What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

Status
Not open for further replies.
How many engines for the MMRCA?​
Sunday, August 8, 2010
By Saurabh Joshi

How many engines for the MMRCA? | StratPost

Anytime now, the Indian Air Force (IAF) should be submitting its report on the technical evaluations of six aircraft for its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, indicating its assessment and by extension, preferences, after which the Ministry of Defense (MoD) will open the commercial bids submitted by the six vendors and list them in terms of the best prices offered.

But in this contest, the IAF has to make a comparison of the performances of single-engine aircraft, the Gripen and the F-16, with twin-engine fighters, the MiG-35, F/A-18 Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon. Speculative noises over the past year have indicated it to be entirely possible for all these aircraft to make the cut as far as the parameters or Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQRs) laid down by the IAF are concerned.

Indeed, the varied character of the six aircraft taking part in the competition, which also cleared the paper-evaluation of their respective technical abilities last year, indicates that possibly all six aircraft could match these parameters in different ways to, more or less, the same extent.

The IAF has also said over the past year, that no aircraft would get extra credit for exceeding the SQRs. From all accounts, the IAF has been comparing the aircraft with the parameters laid down in the SQRs and not with each other. In such a scenario, the IAF could end up having a difficult time distinctly marking their preferred aircraft from the six in the fray. Three possible scenarios could come up.

The IAF could indicate a preference for either only single-engine or twin-engine aircraft, but questions could be asked as to why the IAF made no prior indication of a preference for either type of aircraft. Or thirdly, the IAF could throw up a mix of both types, if not all the competitors, in its technical report. So if the IAF does clear both, single and twin-engine aircraft, in its report, the MoD could be faced with the task of finally comparing the technical merits of the contenders with respect to their cost.

How do you compare the cost and reliability of a single-engine aircraft with a twin-engine aircraft? It seems obvious that single-engine aircraft would be much cheaper to buy and maintain, especially in terms of life-cycle cost, and that the reliability of twin-engine aircraft would exceed those of single-engine aircraft.

And if the IAF gives no extra points for performance exceeding the ASQR parameters laid down, then a decision on selection could rest solely with the MoD judging the commercial bids, where single-engine fighters would have an edge in terms of pricing.

Or would they?

The Austrian decision on the purchase of fighter aircraft is an interesting study of how a unified measure of the cost of the two types of aircraft with respect to their performance can be quantified.

The Austrian Court of Auditors examined the award of a contract for the supply of 24 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to the Österreichische Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian Air Force) in 2004, which had been competing with the Swedish Gripen for the order. The court looked at the process their Austrian Ministry of Defense used to arrive at a cost and utility analysis of the two aircraft on the basis of a mathematical model.

The court scanned the process their MoD used for gauging the operational capabilities of the two aircraft — what the report refers to as ‘the military benefits of an aircraft’ or what it means in a fight. Weightage was given to different criteria of performance (range, payload etc), which were tabulated and summed up out of a maximum cumulative weightage of 1000 points. The Eurofighter Typhoon scored a little higher in terms of the weightage given by the Austrian Air Force for performance with respect to their requirements.

The report says the auditors, evaluating the result of the Austrian Air Force and the MoD, found that weightage given to 35 performance criteria required adjustment, which resulted in a further shift of the cumulative weightage in favor of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The relationship between the respective costs and the military benefits or operational performance of the two aircraft produced the cost benefit/utility analysis, which was a quantification of military benefits and what they cost. The cost benefit/utility analysis reflects the quantification of benefits with respect to their costs. The Austrian Air Force was looking for the maximum capability at the best price, or the ‘best bidder’.

Austriam-Audit.jpg



But the unit price for the Eurofighter Typhoon wasn’t necessarily lower than that of the Gripen. What the court validated was the judgment of the MoD that the offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon was more attractive, considering the payment model being offered for the performance criteria matched by the aircraft. While the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was higher than that of Gripen if payment were made on delivery or over ten half-yearly installments, the cost and utility analysis of the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was a little less than Gripen’s quote, if payments were made in 18 half-yearly installments.



What’s also interesting is that the offer made by the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium for 24 aircraft by payment on delivery wasn’t all that much higher than the offer made by Gripen (the order was later reduced to 18, and then, 15 aircraft). This, in spite of the fact that the engine in a fighter is often considered to make up around one-third of the value of the aircraft.

But at the same time Jane’s has reported a different scenario in the ongoing Romanian process for acquisition of 24 fighter aircraft, with Saab ready to offer 24 new Gripen aircraft at a cost of EUR 1 billion, against 24 second-hand Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft (and also, 24 second-hand F-16 aircraft) being offered at the same price.

It must be noted the costs considered by the Austrian Air Force and Ministry of Defense were not life-cycle costs, as India is going to adjudge. The costs are the offers made for the aircraft, in addition to weapons systems and other support systems. Nor does the report mention the performance criteria which were weighed in tabulating the cumulative military benefits of both aircraft. Each performance criteria may also be weighed differently and indeed, Indian requirements may well be very different.

But at the stage of consideration of the commercial bids, will the ministry also look at issues such as the opportunity cost in the event of a crash of one of these aircraft? “If a single-engine aircraft loses an engine, say in the event of a bird hit, the IAF loses the aircraft and possibly also the pilot. If a twin-engine aircraft loses an engine, the IAF loses an engine, which can be replaced,” says the representative of another vendor in the contest. But single-engine fighter aircraft vendors claim that engines in current twin-engine aircraft have very few failure modes that allow an engine to run in case the other fails and that they are so closely fitted that an engine down due to bird hit or weapon strike would probably result in an explosion, causing the other to malfunction.

Most aircraft in the MMRCA competition are fairly recent developments and do not have an operational history lengthy enough to get an idea of their reliability in terms of the number of their engines.

The United States Air Force (USAF) figures tabulating engine-related Class A mishaps for single-engine and twin-engine aircraft tell an interesting story. Class A mishaps are those where the total cost of damage is $1 million or more, and/or involves destroyed aircraft, and/or fatal injury, and/or permanent total disability. The USAF Air Safety Center has tabulated charts up to March 31, 2010 and, in general, the rate of engine-related Class A mishaps is higher in single-engine combat aircraft than in twin-engine aircraft.

From 1972 to last December, the F-15 had chalked up 5,783,436 flight hours. In this time, 140 of these aircraft suffered Class A mishaps with 118 aircraft destroyed and 50 people killed, including 43 pilots. Since 1975 to December 2009, the F-16 had flown 9,217,670 hours, suffering 339 Class A mishaps, with 309 aircraft destroyed and 116 people killed, including 80 pilots.

The USAF Air Safety Center has put together statistics for engine-related Class A mishaps of F-16 aircraft running on four different engines and F-15 aircraft running on three different engines. Two engines are common to both aircraft. According to these statistics, the F-16 has suffered 70 engine-related Class A mishaps after 6,408,377 Engine Flight Hours running on the four different engines (not counting the record of the aircraft running on the F100-PW-200 engine), while the F-15 has suffered 31 engine-related Class A mishaps after 11,409,530 Engine Flight Hours on the three engines listed.

When comparing the reliability of both aircraft in terms of common engine usage, the F-16 experienced 23 engine-related Class A mishaps after 2,062,376 Engine Flight Hours on the F100-PW-220 engine since 1991. The F-15, powered by the same engines, suffered 9 engine-related Class A mishaps after 3,105,962 Engine Flight Hours, since1989.

The F-15, powered by the F100-PW-229 engine, suffered 4 engine-related Class A mishaps after 859,542 Engine Flight Hours, since 1997. The F-16, running the same engine, suffered zero engine-related Class A mishaps after 244,846 Engine Flight Hours till date.

Lockheed Martin dismisses the idea that these figures indicate single-engine aircraft to be less reliable than twin-engine. Its Director of Advanced Development Programs, Michael Griswold, points out that engines have improved over time and that even the next generation F-35 runs on a single engine and is safe enough to be envisaged for operations off aircraft carriers. He also thinks this kind of comparison between the F-16 and other aircraft isn’t necessarily valid, as they have ‘totally different missions’ and ‘different roles’.

But for the IAF, this comparison may well become relevant considering the variety of aircraft in the MMRCA contest.
 
Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement


f16injw6_138-759375.jpg



Just received this statement from the folks at Lockheed-Martin: "Lockheed Martin continues to be impressed with the disciplined acquisition process being followed by the Indian Air Force and Ministry of Defense. Under this process, as described by the Defense Procurement Procedure, the short list will not be decided until an assessment of compliance with the qualitative requirements is completed by the IAF and MoD. Therefore, any speculation about who is a front runner or who will be short listed is premature. What we do know is the F-16IN Super Viper would bring tremendous capabilities now and for the future to the Indian Air Force and would strengthen the strategic partnership between India and the U.S. and between the Indian Air Force and the United States Air Force."

LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Lockheed-Martin Dismisses Rumours, Issues Statement
 
Now Russian Media reports

BY: RIA Novosti

Russia’s MiG-35 multirole fighter aircraft has failed to make the short-list in a $10 billion international tender for 126 combat aircraft for the Indian air force, according to Indian media reports quoted by Kommersant daily.

The favorites to win the tender are the French Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon, Indian media say.

160139606.jpg


Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), the holding company for most of the Russian aircraft industry, and its fighter subsidiary MiG, have not officially confirmed the reports.

“The official results of the tender have not yet been announced,” said UAC’s Press Secretary Konstantin Lantratov.

“The MiG-35 is not leaving the tender, and I have no official information about this,” said UAC First Vice-President Mikhail Pogosyan.

A MiG source quoted by Kommersant said it was too early to say what the Indians had decided.

“The envelopes with the commercial proposals should be studied by the tender commission only this week,” the source said.

Several sources quoted by the paper listed a raft of problems around the MiG-35 program, including a lack of financing to support it. One source said the lack of state funding to support the program had been noted by UAC President Aleksei Fyodorov as long ago as the end of 2008, but the issue was not resolved.

The MiG-35 is said to be a cheaper aircraft than its rivals but is said to have problems with engine life.

“Time between overhauls should be at least 2000 hours and overall life 4000 hours, but the RD-33 doesn’t meet these parameters now,” said one source.

India already operates the early model MiG-29A fighter aircraft and is taking delivery of the MiG-29K naval fighter, which it will operate from a Russian-built aircraft carrier which is currently under refit.

The selection of two favored aircraft for the Indian tender follows a long trials process, which also involved Sweden’s SAAB Gripen, America’s Lockheed Martin with the F-16, and Boeing’s F-18 Super Hornet, as well as the Russian MiG-35.
 
Xclusive : Air Chief Complains To Antony, MMRCA, Other Deals Delayed Due To Inefficient DOFA, New Body Likely For Offsets !!!

Chindits: Xclusive : Air Chief Complains To Antony, MMRCA, Other Deals Delayed Due To Inefficient DOFA, New Body Likely For Offsets !!!

With a setback in the offset implementation hitting big defence deals, Air Chief Marshal, P V Naik, who is also the Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee, has complained to Defence Minister A K Antony, to intervene and set right the functioning of the Defence Offset Facilitation Agency (DOFA), with the most affected being the Rs 42,000 crore 126 aircraft deal for the IAF (Indian Air Force).

The deal for the 126 MMRCA (meduim multi-role combat aircraft) of the IAF is the first and the only deal so far to have 50 percent offsets, and is mid-way through its processing.

DOFA, under Department of Defence, Ministry of Defence, has come under severe criticism by the MoD and the services for its inefficiency and incompetence in handling offset matters, leading to inordinate delays in finalisation of offset programmes thereby affecting early procurement of defence equipment for the armed forces.

Offsets were introduced in the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) in 2006 for the first time, whereby it was applicable to defence deals costing more than Rupees 300 crore, where 30 percent of the deal shall come back in terms of investment or technology transfer, into India, meaning it was an arrangement to plough back 30 percent cost of the deal in the form of technology transfers or anything similar. But the amended DPP- 2008 clarified that technology transfers could not form part of the offset programme.

Some of the programmes which have been affected due to inability in finalising offsets, are procurement of Survey Target and Towing aircraft, additional Aerostat radars, MICA missiles, additional executive jets for VVIP, and the upgrade of Mirage-2000 aircraft contract.

A source told DNA that, "After the introduction of the offset concept in the defence procurement procedure, the delays caused due to improper handling of the programme has been taken seriously as there are a lot of proposals held up affecting defence modernization."

It is likely that a separate and more powerful body namely Defence Offset Management Wing will be created in the MoD in view of the latest developments, which will ensure timely implementation of offsets.

Joint Secretary Satyajeet Rajan in the MoD heads the DOFA as its Chairman. When DNA tried contacting Rajan, he was unavailable for comments.

Defence Minister Antony, it is learnt, has asked DOFA to immediately look into the matter and resolve it, so as to avoid criticism from the armed forces.
 
It is likely that a separate and more powerful body namely Defence Offset Management Wing will be created in the MoD in view of the latest developments, which will ensure timely implementation of offsets.

Don't you just love government efficiency - their answer to delays is to create yet another layer of bureaucracy :lol:
 
MMRCA: Updates and Developments


Aug 7/10:
India’s Times Now news show reports that the M-MRCA trials will leave only Dassault’s Rafale and EADS’ Eurofighter in the race. We’ll see. Brahmand | Livefist.

