What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.
MMRCA: The Political Angle


All the latest news reports suggest that IAF evaluation on the 6 MMRCA competitor will be out soon with the deal being signed within a year after that. One competitor out 4 short listed fighters will be selected for the contract. Now we all know that ultimately the decision will be taken with politics in mind. PM Manmohan Singh himself once said in pretext to MMRCA that the winner of the contract will be the one who's country will have maximum to offer. This really does puts out Gripen's chances to win the contract considering the fact that Sweden doesn't have anything to offer to India apart from the fighter itself.
The Congress Party of India wants India to be a permanent member of UNSC which will give it a serious advantage over its political rivals in the country. All members of UNSC support India for this except the USA and China. Communist China with its egoistic ambition will never support India. Russia has been a long standing supporter of India in all matters and India definitely wants to hold on to this and hence there was report which suggested that India will try to please Russia but its unlikely to give a order of 126 fighter jets to Russia's MiG-35. But it will buy a smaller number (50-60) of these jets to maintain IAF's numbers and make Russia happy. Same goes with France which India has some level of dislike for its military supplies to Pakistan. French competitor, the Rafael is closely matched with American F/A-18SH but it is more expensive than it. France it likely to receive $2.5 Billion* contract to upgrade IAF's Mirage-2000's, this offer was selected over Israel's cheaper offer. India also used this offer to end Pakistan's efforts to acquire similar systems from France for its JF-17 fighter aircraft.
The other aircraft along with Sweden's Gripen that has very less political attraction is Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon. Its extremely expensive and its sponsor countries are no longer inclined to buy it which mean that it will remain very expensive. Plus UK its primary backer will not withdraw its support for UNSC seat even if its Typhoon is not selected. That now leave just the F-16IN and F/A-18 SH both of which are of American origin. USA has long not supported India for the permanent seat but the relations are improving everyday. US sees India as a important ally in afghn-pakis situation and against the Chinese and so does India. Multiple contracts were given to USA and USA was the one which got India into the NSG. American stance on the UNSC seat is also changing dramatically with positive comments from American diplomats and envoys. Hence India will try hard to please America by giving the contract to American competitors mostly Boeing's F/A-18 SH instead of the F-16 which is already in PAF's inventory. Hence I conclude that F/A-18SH is the strongest contender to win the contract.

india wants u.s shield,f-18 is the manmohan's choice
 
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!


TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!"]TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA


Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.
 
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!


TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!"]TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA


Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.

Man! This is getting better and better.

Time to show the door to the Americans!
 
I donot think it will be good choice to go with Americans, so many restrictions and that too for a fighter jet is not a good decision. Uncle Sam always shows a lollypop for deal and later put it back in his pocket. If India select SH also for MRCA then again so many contract signing for its technologies and no source codes also for radar and core components.
Better choice could be Rafael or Eurofighter, which suits best IAF requirements and no issues in ToT also. But seeing at Congress goverment attitude things looks in favourable in US side.
 
i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........

is it underestimated or (currently) immature....

i request the members to shed some light on air to ground capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....

thanks in advance.....
 
i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........

is it underestimated or (currently) immature....

i request the members to shed some light on air to ground capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....

thanks in advance.....

Its from Wiki but i hope it clarify some of your doubts regarding performance of Eurofighter . How ever according to me Eurofighter is still primarily an airsuperiority fighter Probably second only to F-22 Raptor

Air-to-ground capabilities

A Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoon FGR4 at Nellis AFB in Nevada, USAThe Typhoon is a multi-role fighter with maturing air-to-ground capabilities. Earlier than scheduled, the RAF integrated the air to ground capability, based on the Rafael[137]/Ultra Electronics Litening III laser designator [138] and the Enhanced Paveway II/III laser guided bomb[139] under the "Austere" programme.[140] A more comprehensive air-to-ground attack capability including Paveway IV, EGBU-16 bombs and a higher degree of automation will be achieved for all partner nations with the Phase 1 Enhancements currently in development.[141]

The absence of such a capability is believed to have been a factor in the type's rejection from Singapore's fighter competition in 2005. At the time it was claimed that Singapore was concerned about the delivery timescale and the ability of the Eurofighter partner nations to fund the current capability packages.[142] With the planned Phase 2 Enhancements Eurofighter GmbH hopes to increase the appeal of Typhoon to possible export customers and to make the aircraft more useful to partner air forces.[141]

Radar signature reduction features
Although not designated a stealth fighter, measures were taken to reduce the Typhoon's radar cross section (RCS), especially from the frontal aspect.[143][144] An example of these measures is that the Typhoon has jet inlets that conceal the front of the jet engine (a strong radar target) from radar. Many important potential radar targets, such as the wing, canard and fin leading edges, are highly swept, so will reflect radar energy well away from the front sector.[145] Some external weapons are mounted semi-recessed into the aircraft, partially shielding these missiles from incoming radar waves.[143] In addition radar absorbent materials (RAM) developed primarily by EADS/DASA coat many of the most significant reflectors, e.g. the wing leading edges, the intake edges and interior, the rudder surrounds, strakes, etc.[143][146] The Typhoon does not use internal storage of weapons. External mounting points are used instead, which increases its radar cross section but allows for more and larger stores.[147] The Eurofighter operates automatic Emission Controls (EMCON) to reduce the Electro-Magnetic emissions of the current mechanically scanned Radar.[143] The Captor-M was the first NATO-Radar with three rather than two working channels, one intended for classification of jammer and for jamming suppression.[148] The German BW-Plan 2009 indicates that Germany will equip/retrofit the Luftwaffe's Eurofighters with the AESA Captor-E from 2012.[149] The conversion to AESA will give the Eurofighter a Low Probability of Intercept Radar with much better jam resistance.[150][151] These include an innovative design with a gimbal to meet RAF requirements for a wider scan field than a fixed AESA.[152] The coverage of an fixed AESA is limited to 120 degree in azimuth and elevation.[153]

According to the RAF, the Eurofighter's RCS is better than RAF requirements. Comments from BAE Systems suggest the radar return is around one quarter of that of the Tornado it replaces.[154] The Eurofighter is thought to have an RCS of less than one square metre in a clean configuration by author Doug Richardson, although no official value is available.[145] This compares with the estimated RCS of the Rafale of 2 square metres,[155] the 10 square metres of the Su-30MKI,[156] the 1 square metre of the Su-35BM[157] and the American F-117 of 0.025 square metres.[155] The manufacturers have carried out tests on the early prototypes to optimize the low observability characteristics of the aircraft from the early 1990s. Testing at BAE's Warton facility on the DA4 prototype measured the RCS of the aircraft and investigated the effects of a variety of RAM coatings. Another measure to reduce the likelihood of discovery is the use of passive sensors, which minimises the radiation of treacherous electronic emissions. While canards generally have poor stealth characteristics,[158] the flight control system is designed to minimise the RCS in flight, maintaining the elevon trim and canards at an angle to minimise RCS.[159][160]
Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
:partay::D:police::bounce::chilli::victory::taz:
 
i think most the members (including me) who r in favor of choosing rafale over eft is bcoz the former has better air to ground capabilities ........

is it underestimated or (currently) immature....

i request the members to shed some light on air to ground capabilities of eurofighter typhoon .....

thanks in advance.....

So far the British EFs are the most advanced with best A2G capabilities. They have integrated full EWS capabilities, the litening pod and Paveway 2/3 LGB, Paveway 4 are in testing stage at the moment.

On the other side, the Litening pod can only carried on the centerline station so far, which occupies 1 heavy station that normally is used for fuel tanks. This means in strike role with LGBs, the range is limited, because of the targeting pod!

The other big disadvantage at the moment is, that not a single A2G missile was integrated yet. No Brimstone (anti tank), no ALARM/HARM (anti radiation), no Peguin/Harpoon (anti ship) and no stand off, or cruise missile (Hope/Hosbo/Taurus/Storm Shadow).
The competition is for medium class multi role fighters, but the EF so far, sadly can do only A2A and light strikes in closer distances and as long as the partner countries don't decide about the Tranche 3A, we can't say what exaclty will be integrated for the fighters that will be available for us.

A recent aviation week report says, that the AESA is planed (if anything goes without delays) for 2015, but mainly with A2A modes and A2G modes for such A2G missiles possibly only by 2016/17 with the tranche 3B. That alone is bad news for the MMRCA, because it is way too late for the IAF requirements, but more difficult is, that most of the partner countries could cancell their orders for tranche 3B fighters. We must keep in mind that UK and Italy will get F35 in the strike role too and they simply don't have the need to pay more money in the integration of further A2G capabilities of the EF.

On paper, or on pics the EF looks more than great and was always one of my favourit fighters (in general, not for MMRCA), but the member development is very slow and the need and financial situation of the partner countries, makes further developments difficult. A fully developed EF would be a hell of a fighter, but it's simply way too late!

Here a pic of the EF displayed at AI 09, with weapons that are on offer, but on offer doesn't mean operational, or integrated anytime soon:

highres_gld-090191q4p7.jpg


Iris-T SR AAM - integrated and operational
Aim 120 C5 MR AAM - integrated and operational
Paveway 4 LGB - in testing and integration stage
Meteor LR AAM - under development, but ordered for EF to replace AIM 120
Brimstone ATGM - not integrated, or ordered
Taurus CM - not integrated, or ordered
Storm Shadow CM - not integrated, or ordered

Not on the pic, but offered in Farnborough

Hope/Hosbo SOM - not integrated, or ordered
 
can anyone tell me what is that thing i am pointing in the picture ?

seikox.jpg
[/URL] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]
 
LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!

Just caught this on TimesNOW and boy has it already kicked up a storm! The IAF isn't officially commenting on this, since they don't do that. If this is correct, it matches with Scenario-4 of the possibilities I posted a few days ago. The war of the Eurocanards! Many believe (and have expressed as much here on the blog) that a face-off between the Rafale and Typhoon would be the most appropriate competition if the IAF was looking for truly modern fourth-generation fighter jets, designed and built fresh with forward-looking possibilities, true license-build possibilities. If this report is true, the IAF has basically, with one fell swoop, dismissed the Gripen NG, MiG-35, and both the American teens -- the F-16 Block 60 and F/A-18/E/F -- from the world's most lucrative fighter competition in recent memory. Or it has indicated that it would prefer these two aircraft over the others (which one over the other, though, is tantalizingly not mentioned). Assuming any of this is true, this is hardly the end. Will the government dutifully open commercial bids and pick between the two? Have the others actually been eliminated or simply been pushed down the preference order of merit? Can the government make a political decision between the Rafale and Typhoon? What was all that American pressure all about? Will the government disregard the IAF trials? Will it ask for more trials? Will it go by the book? Will the MMRCA be the Rafale's blistering account opener? Stay tuned. I'm as curious as you are, and will be tracking developments very closely. Read my MMRCA series post a year ago on the Typhoon and Rafale.

Assuming these two aircraft are the only ones moving to the next level, which do you think the government should choose and why? Let's see what everyone thinks. Vote below and post your comments.
 
ok..Mohotarama is out with her details...

Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!


There was a reason for the delay of this report. Chindits is in possession of a RFP copy of the MMRCA. All information about individual aircraft, is based on answers provided by vendors through email about specific questions.

As the technical evaluation report of the world's largest defence deal – the medium multi-role combat role aircraft (MMRCA) gets completed by the Indian Air Force (IAF), before handing it to the Ministry of Defence (MoD), DNA has learnt from reliable sources, that there is a vast difference in the Air Staff Qualitative Requirement (ASQR) being fulfilled by the competitors, in engine requirements.

Of the 126, India will directly purchase 18 aircraft, of which 12 will be single-seater and six twin-seater aircraft. These aircraft will be located at three main operating bases and would be distributed among six independant flying squadrons, two per main operating base, with each squadron comprising 12 single-seat aircraft, while the remaining to be stored as reserves.

The six competitors are American Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet IN, F-16IN Super Viper from the US Lockheed Martin, Gripen Next Generation (NG) from Sweden's Saab, European consortium EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon, French Rafale from Dassault Aviation and the Russian MiG-35.

According to the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

“The MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner, should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) and fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling, should be a 9G aircraft and talks of the maximum limit of a vertical or negative G the aircraft can pull and hold for more than 10 seconds with afterburners engaged.”

The thrust-to-weight ratio, is of critical importance, as a senior IAF official told DNA, "As the weight would only increase with the increase in armament and weapons onboard, therefore a powerful engine was required. Some have come close to the required parameters but some aircraft have shown disappointing results The aircraft should also have endurance for longer periods and the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter."

Price:

The MoD had extended the date for price quotation and asked the six competing global fighter aircraft manufacturers for the revised price for the aircraft as the original deadline for the commercial bids to be opened was April 2010, according to the tender, which would have had the original price if the bids were opened on time. But owing to delay caused by the field evaluation of all six aircraft, an extension of three months was given, and the vendors were asked to submit their fresh prices, whether they would go with the original quoted price or would quote a revised price, was to be conveyed to the MoD.

By the end of July all six aircraft giants in the fray have to inform the MoD, whether there is a revision in the price of their aircraft or the old price be considered.

A senior IAF (Indian Air Force) told DNA, “The commercial bids of only the short-listed vendors will be opened, but the fresh price as on date needs to be known. Since the trials have caused delay, so the April 2010 deadline could not be met,” adding that finally the deal would go upto around 18 billion dollars with infrastructure, training and other expenditure included.

Governments of the aircraft manaufacturers rooting for their product:

It may also be noted that Government representatives of the aircraft manufacturing countries participating in this deal have started pitching for their respective aircraft.

DNA has learnt that Vice Admiral Jeffrey A Wieringa, Director Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the US, wrote to the MoD, that the global tender for the aircraft deal, be converted into a single vendor Hybrid FMS (foreign military sale) deal, suiting the US and one of its competing manufacturers be given the contract under it. FMS is a government-to-government agreement for a contract without an open tender, which makes it convenient for critical technologies to be transferred and also cuts out a lot of other hassles, thereby hastening up the process, but is expensive. The Hybrid FMS route is a special provision in the US government, given to a buyer country, interested in purchasing defence equipment from the US.

US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates is believed to have written a similar letter in 2008, when the bids were submitted for the aircraft, to the MoD, to have an FMS agreement for the contract.

Letters from other Government representatives also have reached MoD, but South Block is understood to have turned down these requests, and is strictly following the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP), with its transparency clause. All European governments are understood to be backing the Eurofighter Typhoon.

US Boeing's F/A-18 IN Super Hornet

Reliable sources have confirmed to DNA that the F/A-18 IN Super Hornet, has an underpowered engine, with both engines adding upto 180 KN (wet power) , and the thrust to weight ratio being less than 1, which doesn't meet the IAF ASQR, which should be more than one.

Said a senior IAF officer, “The .93 thrust to weight ratio of the Super Hornet speaks of the underpowered engines, plus the aircraft can only pull a maximum of 7.5 G, which is below the requirement which is 9G.”

According to company statement given to DNA by Boeing, "As required per India's Defence Procurement Procedure, compliance demonstrations for all MMRCA Air Staff Qualitative Requirements were conducted with Super Hornets during the Field Evaluation Trials. The ultimate decision lies with the Indian Air Force, however, the US Navy / Boeing Team are confident that the demonstrations conducted during FET confirmed compliance with all MMRCA ASQRs."

US Lockheed Martin's F-16IN Super Viper.

The single-engine F-16IN Super Viper's GE F110-GE-132A engine, produces up to 144 KN thrust and can pull 9 G and -3 vertical G, while engaging in combat manouvers. The aircraft has a thrust to weight ratio of 6.36:1 and, “Can fly for more than eight hours continuously with air-to-air refueling,” according to the response sent by the manufacturer to DNA. Calling it a completely new product, tailored to suit the IAF's ASQRs, Lockheed stated that the twin-seat version would have all the operational attributes of a single-seat variant inclusive of a radar, and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs (which includes weapons).

Swedish Saab's JAS 39 Gripen NG

Sweden's Gripen Next Generation (NG), has an engine with wet power of 97.8 KN, and is a 9G aircraft with 13G in emergency and -3 vertical or negative G.

In a response to DNA, Swedish Saab said that, “The aircraft has sea level static thrust to weight ratio in Indian Standard Atmosphere conditions as 1:1 with full missile load.”

Gripen NG can carry an external load of 7200 kg of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons and other external stores and fly more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling, and the twin seater variant will have the same operational attributes as the single seater.

European EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon

The twin-engine multi-role fighter, in service in the airforces of Germany, UK Royal Airforce, Spain and Italy, the four countries engaged in manufacturing the aircraft, is yet to see combat, but has a wet power of both engines put together adding upto 180 KN thrust (20,000 lbs).

The Eurofighter Typhoon can pull +9 and -3 negative or vertical G, is able to carry an external load which of more than 7500 kg and can fly for more than eight hours with air-to-air refueling and the twin-seat will be similar to the single-seat version in operational attributes.

French Dassault Aviation's Rafale fighter aircraft.

The twin-engine Rafale, operational in the French airforce and the Navy, has at the moment, the Snecma M88-2 with a wet thrust of 176 KN (both engines). A next generation engine, with a thrust of 9000kg, is being tested, but its date of availability is unknown, even as Dassault claims it will take three years.

The aircraft can pull -3 to 9G (11G in emergency), sustainable with a pilot.

Sources told DNA about the Rafale's thrust to weight ratio, “This depends heavily on the fuel and weapon load, and it will be different for 25%, 50% or 100% fuel load.” According to different sources, the ratio of the Rafale (thrust to weight) may vary from 1.13 to 1.27.

The Rafale can carry a maximum of an external load of 9500 kg and can fly for around 15 hours with refueling.

The major differences between the single-seat and the twin-seat Rafale B are of weight and lower inner fuel capacity. The Rafale B is heavier by 350kg and its lower inner fuel capacity, which is around 400 liters of less fuel. The remaining equipment are similar, including the radar RBE-2.

Russian MiG-35 (As of now just one aircraft has been produced, the twin-seat MiG-35D)

Called a derivative of the existing MiG-29 fighter, the MiG-35 still doesn't exist, and has just one aircraft flying, the twin-seat MiG-35D, which was unveiled in 2007 in Bangalore during Aero India.

With a thrust to weight ration being 1.03, the two engines provide a wet thrust of 176.6 KN. A 11G aircraft capable of a -3 vertical G, the MiG-35 twin-seat variant, the MiG-35D, has all the operational attributes of a single-seat fighter including the radar. The aircraft can fly more than eight hours ith refueling and can carry an external load of more than 5000 kgs.

Coming up next : What is causing a delay in this deal?
 
^^ as usual nothing interesting in the report ..except for super bug is incapable of pulling 9G .... I dont know if this is true or not.

Last i heard SH is capable of pulling more than 9G , but software restricts it to 9G....

At this point i feel that all the defence journos are keen to increase hits on their blogs .... Yellow journalism at its best !!!
 
^^ as usual nothing interesting in the report ..except for super bug is incapable of pulling 9G .... I dont know if this is true or not.

Last i heard SH is capable of pulling more than 9G , but software restricts it to 9G....

At this point i feel that all the defence journos are keen to increase hits on their blogs .... Yellow journalism at its best !!!

The interesting part of this report, are the requirements from the RFP, the rest are mainly infos of the vendors itself, not what the trial found out.
No, the F18SH can only pull less and the official Boeing site says that too:

General Characteristics:

Field Landing Weight 50,600 lb (22,951 kg)
Max takeoff weight 66,600 lb (30,209 kg)
Speed: Mach 1.8
Combat Ceiling 50,000
Design load factor 7.6g

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf


If Chindits is right and T/W of 1, or better and 9G are requirements, it will make it very difficult for the Super Hornet and with my own calculations, even the Gripen should not fullfil the T/W requirements (depending on which specs of Saab are really true).
 
at LDU Company out of

---------- Post added at 10:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

China with free shipping to

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

anywhere in the world. My friend
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom