located on each side of the SPECTRA fin tip pod, providing 360° atimuth coverage
- 3 DAL (Detecteur d’Alerte Laser) laser warning receivers with sensors on the fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod

So 4 different sensor types in Spetra alone provides full 360° coverage, RBE 2 radar, FSO, or the MICA IR seekers will add the SA only that is already provided by Spectra.

If this is scenario then...

These are statements are of the AASM programme responsable at Sagem, not mine so I can't tell you how exactly the will do it, I just showed you how they will do SEAD missions without ARMs. The fact is, they seems to think this is, that the combination of passive detection and targeting with Spectra + destroying of the targets with PGMs is more effecient than firing missiles only, because even if upgraded HARMs can use GPS guidance, or are better against countermesures, they will be fired preemptive, if the radar is turned off and not located yet, which means the use of serveral missiles will be needed to take out one target. And with the detection range of radars in over 200Km range, Spectra will give Rafale pretty much time to engange them.

In comparison HARM has range in excess of 100Kms , plus Kh-58UsHE on Su30 has range in excess of 200Kms
I guess ARMs are the ones having better chances to survive

As I said all the time it's a different strategy! If you have a big fighter like the MKI which will be detected in distances, of course long range ARMs are the better choice for survivebility. But Rafale offers the exact opposite, it is hard to detect, offers excellent detection, idenfication and jamming features, so can get closer to the target and strike it more effective with PGMs. So it depends on the capabilities of the fighter, or weapons which strategy is better and Rafale has proved itself in this role. Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM was tested with ranges up to 100Km too, so strikes from distances are possible too and be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same?
Btw, neither Gripen NG, nor the EF has integrated an ARM yet!

For AASM , guidance is purely on GPS/Inertial...
...While CEP of HARM without GPS is 3-4 meters even if radar shuts down with help of ARH+DAMASK seeker+mWW seeker . Add GPS to it and even better CEP .

Wrong, AASM has also an IR seeker with a CEP of 1m and is in the development of an laser seeker at the moment too.

Who will keep designating the threat for targeting .
HARM gives you Launch and Leave option
IMO HARM dosen't have these disadvantages or does it .

As stated before, Spectra will guide AASM.

What a competing company is offering to India , is way different to what is in active production.

It don't has to be in production now, it has to be ready and mature by the time when the first MMRCA squads should be delivered and the only fighters that can offer this by now are the US fighters and Rafale! That shows the difference each fighter has, or will have, so they obviously can't be on par. EF starts the real development of T3A only by this year and it is more than doubtful that anything will be ready, or even mature by 2014 when we need the first squad, so although those techs might be good around 2015/16, can we risk such delays in an replacement that is already delayed? You can't compare that to MKI, or Mig 29K, because that are different cases, especially the Mig 29K where no alternatives was available and it was a combined deal anyway.
The fact is our squad numbers are shrinkin, so fast integration and induction of the fighters should be an important requirement, which clearly speaks not in favour of EF, nor Mig 35 and even puts some ??? behind Gripen NG.
As I told you before, any fighter has pros and cons and I hope the one with the most pros wins and not the one with political benefits only.

 

[sancho]

@ LT. Prateek

This is an excerpt of an report about the S. Korean competition that I found, which should be interesting too:

"Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.

The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.

In the categories of weapons and electronic warfare capability, only Rafale earned the "excellent" grade, according to the officials.

Russia's Su-35 took fourth place with "ordinary" rates in all five categories.

Not about Spectra but gnerally, from the competition in the Netherlands:

As you can see, technically the Rafale can take on the top US fighters, especially with it's weapons and the Spectra EWS. On the radar, or IRST site, I would rate EFs Captor and Pirate higher, but with upgraded MKI we will even have better than that, so again, we need capabilities that we don't have to supplement the fleet!

 

[dbc]

"Dassault's combat aircraft Rafale was rated as "excellent" in all five categories, while its strongest rival, Boeing's F-15 fighter, reached the standard in only two categories.

The Boeing fighter received "excellent" in reliability and supportive combat capability, while Eurofighter, produced by a European consortium, won the top grades in the general function and reliability categories.

Are you able to provide a source for the above? Why are you cherry picking from blogs and other unreliable sources? Who won the Korean competition?Here I fully expect you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments to justify Rafale's loss.

Not about Spectra but gnerally, from the competition in the Netherlands:

A surprising and important detail had been made public: the technological and operational evaluation by the RNAF of the three candidates. According to the RNAF criteria, the JSF had been graded 6.97; the Rafale, 6.95; and the Eurofighter Typhoon, 5.85

As for the Dutch evaluation - can you please elaborate? Tell the readers how the assessment was conducted by the Dutch? Did the Dutch request Dassault or EAD participation? Were planes made available to the Dutch, was confidential performance data provided by the vendor for the assessment? As a matter of fact the Dutch evaluation was carried out without Vendor participation.
I am pretty sure you knew this but decided to deliberately deceive in order to bolster your case for the Rafale.

 

[sancho]

Are you able to provide a source for the above? Why are you cherry picking from blogs and other unreliable sources? Who won the Korean competition?Here I fully expect you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments to justify Rafale's loss.

As for the Dutch evaluation - can you please elaborate? Tell the readers how the assessment was conducted by the Dutch? Did the Dutch request Dassault or EAD participation? Were planes made available to the Dutch, was confidential performance data provided by the vendor for the assessment? As a matter of fact the Dutch evaluation was carried out without Vendor participation.
I am pretty sure you knew this but decided to deliberately deceive in order to bolster your case for the Rafale.

I am trying to get infos about older competitions and am going through several threads in different forums, most of the older links doesn't work anymore, but here someone posted several reports at once (quiet interesting!):

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX

Btw, I think we don't have to discuss about that such competitions won't be decided by the best fighter right? It's often about political advantages and that's the reason why the F15s won in S. Korea, or Singapore. Which possibly is the main reason why Rafale will win in Brazil and why the F18SH has good chances to win the MMRCA.

 

[KEETARP]

So I don't it doesn't lack the feature, if at all, France won't buy!

Yes , it does lack .
There is no plan to integrate DIRCM on F3 for AdA .
Eurofighter and F18 have this thing already .
If at all Thales makes it available to India so is the case with PIMAWS ( if anything Euro partners won't buy PIMAWS , Germany + India can )
By the way do you know how good UV sensing is , in comparison to IR imaging ??

And as I said all the time, similar to EO DAS in terms of enhanced SA, weapons cueing...and the EF doesn't have similar capabilities yet!
What it has, if all additional features will be ordered, is 360° detection of threats to engage them with countermesures, but not to be used in passive, offensive ways as Spectra and EO DAS can.

You again claim no passive detection .
Why "no passive detection" care to explain .

To add , Its wrong to say Eurofighter can't cue weapons with its passive sensors , have you seen ASRAAM firing with only use of PIRATE .
The infrarotgestützte target search and target tracking allows the "Typhoon", air targets, passive (ie without its own radiation to detect) to monitor, record and identify at least the use of infrared-air-air missiles, making it possible.
The above line is in German ,not well translated but you can make out use of infrared missile .
If you want Austrian Gov website link for above claim . I will happily post it .

No, they claim 360° SA because they have several sensors that provides this coverage fully integrated in Spectra alone and can gather it in passive modes:

- 3 digital RWR antennas with each 120° azimuth coverage

So does Eurofighter , F18 , F15 , F35 , Mig 35 , etc .............
Radar Warning Receiver (RWR)
The DASS is equipped with Radar Warning Receivers (RWRs) designed to detect such emissions. The particular units used are Super Heterodyne (SuperHet) based wide-band receivers and are located in the port side pod (both front and rear) and within the aircraft's fuselage giving full 360° coverage in azimuth (elevation coverage is currently unknown).

These units are combined with on-board processing systems enabling not only a bearing to be determined but also the likely type of radar (and thus the platform it is deployed on). This is achieved using a stored database of radar signatures forming part of the ESM, Electronic Support Measures suite. Through the use of high speed digital signal processing the ESM will attempt to map the detected emission to its database. One of the weaknesses of current (and more so older) RWR systems is a difficulty in countering Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) enabled emissions. These use various techniques to try and hide the emitted signal. Although it is unclear whether the DASS RWRs possess a capability to detect and classify such emissions it is known the Marconi (now BAE Systems) have been working hard in this area for some time.

And we think only SPECTRA have Active cancellation stealthy rumor against LPI.

Just for curiosity , do you know difference between Super-Heterodyne based system and digital logarithmic transfer(Digital crystal video receiver) of RWR ,

- Active ECM system with DRFM and AESA antennas in the canard rootsand in the tail pod at the base of the fin , with offensive, defensive and stealthy jamming modes. Pencil thin jamming beams are directed towards threat emitters

So does all others , and US-F18 unmatched
The "Typhoon" has a highly selective jammer, which covers a range of 360 degrees, but only sends its signals in the direction of interfering radar source. This reduces their detectability. The disadvantage of ECM systems is, in part, that noise signals are peilbar. Many older jammer interference signals sent in all directions and could thus interfere with a large number of speed cameras.

In addition TRD which Rafale lacks

The radar decoy towing
A so-called radar towed decoy (Towed Radar Decoy - TRD) is a jammer on a retractable leash. The advantage is that the interference is not directly from the air, but at some distance, to be broadcast by the station on a leash attached. The enemy radar is therefore - despite the very efficient fault - only on the jammers themselves, not direct attention to the aircraft.
These radar trailing bait only to the UK and German machines will be equipped. The British received the machines developed by BAe Systems T-bait "Ariel" is which attached to a 100 meter long rope made of Kevlar. For the German machinery of the trailing bait "Sky Buzzer" by EADS / DASA is provided.
The selective disruption may generally takes only a limited number of speed cameras to be disturbed, for it reduces the probability of being discovered. In addition, the Selektivstörung against individual radar systems usually more efficient (higher field strength of the interference signal due to the directional effect). The ECM of the "Typhoon" is activated automatically, and interferes with the radar systems that represent the greatest threat to each of the aircraft.

- DDM (Détecteur infrarouge de Départ de Missiles) missile approach warning system based on dual-band midwave IR sensors which are located on each side of the SPECTRA fin tip pod, providing 360° atimuth coverage

PIMAWS 360 degree , three sensors instead of two .
India can have option of IR imaging or UV imaging . Ask me UV anytime .
Currently all Typhoons have -

DASS incorporates three Missile Approach Warners (MAW), one each in the port and starboard wing roots (near the cockpit) and one in the rear fuselage (near the tail). The units are derived from the Plessey PVS2000 MAW which utilises an active, pulse-doppler radar for detection. Since the units are active they are able to detect not only radar guided ordnance but also passive weapons such as infra red guided short range missiles. To increase the effectiveness of the system the MAW is also directly linked to the flare launchers allowing an instantaneous response to a local launch.

Two possible upgrades to the MAW system have been discussed as part of on-going DASS improvements for inclusion on either Tranche-2 or more likely Tranche-3. The first of these is a UV based system. These were discounted for the initial install of DASS because GEC-Marconi thought the technology immature at the time. A UV system detects the characteristic emmisions from the missile plume. The advantage is it can be highly discriminating against counter measures. However since it is reliant on detecting the plume of the missiles engine its primarily useful only during the burn phase

- 3 DAL (Detecteur d’Alerte Laser) laser warning receivers with sensors on the fuselage sides and the rear of the SPECTRA fin tip pod

To counter such threats the RAF Typhoon's will be equipped with a Laser Warning Receiver, LWR. Mounted below the nose the units will be capable of detecting any incoming laser radiation and determine its bearing.

So 4 different sensor types in Spetra alone provides full 360° coverage, RBE 2 radar, FSO, or the MICA IR seekers will add the SA only that is already provided by Spectra.

DASS + Pretorian + PIMAWS/mWW-MAWS alone provide full 360 coverage as well as countermeasures .

OSF - no FPA , range is 90 Km i guess . PIRATE - CCD FPA , Range is 150 Kms

RBE2 - Yes , but wait for 2 Years and Eurofighter will get much better AESA . Probably only one that can come close to APG-79

The fact is, they seems to think this is, that the combination of passive detection and targeting with Spectra + destroying of the targets with PGMs is more effecient than firing missiles only, because even if upgraded HARMs can use GPS guidance, or are better against countermesures, they will be fired preemptive, if the radar is turned off and not located yet, which means the use of serveral missiles will be needed to take out one target. And with the detection range of radars in over 200Km range, Spectra will give Rafale pretty much time to engange them.

But India , US , Russia , China think otherwise
Not , preemptive .
Missile is fired only when Threat is detected and ROE is met in co-ordination with other strike formation .
No , not several missile have to be fired . Even if Radar is turned off same missile will use micro wave terminal to home on to target .
And DAMASK seeker on same missile , you know ...................... . ??????
That's why US rules .
And 200 kms for spectra , dosen't matter France has no weapon with 200KM range for Rafale with/without AR seeker .

Btw, neither Gripen NG, nor the EF has integrated an ARM yet!

Never claimed
Rafale is best strike mission aircraft in blogs so let's analyse its weakness with F18 .

As I said all the time it's a different strategy! If you have a big fighter like the MKI which will be detected in distances, of course long range ARMs are the better choice for survivebility. But Rafale offers the exact opposite, it is hard to detect, offers excellent detection, idenfication and jamming features, so can get closer to the target and strike it more effective with PGMs. So it depends on the capabilities of the fighter, or weapons which strategy is better and Rafale has proved itself in this role. Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM was tested with ranges up to 100Km too, so strikes from distances are possible too and be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same?

Low RCS is a very weak statement , considering Rafale is not designed as VLO .
Fully armed Rafale and Fully armed Su30 have the same fate . Even if claims of Rafale having RCS btw 0.5 to 1 and su30 having RCS of 10-12 are true .
When you attach fuel tanks and missiles on 10 stations .
Rafale RCS will go up by 3-4 times(0.5 to 2) , while sukhoi30 will have only 10-20% percent increase (from 10 to 11.5 to 12). Get my point and every Radar on this earth can pick up Fighters with these figures at quite safe/good distances .

And personally , su30 RCS is just speculation on basis of untreated su27 .
Only calculation possible is for su-27 by the figures given by NIIP chief during Farnborough 2002 airshow for detection ranges of mig21 and su27 by BARS . If you calculate those figures , su27 comes to have RCS of 2.5-3 times of Mig21 .

be honest, wouldn't it be better for IAF to have fighters that offers different capabilities in this role, than the same?

Why Rafale only ,
Gripen is much more different to Su30 than Rafale .
Much more smaller , even though RCS consideration is moot imo . Gripen has better RCS figure than Rafale (RCS with external carriage looks stupid & dumb but that's fact with Gripen ) .
With all those new generation MAWS,LWS,RWR,Decoy,CMDS countermeasures on Gripen NG blended into the airframe . It can perform same mission with Precision stand-of weapons . At half the price of danger of loosing plane with less maintenance/manpower in every mission .

Also as I said before, the 125 Kg AASM
ASM has also an IR seeker with a CEP of 1m

Would like to see those missile figures , links plz . Are they in active service ????
HARM-E , KH-58UshE for su30 are in active service .

As stated before, Spectra will guide AASM

If , that is the case . What about " Launch and Leave / Fire and Forge****"

It don't has to be in production now, it has to be ready and mature by the time when the first MMRCA squads should be delivered

Any statements by Air-Force to back-up those claims . If Eurofighter consortium GmBH is ready to spend 100s of millions in trials ,weapons firing ,Aero-India expenses , offsets with local industries in Bangalore . They better have a reason of being confident enough to deliver Jets according to IAF demands .
I don't see any problems with any of the MRCA jets , esp with the way MKI were bought .

For the argument
No 90KN engine on Rafale
No HMS .
No METEOR
I say Rafale is immature in comparison to Hornet + Mig35 , and I dont see much coming until UAE funds them , and not before 2013 esp Meteor . While all other have capable BVR
Gripen+Eurofighter+F16+F18 .................... Best BVR in business
Mig35 .............. R77
Rafale ................. Sorry , but no alternative to MICA (max kill rate at less than 50Kms) .

The fact is our squad numbers are shrinkin, so fast integration and induction of the fighters should be an important requirement, which clearly speaks not in favour of EF, nor Mig 35 and even puts some ??? behind Gripen NG.

SQ nos shrinkin , yes agreed .
But , are we in that bad shape to have AESA/SPECTRA/METEOR urgent all in 2012 .
Get the jet that meets the req , every subsequent addition will keep coming .
I don't see either PAF or PLAAF having these tech now or for coming 3-4 years . By that time all MRCA jets will have everything .

In that case if we buy Rafale with MICA against su30MK+R77 of China , F16 with AIM120c5+ JF17 with PL12 codename SD10 ---- what say .
Better to have Mig35 in that place and with ARM-KH58 as well .

To tell you about mature jet wrt latest tech , I had same question about Naval Mig29K "Why not have zhuk-aesa+all goodies for new batch" .
Answer I got was - "You think Mig29 with ME is inferior to anything our adversary are flying . Rest is all up to you "

As I told you before, any fighter has pros and cons and I hope the one with the most pros wins and not the one with political benefits only.

Me too , so does everyone .

 

[Marxist]

Saab website for the 'Gripen for India'

 

[Marxist]

New Delhi: Even as six contenders for the $11 billion 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCAs) await verdict on the recently-concluded trials, the US administration has sought a bigger share for hi-tech American products in a bid to boost bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations with India.

In a meeting with minister of commerce and industry Anand Sharma on the sidelines of the Indo-US CEO Forum, US commerce secretary Gary Locke urged India to favourably consider the bids by Boeing and Lockheed, two contenders for the Indian Air Force’s MMRCA deal.

“The Indian government’s aircraft deal is very important to the US with vital implications for our bilateral defence, commercial and trade relations,” the US commerce department said. To further expand its footprints in India, defence major Boeing Company last week announced an agreement to acquire Narus Networks, a provider of real-time network traffic and analytics software based in California. Narus also has a strong presence in Bangalore.

“This acquisition is another step forward in our strategy to develop integrated solutions for better network visibility, threat detection, and cybersecurity,” said Roger Krone, president of Boeing Network & Space Systems.

“Narus’ India team and its unique capabilities to secure complex networks will be a significant benefit to Boeing and our customers,” he said. In addition to supporting cyber activities within Boeing Network & Space Systems, Narus’ network-centric technology also will be applied to Boeing’s smart grid energy work, the secure networking of the aircraft maker’s ground, air and space products and the defence of its network.

US hopes to clinch $11-bn aircraft deal

 

[sancho]

Yes , it does lack... .
There is no plan to integrate DIRCM on F3 for AdA .
Eurofighter and F18 have this thing already .
If at all Thales makes it available to India so is the case with PIMAWS ( if anything Euro partners won't buy PIMAWS , Germany + India can )

Please try to understand the difference!
DDM NG will be integrated with DIRCM capabilities till 2012 (according to official MBDA site and only AW blog states that AdA Rafales won't have that feature), while PIMAWS could be developed, but never was integrated into EF T2s and so far it is not known what T3A, or the later B will include. So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.
It doesn't make sense to argue with possible future capabilities, if it's not even clear if, or when they will be integrated, or available for us. Do you see me arguing with active stealth for Rafale, because the development was funded by French gov now, or ASMP which was integrated into Rafale now, but will not be available for India?

To add , Its wrong to say Eurofighter can't cue weapons with its passive sensors , have you seen ASRAAM firing with only use of PIRATE .

PIRATE is the IRST of EF, but we are talking about the EW suits and that's what I said! EF can't cue weapons on targets with its EWS like Rafale! An I told you several times now, that this and the enhanced SA in full spherical range that Spectra can provide in passive modes, not only the countermesures.

In addition TRD which Rafale lacks...

TD is a missile (SAM) countermesure and addition to protect the fighter from such threats by jamming its radar, or giving the missile another target.
So important against ground threats mainly in SEAD, or other strike missions and exactly here SPECTRA proofed itself several times to be excellent!

Operating in a dense, hostile environment, the aircraft’s systems provided pilots with a clear, precise view of the tactical situation. The multi-sensor data fusion system (RBE2 radar, Front Sector Optronic: FSO, SPECTRA self-defense suite, Link 16 data link) worked perfectly. Thanks to this system, the Rafale largely proved its self-defense capabilities. It experienced no losses due to air defense systems, and was often able to eliminate these threats.

The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, where during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.

The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system.

Fully armed Rafale and Fully armed Su30 have the same fate . Even if claims of Rafale having RCS btw 0.5 to 1 and su30 having RCS of 10-12 are true .
When you attach fuel tanks and missiles on 10 stations .
Rafale RCS will go up by 3-4 times(0.5 to 2) , while sukhoi30 will have only 10-20% percent increase (from 10 to 11.5 to 12). Get my point and every Radar on this earth can pick up Fighters with these figures at quite safe/good distances .

How can a fully loaded Rafale, with your figures (RCS of 2m2) can have the same fate as MKI with similar load (12m2)? Even an actual JF17 with KJ 7 radar would detect the MKI way before it could be close to any target, let alone the Erieye AWACS.
That exactly is the problem of IAF, AWACS available for PLAAF and PAF now!
One on one there are hardly fighters in PAF that can take on the MKI, but with AWACS support, things will be pretty different now. Sending an MKI for strikes will be more than difficult and dangerous and the only other IAF fighter that could be used in such role would be the upgraded M2K (we have only 50 of them).

Why Rafale only ,
Gripen is much more different to Su30 than Rafale .
Much more smaller , even though RCS consideration is moot imo . Gripen has better RCS figure than Rafale (RCS with external carriage looks stupid & dumb but that's fact with Gripen ) .
With all those new generation MAWS,LWS,RWR,Decoy,CMDS countermeasures on Gripen NG blended into the airframe . It can perform same mission with Precision stand-of weapons . At half the price of danger of loosing plane with less maintenance/manpower in every mission .

I said different capabilities, not different size than MKI. The technical evaluation in Brazil found out that Rafale has a lower RCS than Gripen NG and F18SH, also that Gripen is only in development and its real capabilities in are not clear now.
Also I never said Rafale only, but in A2G Gripen doesn't offer the range, nor the payload, that a Rafale, or F18SH can offer and even against the F16IN, it would hardly be on par. Gripen NG is meant mainly for air defense roles and secondary A2G roles, especially with heavy loads it will have less range compared to the others.

- Gripen NG can carry 2 stand off /cruise missiles, or heavy PGMs and 2 additional (1700l) fuel tanks
- F16IN can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs + 3 (1400l) fuel tanks and 2 CFTs
- Rafale can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (2000l fuel tanks), 2 CFTs are possible too
- F18SH can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (1800l) fuel tanks

Not to mention that Rafale and F18SH have have also more internal fuel than the Gripen.

Would like to see those missile figures , links plz . Are they in active service ????
HARM-E , KH-58UshE for su30 are in active service .

Not missiles, AASM PGM!

AASM weapons will be available in different versions with the bomb's accuracy ranging from more than one to more than 10 meters. This new weapon will be released from safe standoff ranges of about 15 km released from low altitude to up to 50 km released from high altitude. The hybrid guidance system is based in a combination of GPS (Global Positioning System) and solid-state gyro Inertial Measurement Unit (IMU) with night/day IR imaging terminal guidance being provided only for the high accuracy 1-meter Circular Error Probable (CEP) version.

AASM 1


Here is a post about AASM and its capabilities from the key forum:

This main asset of the AASM for CAS kit a ccording to pilot reports is that its booster enables it to manage "exotic" trajectories for a bomb that size (90° degree of the axis firing) reducing time engagement considerably. Also its high angle of impact reduces the probability friendly casualties.

In a more "symetric" warfare the abilty to shoot 6 AASM in one pass at standoff ranges up to 100km with the 125 kg version brings a tremendous firepower while improving the survivability considerably. It can be fired even at low altitude with a 15km range for the 250kg body.

Last but not least it can engage SAM sites when coupled to the spectra.

The AASM is truely a game changing AtG munition.

For the argument
No 90KN engine on Rafale
No HMS .
No METEOR

Engine upgrade to M88E4 is going and don't forget that it already has one of the best T/W ratios of all contenders, 90kN M88, or Kaveri-Snecma would just make it better, as it already is.
METEOR is in development and France is one of the first to get it, especially when UAE take Rafale.

I say Rafale is immature in comparison to Hornet + Mig35 , and I dont see much coming until UAE funds them , and not before 2013 esp Meteor . While all other have capable BVR

True for F18SH, but how can Mig 35 be mature, if only some prototypes are available and the production is already delayed (starting around 2013 only!)?

Answer I got was - "You think Mig29 with ME is inferior to anything our adversary are flying . Rest is all up to you "

Please don't tell me you believed that! China has the J -15 now, a Flanker class fighter and they already developing AESA radars. If PLAN comes out with a carrier and such a fighter, do you really believe Zhuk ME will be superior?
As far as I found out, Zhuk AE is still under development only and especially in the Air to Sea modes not comparable to the latest ME versions. It simply needs more time till it could be available for Mig 29K and Mig 35!
If it would be available now, why should IN don't take the radar that offers better performance and less maintenance? Or even more important, why should IN want AESA radar on less capable N-LCAs, but, no AESA for Mig 29K?

 

[sancho]

Gripen+Eurofighter+F16+F18 .................... Best BVR in business
Mig35 .............. R77
Rafale ................. Sorry , but no alternative to MICA (max kill rate at less than 50Kms)...

I wanted to reply to this separately, because there is a mistake in your theory! You compare the missile range and translate it to superior BVR capability of the fighter, which is not correct, because you have to add things like radar range, or RCS of the fighter too. Check this:

Rafale vs F18SH

...In a recent simulated exercise with the U.S. Navy jets French "downed" six F-18 and lost only two aircraft. The U.S. pilots said they could only see the Rafale on the radar when it was too late to react.

ISTOÉ Independente - Economia & Negócios


Rafale vs EF

Let’s talk now about the results of this exercise. Your squadron commander speaks of " to have put sheets" to the British participants equipped with Eurofighter with a ratio of 7 victories for 1 defeat, with degraded armament on the side of the Rafale. What is called degraded armament and which were the rules of engagement?

During an ATLC engagement, 2 Rafale engaged, using their whole system but simulating a weapon that requires taking more risk than normal, 4 Eurofighter. The 2 Rafale killed the 4 Typhoon which used all their normal capacities, without loss.
The rules of engagement were "beyond visual range".

(For the experts, the Rafale had then simulated the use of a semi-active missile while the missile normally used by the Rafale is an active missile, which allows to take cover more quickly after a shot.)...

...What are the differences between the two weapon systems, whether in terms of sensors and situation awareness for the pilot?

All have always dreamed of hundreds of Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 pilots became reality in the Rafale. It is the result of a long common adventure between Dassault and the French Air Force. The Rafale is the culmination of decades of experience in military aviation.
Finally, the Rafale fighter is a very complete aircraft:
The rafale is extremely maneuvering and thus awesome in dogfight. For example, confronted with a Eurofighter, engaged in a within visual range combat with a neck to neck start, we know we need a few dozens of seconds to validate a 'gun kill'.
In BVR air combat (beyond visual range, ie at ranges of several dozens of kilometers), the Rafale system provides synthetic information coming from multiple sensors. This information is therefore more accurate. We can do without 1 or 2 sensors during a whole combat while remaining extremely dangerous for the enemy. This gives us access to new tactics of particular interest.

RING - Capitaine Romain, pilote de Rafale en Afghanistan


Two examples where the Rafale, even with BVR missiles that had less range than the AIM 120s and also less radar range, was able to defeat the enemy!
Low RCS, situational awareness, passive detection and cueing capabilities are the biggest advantages of the Rafale and would be excellent additions to IAF and MKIs A2A capabilites.

IAF used the long radar range of Su 30s and data links in combination with the low RCS of the Mig 21 Bisons to counter F15s. Now think about what a great combination a passive Rafale (with FSO, MICA IR seekers and Spectra) and an active upgraded MKI (BARS AESA) would be in A2A, against the numerical superiority of PLAAF?
We will never counter their numbers, but we can counter them with new techs and capabilities that they can't get!

MKI in A2A with 12 AAMs:

Rafale in A2A with 6 AAMs and up to 4 more are possible):

 

[KEETARP]

Please try to understand the difference!
DDM NG will be integrated with DIRCM capabilities till 2012 (according to official MBDA site and only AW blog states that AdA Rafales won't have that feature), while PIMAWS could be developed, but never was integrated into EF T2s and so far it is not known what T3A, or the later B will include. So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.
It doesn't make sense to argue with possible future capabilities, if it's not even clear if, or when they will be integrated, or available for us. Do you see me arguing with active stealth for Rafale, because the development was funded by French gov now, or ASMP which was integrated into Rafale now, but will not be available for India?

First - the active cancellation is dream-land just like Plasma-Stealth
You know why - ? ?
check this Gambit's post - http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-forum/53000-what-wrong-rafale-2.html#post778438

and this one - http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-140.html#post966562

When you yourself don't know whether PIMAWS is on offer to India along with Typhoon or not ,
what is config of Tranche3a .
Who knows German typhoon might be flying with Infrared MAWS .
Why do you claim that only Rafale has 360 passive detection when it is not known whether DMM-NG will be developed by 2012 , or will it have DIRCM

Even your DDM-NG thing will come in future .

Your argument is wrong .

So DDM NG with all features will be available for India for sure, while it is still unclear what exaclty is on offer from EF T3 for India.

Even though DDM-NG is not developed it will be on offer for sure , while PIMAWS whose development started a full decade behind DDM-NG will not be . Why ????

EF can't cue weapons on targets with its EWS like Rafale! An I told you several times now, that this and the enhanced SA in full spherical range that Spectra can provide in passive modes, not only the countermesures.

Who says Eurofighter can't cue weapons by its EWS suite , I can explain it rt here . And even better than SPECTRA bcoz of HMS
but first you tell me how does SPECTRA achieve this and I will explain it to you .

TD is a missile (SAM) countermesure and addition to protect the fighter from such threats by jamming its radar, or giving the missile another target.
So important against ground threats mainly in SEAD, or other strike missions and exactly here SPECTRA proofed itself several times to be excellent!

Links for that towed decoy on Rafale , Plz ?????
not just claim on Forum

How can a fully loaded Rafale, with your figures (RCS of 2m2) can have the same fate as MKI with similar load (12m2)? Even an actual JF17 with KJ 7 radar would detect the MKI way before it could be close to any target, let alone the Erieye AWACS.
That exactly is the problem of IAF, AWACS available for PLAAF and PAF now!
One on one there are hardly fighters in PAF that can take on the MKI, but with AWACS support, things will be pretty different now. Sending an MKI for strikes will be more than difficult and dangerous and the only other IAF fighter that could be used in such role would be the upgraded M2K (we have only 50 of them).

Why bring JF17 into all this when we are talking about A2G mission .
Don't manipulate posts or try to put words into mouth .
No one is talking of A2A mission , it was SEAD effectiveness with HARM .
Since you have done -

And you believe Rafale would be invisible to SAAB-2000 radar / ground based radar .
If su30 is detected at 300 Km then ,Rafale will be at 150 km by Erieye , both are at equal risk .
Know why
one - JF17 pilot already knows both of them well beyond firing range of Sd10
two - For taking out JF17 , Rafale needs to go within 50 Kms of JF17 escaping Erieye
three - Su30 can take out at 100Kms range
four - As soon as you come within SD10 range of 80kms . Both the aircraft are at equal danger .

The technical evaluation in Brazil found out that Rafale has a lower RCS than Gripen NG

Non-sense . Not even worth replying

- Rafale can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (2000l fuel tanks), 2 CFTs are possible too
- F18SH can carry 2 missiles, or heavy PGMs and 3 (1800l) fuel tanks

Not to mention that Rafale and F18SH have have also more internal fuel than the Gripen

Yes , and to add to your cherry-picking
Internal Fuel on F18 6530 kgs , Internal fuel on Rafale 4500Kgs .
Means no fuel tanks on F18 needed .
Buy F18 , what is so unique about Rafale in above payload or range , that F18 lacks .

Here is a post about AASM and its capabilities from the key forum

Manufacturer's don't believe Keypub , below is the link .
Sagem : MARKETS / PRODUCTS*-*Avionics Systems & Navigation*-*Global solutions
We will talk , when French Air-Force orders them like . Till then AASM is future ..........

Engine upgrade to M88E4 is going on

Tell me when its done ,
Till then just like CAPTOR-AESA , like it or not others are better .

best T/W ratios of all contenders

I would say Eurofighter+Gripen is better . Justify your claim

True for F18SH

If true ,
So finally you admit that Rafale is immature in comparison to F18 . I will say buy mature platform rather than wasting on immature .

Please don't tell me you believed that! China has the J -15 now, a Flanker class fighter and they already developing AESA radars. If PLAN comes out with a carrier and such a fighter, do you really believe Zhuk ME will be superior?

When they develop AESA + first operational carrier with sq of J15 . Then we will discuss . Till then Mig29 is perfect for navy .

I guess few lines back we were discussing how Su30 sucks with high rcs against AWACS coupled JF17 . Same thing applies here .
Sides have change my friend , now we are in defensive with AWACS , same set of missiles . The one having better maneuverability and better IRST will win . J15 lacks TVC in addition to Mig29K has better IRST ( OLS K and OLS UE ) .

As far as I found out, Zhuk AE is still under development

But this same stupid Zhuk showed whatever IAF wanted to see in Russia , and fired a 100+ kms range BVR from AESA . Targeted a ground with KAB-500 SE

Zhuk-AE AESA radar finished flying tests( 2 years old news )

Russian news agency 'Interfax' informed yesterday, that NIIR 'Fazotron's Zhuk-AE AESA radar has finished an important stage of its flying tests. According to NIIR's chief designer Yury Gus'kov in these tests all air-to-air and air-to-ground radar modes were checked. The testing pilots were very impressed with radar's capability. 'In its last test the radar has disclosed and tracked 3 flying targets on the distance of up to 148 km. All modes of the radar were tested, including in tail-on engagement and close combat ' – said Gus'kov.

If it would be available now, why should IN don't take the radar that offers better performance and less maintenance?

Bcoz , navy dosen't think it needs AESA rt now ,
I have a link - Let me search for it by NIIR chief himself " We have offered AESA to next batch of mig29 to India"

 

[KEETARP]

I wanted to reply to this separately, because there is a mistake in your theory! You compare the missile range and translate it to superior BVR capability of the fighter, which is not correct, because you have to add things like radar range, or RCS of the fighter too. Check this:

Yes , lets compare F18 + Mig35 with rafale

F18+F16 detection range for Rafale(Fully armed rafale) at 120 kms . Coupled with wedgetail AWACS at 150 kms
Immediate engagement and shot fired with AIM120 ( 100+ )

For rafale -
One - Don't tell me Rafale has better radar than F18 ,
Two - Even if Rafale detects f18 at range of 160 Kms+ with AWACS , stiil has to wait till it gets within 50kms of F18 to get shot with MICA (only 50kms range for mica ) .
Get my point

METEOR is in development and France is one of the first to get it, especially when UAE take Rafale

Wrong , few months back on this same very forum you were telling me " All members involved in this project will get METEOR at the same time " .

I say if any one earlier , it will be Gripen bcoz it was the first Jet that fired METEOR first and is the Test bed for METEOR currently .

METEOR is future , lets leave it like PIMAWS /Active cancellation ??? Right .

In addition no HMS on Rafale , want to know how it helps in WVR ask any Fighter pilot .
No matter how good Spectra is or low your RCS is , if you lack HMS you wont have edge in taking the first shot in close range .

And plz , stop this cross posting from other forums / blogs . Most of them are their personal opinions . Some are baseless claims .
Kindly stop this cherry-picking .
Let's hear your analysis and objectivity
Even tons of material is present on forums like "What is wrong with Rafale "
btw you won't be knowing but a formation of Jaguars beat Rafale every single time in WVR fight years back .

“The Jaguar’s combination of a Helmet Mounted Sighting System (HMSS) with the IDM (Improved Data Modem) data-link provided the aircraft’s most useful and unique capability.

The helmet was even more useful in the air-ground role than for designating off-boresight targets for AAMs (a capability which saw Flight Lieutenant Jim Luke ‘down’ a Rafale during a recent NATO TLP exercise). Using the helmet made it much quicker to find a target, and to accurately determine its position.

With a known target position, the pilot simply plugs the coordinates into the navigation system, and then follows the HMS cueing to get ‘eyes-on’ to a target, confirming with the FAC that he is looking at the right target. Medium-level CAS used to take upwards of 20 minutes trying to get ‘eyes-on’, depending upon the terrain and the FAC’s ability to describe the target. It still does for every other air-to-ground platform. I estimate that we are typically hot on target in under 5 minutes. No one else can do that. During recent exercises in the UAE the Jaguars proved able to find a target and strike it with four aircraft within three minutes – something that might take more than five times as long with a formation of Harriers or Tornados.” .

 

[anathema]

Sancho/Prateek,

Not to play mod or anything like that..you guys are having great discussions which i am just beginning to grasp!! But lets keep a civil tone to the discussions.
Hate if you guys get into a fight !!

Thanks.

 

[dbc]

I am trying to get infos about older competitions and am going through several threads in different forums, most of the older links doesn't work anymore, but here someone posted several reports at once (quiet interesting!):

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX

Btw, I think we don't have to discuss about that such competitions won't be decided by the best fighter right? It's often about political advantages and that's the reason why the F15s won in S. Korea, or Singapore. Which possibly is the main reason why Rafale will win in Brazil and why the F18SH has good chances to win the MMRCA.

As I said I fully expected you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments, he made the same claim after the unsuccessful Korea bid and yet Korea is considering more F-15's I understand they've expressed keen interest in the SE specifically.

Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over. So far the French have ordered a minuscule 120 Rafale's contrast that with the 4,400 F-16's that have already been built by LM.

I've said this before I believe penetration into the Indian market is a strategic goal for both American firms and they are pursuing the MRCA deal aggressively. They will likely reinvest the MRCA contract value back into R&E and production plants in India with the aim of reducing cost for some of their established product offerings.

The undeniable fact is Rafale and Typhoon are both struggling to sustain production for a plane their own armed services can ill afford. Haven't you noticed how Britain and France are happy to offer their own planes to international customer, aircrafts that were originally intended for their own forces. The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.

 

[indushek]

As I said I fully expected you to echo Yves Robins's sentiments, he made the same claim after the unsuccessful Korea bid and yet Korea is considering more F-15's I understand they've expressed keen interest in the SE specifically.

Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over. So far the French have ordered a minuscule 120 Rafale's contrast that with the 4,400 F-16's that have already been built by LM.

I've said this before I believe penetration into the Indian market is a strategic goal for both American firms and they are pursuing the MRCA deal aggressively. They will likely reinvest the MRCA contract value back into R&E and production plants in India with the aim of reducing cost for some of their established product offerings.

The undeniable fact is Rafale and Typhoon are both struggling to sustain production for a plane their own armed services can ill afford. Haven't you noticed how Britain and France are happy to offer their own planes to international customer, aircrafts that were originally intended for their own forces. The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.

Look i am just a fanboy and have very very very limited knowledge in technicalities but i have really fallen in love with F-15 SE once i saw it. I would love to see it in IN colours.