July 27/10:
India Today reports on the remaining M-MRCA process. Elsewhere, it echoes nebulous rumors that some of the candidates failed high-altitude testing at Leh:

“After this, the “commercial bids” of each would be opened by the defence ministry mandarins, who will, for the first time, examine the commercial offers made by the companies more than two years ago. For the first time, a new system of costfixing has been introduced that not only takes into account the unit prices but also calculates the ‘life cycle costs’-which takes into account the cost of maintenance and spares for the period, estimated at 40 years, the aircraft would remain operational. On the basis of this, the lowest bidder (L1) would be determined by a commercial negotiation committee headed by an additional secretary of the ministry. The committee will also have members of the service headquarters of the army, navy and air force. They would then conduct price negotiations with the L1 bidder to improve upon the initial offer. Finally, a paper would be prepared for the Cabinet Committee on Security that would have to give its seal of approval and award the contract. It is at this stage, before the contract is awarded, that government-to-government negotiations would be conducted to get the best additional benefits for the country.”

July 21/10:
At Farnborough 2010, HAL and its partners announce a significant piece of equipment for global F-16s. Right now, F-16s can only be refueled via a dorsal refueling boom, but many air forces depend on refueling probes that fit into hose-and-drogue systems, a preference shared by the US Navy. India’s competition requires hose-and-drogue refueling – and now a team of HAL, Lockheed Martin, Flight Refueling Ltd. in the UK, and Israel Aerospace Industries has a solution.

Many F-16s already carry conformal fuel tanks that add lots of fuel, but minimize the associated drag and performance hit. The Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) modifies the right-forward conformal tank to include a pop-out refueling probe, and the system feeds fuel into the fighter directly through the same refuel manifold that a refueling boom would use. This makes CARTS a plug-and-play solution that can be retrofitted to global F-16 fleets, and gives the team a key niche product no matter what choice India makes. Defense World | F-16.NET (incl. picture).

July 16/10:
India’s Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik, tells IANS that the Indian Air Force will sign the contract to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) “within a year,” and that the IAF flight evaluations will be ready by month-end, and submitted to the defence ministry. After that, the sealed bids will be opened and the aircraft will be short-listed for commercial evaluation. India’s Economic Times | Hindustan Times.

India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition
 
Here you go another one....

Pakistan Not Flying UAE Block 60 F-16s, Lockheed Says


F16bankedsunsetLockheedMartin.jpg


Lockheed Martin is denying allegations that Pakistan’s pilots are flying United Arab Emirates (UAE) Block 60 F-16 fighters.

The accusation comes as the downselect for India’s 126-fighter Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program draws closer. Lockheed Martin is offering its Block 60 F-16IN, called Super Viper, in that competition. There is concern in certain circles that in a combat situation, India would not have an advantage if Pakistan is flying the same type of fighter.

“This is highly unlikely,” says Michael Griswold, director of advanced development programs at Lockheed Martin. “We’d have known this ... There is no evidence [of it]. There is an agreement between the U.S. and the UAE that [they] won’t allow that to happen.

“Besides,” he adds, “the Block 50 that Pakistan has is a different plane ... And it takes a lot of training [to fly it]. The Indian air force knows their threats and the Request for Proposals is detailed.”

Meanwhile, the company has received a request for information (RFI) from the Indian navy seeking information on the F-35B short take-off/vertical landing variant, and the C version for carrier operations.

The navy, which plans to build its second indigenous aircraft carrier, is considering catapult launch.

An RFI for the F/A-18 for the navy has also gone to Boeing, according to Vivek Lall, vice president of Boeing Defense Space & Security. Rafale also has been asked to submit a response to the RFI.
 
It will be a good tactic if the MRCA is split between 74 F-16s and 126 Rafale.

F-16s have an advantage over a lot of things.

People say its not advisable since enemy flies it and have knowledge about it more with experience it gained during all these years.

I see, if we get the best F-16s we can also know what the enemy's best fighter jet is capable of and can gain great knowledge about it which is much better than knowing anything significant at all.

Isn't it it better to know the enemy better in a conflict situation.???

Also with the Lockheed Joint ventures and proposal of production line shifting to India, we can choke the manufacturer for preventing further freebees and all by the only non Chinese fighter provider of the enemy.

It can create chaos without much aggression and pressure tactics in future.
 
It will be a good tactic if the MRCA is split between 74 F-16s and 126 Rafale.

F-16s have an advantage over a lot of things.

People say its not advisable since enemy flies it and have knowledge about it more with experience it gained during all these years.

I see, if we get the best F-16s we can also know what the enemy's best fighter jet is capable of and can gain great knowledge about it which is much better than knowing anything significant at all.

Isn't it it better to know the enemy better in a conflict situation.???

Also with the Lockheed Joint ventures and proposal of production line shifting to India, we can choke the manufacturer for preventing further freebees and all by the only non Chinese fighter provider of the enemy.

It can create chaos without much aggression and pressure tactics in future.
a fighter plane is not a toy, U cannot master it overnight. PAF has been flying F-16s for decades , their pilots have 100s of flying hours on these platforms which gives them a huge advantage. Also F-16 has a very old airframe, no matter how many upgrades u do u cannot change the airframe significantly. IAF is looking for a bird which has a huge potential for upgrade in future and not a spentout (yet potent though) force like F-16
 
a fighter plane is not a toy, U cannot master it overnight. PAF has been flying F-16s for decades , their pilots have 100s of flying hours on these platforms which gives them a huge advantage. Also F-16 has a very old airframe, no matter how many upgrades u do u cannot change the airframe significantly. IAF is looking for a bird which has a huge potential for upgrade in future and not a spentout (yet potent though) force like F-16

It is same and applicable for EF and any other new fighters we will be buying.. so ur point is not that important. And we already have Su-30MKI's and the second half ( Split MRCA) fighter for supremacy.
 
“Besides,” he adds, “the Block 50 that Pakistan has is a different plane ... And it takes a lot of training [to fly it]. The Indian air force knows their threats and the Request for Proposals is detailed.”

What is this supposed to mean??!!
 
What is this supposed to mean??!!

That means that we know what kind of aircraft we need and thats based on our existing inventory and doctorine.
 
That means that we know what kind of aircraft we need and thats based on our existing inventory and doctorine.

Sounds more like we know what kind of aircraft enemy has (threat!) and RFI has details of countermeasures required!!
Must be my imagination..
 
when official declaration is expected for shortlisted contenders ?
 
when official declaration is expected for shortlisted contenders ?

Well bro here is something for you!!

India's MMRCA jet selection to be completed by year end

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has submitted a report on the trials it has conducted on six combat jets it is evaluating for an order for 126 aircraft and expects the selection of the fighter within a year.
The IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, is quoted by India Strategic defence magazine (..:: India Strategic ::.. Home Page: The authoritative monthly on Defence and Strategic Affairs.) as saying that the exhaustive field evaluation trials (FET) report covered all the aircraft in contention, and that once the selection has been made, he expected the chosen jet to be in service within three years, say by 2014.
Naik also disclosed that after completing the combat jet trials, the IAF had also completed the field trials of utility helicopters and combat helicopters. The trials of the heavy-lift helicopters were, meanwhile, in the final phase.
‘The next four years are crucial but by 2014, IAF would have all the new aircraft and helicopters well in place as part of its transformation process now underway,’ India Strategic quotes Naik as saying in its coming issue.

Each system is being acquired along with its training simulators.
As for the combat jet selection process, the air chief gave no indication as to how each of the six aircraft in the fray performed during the trials. He only observed that the IAF had completed its assignment and submitted the report to the defence ministry July-end – on time as promised.
The Russian Mig-35 (initially designated Mig-29M2), Europe’s Eurofighter Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen, the French Rafale, and the US Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper are in the fray. The IAF tender is for 126 aircraft with an option for 63 more.
As for the combat helicopters, Naik said that both the Russian
Mi-28 and US Boeing Apache AH 64D had been tested in India. Some weapon trials are due to be conducted in the country of origin. The IAF had issued a request for proposal for 22 combat helicopters to replace its ageing Soviet vintage Mi-35s.
Trials of Boeing’s Chinook CH 47F heavy-lift helicopter had also been completed, while that of Russian Mi-26 were likely to be held this month. The IAF needs 15 heavy-lift helicopters to replace and augment its ageing fleet of half-a-dozen obsolete Mi-26s acquired in the mid-1980s.
Trials of the utility helicopters, needed both for the IAF and the Indian Army, are also over. The Eurocopter Fennec 555 and Russia’s Kamov 226 are the two contenders. The two services have tendered for a combined order of 197 helicopters.
All aircraft and helicopters are required to operate in the varied hot, humid, desert and high altitude environment of India, particularly to support the deployments in the Himalayan region.
The IAF wants to minimize its inventory of its flying machines to reduce their maintenance costs on the one hand and to increase their operational availability on the other.
Naik said that appropriate infrastructure and communication nodes were also being created as part of the IAF’s transformation process now underway.
The IAF aims to have 45 combat squadrons – approximately 800 aircraft – by 2022. Of these, it is already set to acquire more than 270 Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance aircraft from Russia. These include 42 aircraft being ordered through India’s state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which is making the aircraft under the licence and transfer of technology (ToT) routes

Latest Defence news: India's MMRCA jet selection to be completed by year end
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom