Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Doga]

F 18 sh is better deal if come with TOT and no restriction...

 

[redpearl75]

F 18 sh is better deal if come with TOT and no restriction...

Well that's what's being speculated and is still unsure from America and they have always been hesitant in doing so... And moreover SH is not a great deal compared to Rafale and EFT as they offer a lot lot more than what American are right now... European Union has offered India a full partnership in the further developement of EFT future models and has also offered the full Tech transfer along with the AESA technology and same goes for Rafale as they too are kneen in doing so and showed much interest.... I would prefer SH for the carrier fleet in the years to come but not as a major fighting machine as an IAF fighter....

No offence...

 

[redpearl75]

and moreover Rafale is the best option as per the requirements and options that it offers....

 

[soaringphnx]

European Union has offered India a full partnership in the further developement of EFT future models and has also offered the full Tech transfer along with the AESA technology and same goes for Rafale as they too are kneen in doing so and showed much interest....

french are giving us full tot and source codes
see for yourself in wikipedia

Actually, India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Also, the French haven't specified what they mean by going "beyond a buyer-seller relationship". Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components. Of course, the number of U.S. components used is very low compared to other contenders like the Gripen (and obviously F-18 and F-16 which are 100% U.S.) and it is a definite advantage. The only fighter in the competition which does not use any U.S. components is the MiG-35, so the Russians can offer us full ToT.

P.S. I agree with Redpearl that the Rafale appears to be the best option for the IAF, but it will come with it's own set of problems.

 

[SpArK]

Actually, India will not be an equal member in the consortium. Also, the French haven't specified what they mean by going "beyond a buyer-seller relationship". Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components. Of course, the number of U.S. components used is very low compared to other contenders like the Gripen (and obviously F-18 and F-16 which are 100% U.S.) and it is a definite advantage. The only fighter in the competition which does not use any U.S. components is the MiG-35, so the Russians can offer us full ToT.

P.S. I agree with Redpearl that the Rafale appears to be the best option for the IAF, but it will come with it's own set of problems.

France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..

That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.

Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.

UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News

 

[rockstarIN]

France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..

That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.

Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.

UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News

French is always greedy. Very commercial..!!

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

French is always greedy. Very commercial..!!

Commercial is better than political(read US).

 

[soaringphnx]

France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..

That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.

Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.

UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News

The Americans have a trump card in the form of political gains. Moreover, the F-18SH is a fully developed mature fighter and is likely to be priced lower than the Rafale. So now with the future of their fighter in jeopardy, I expect the French to bring up new offers to make the Rafale deal look more attractive. They may even stop being so pricy.

 

[rockstarIN]

The Americans have a trump card in the form of political gains. Moreover, the F-18SH is a fully developed mature fighter and is likely to be priced lower than the Rafale. So now with the future of their fighter in jeopardy, I expect the French to bring up new offers to make the Rafale deal look more attractive. They may even stop being so pricy.

True.

All the MMRCA fighter's future propects depends upon Indian Decision..

 

[cybertron]

All the MMRCA fighter's future propects depends upon Indian Decision..

feel the power)

 

[sancho]

Both the French and EADS cannot give us "full" or "100%" ToT. Some of the components used in the Rafale and Typhoon are of U.S. origin and those components will need clearance from the U.S. government before ToT. EADS and French can only offer us ToT for their components.

That's not correct, because all their main parts like radar, engine and most avionics are developed by themself, that's why they can offer up to 100% ToT of these parts.
The Gripen NG instead uses an US engine and the radar as well as IRST are mainly ITA/UK origin, that's why Saab is way more dependent on ToT clearance and other countries than the EF, or Rafale.
It's even interesting that the Gripen NG uses even more foreign parts than the actual Gripen C/Ds because the earlier versions used a Swedish radar and the RM 12 engine is a version of the GE 404, but said to have up to 40% Volvo parts too.

France has even asked UAE to pay the expenses of future upgrades..

That is not a good sign of a good manufacturer.

Rafale pro-gramme will be in serious danger in future too if India does nt join and French will milk out each penny.

UAE May Ditch Rafale - Defense News

No, they wanted the UAE to pay for the upgrades they wanted, like higher thrust engines, other radar modes, more weapon stations and integrated weapons. If we want to customise the Rafale with Kaveri engine, or Indian weapons for example, we have to pay for it too, so that's nothing surprising. The Rafale F3+ like the French forces will get from 2012 onwards are funded with AESA, upgraded engines and avionics, but that's simply not enough for the UAE.

Btw, the interest in the F18 SH is only a taktic of the UAE to get the best deal and lower costs, because it wasn't a real competition like the MMRCA yet. The only point where the Superhornet at the moment can offer more than the Rafale is radar, but the T/W ratio is less, the IRST is not integrated, the cockpit uses still some analog displays and more important for the UAE, the US will not agree to sell cruise missiles to them, or integrate the Black Shaheen into the F18SH. Also UAE wants Rafale only if France buys back the M2k-9s, but will the US by them back just to sell the F18SHs? Don't think so!

All the US can do here, is to offer a similar deal as they did with the F16 block 60. Let them pay a part of the upgrades (in this case possibly those that Boeing presented at Farnborough) and let them benefit from exports, but that's pretty much what France offers with the Rafale too.

 

[gogbot]

It seems to be going EuroFighter on the MoD front
It's not the best plane for the Job.
But it's been touted to be ahead in both the MMRCA and LCA engine Bid.

An EJ200 production line in India, Partnership in the EF consortium, Becoming permanent stakeholders. possibly also meeting international orders in the future.

MoD might find the whole thing very appealing. Gives them a great deal of investment and also control over the plane as an asset. They would not just be buyers but Manufacturers.

I don't see how you can go beyond the buyer-seller relationship more than that.

 

[Dash]

An EJ200 production line in India, Partnership in the EF consortium, Becoming permanent stakeholders. possibly also meeting international orders in the future.

MoD might find the whole thing very appealing. Gives them a great deal of investment and also control over the plane as an asset. They would not just be buyers but Manufacturers.

Though the offer looks irresistable, we need to be very careful here.
EADS which currently with EFT along with the 4 countries, they are actually not able to sort the technical specification of EFT or the sharing of developemntal cost themselves.

As a result of which this plane is not moving anywhere, even moving but slow.

They have made it very clear that India will not be a country which will have a say in decision making process in future and they will not treat us as partners in everything. What works best for the is to move the EJ2000 production line to India en route the touted TOT, will actually help them reduce the cost for making this plane (its an advantage for us too, but limited to only some 126 fighters we will buy). But if you go beyond and want a further modification or developemnt in EFT in future, you will actually go through too many routes to make things happen for the craft.

This is the real internal challange that lies with EFT. I dont see it as a "very" profitable or different than what others are offering. There is hardly anything beyond here.

 

[gogbot]

Though the offer looks irresistable, we need to be very careful here.
EADS which currently with EFT along with the 4 countries, they are actually not able to sort the technical specification of EFT or the sharing of developemntal cost themselves.

As a result of which this plane is not moving anywhere, even moving but slow.

They have made it very clear that India will not be a country which will have a say in decision making process in future and they will not treat us as partners in everything. What works best for the is to move the EJ2000 production line to India en route the touted TOT, will actually help them reduce the cost for making this plane (its an advantage for us too, but limited to only some 126 fighters we will buy). But if you go beyond and want a further modification or developemnt in EFT in future, you will actually go through too many routes to make things happen for the craft.

This is the real internal challange that lies with EFT. I dont see it as a "very" profitable or different than what others are offering. There is hardly anything beyond here.

I agree , but It still does not change the EF And Ej200 being touted as winners as of late.

And i can't help but think that this is because of the MoD looking at a very unique opportunity. Engine control is major issue for them. That alone is enough really.
The idea that HAL Can do the Upgrades for the EuroFighter.

 

[Dash]

I agree , but It still does not change the EF And Ej200 being touted as winners as of late.

And i can't help but think that this is because of the MoD looking at a very unique opportunity. Engine control is major issue for them. That alone is enough really.
The idea that HAL Can do the Upgrades for the EuroFighter.

Thats true from what it looks like too. To be very honest, every fighter here has some trade off and trade on. What we need to understand here is how much hassle we are avoiding in future.

EJ2000 is a much perferred engine that GE at this stage, its very modern and has growth potential. Even GE has growth too with EPE engine being offered in MRCA.

The only issue that is stopping us is the American trust deficit, if it wasnt there I am sure we would have already made a decision to buy from them.