Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[KEETARP]

believe what you want, but I see the facts and they are that Rafale is the most developed and ready fighter from Europe, which will be available with all capabilities that are on offer for us, at least 2-3 years before EF, or Gripen NG.

Europe is not the only one participating .
I don't get the point ,
when myself+DBC+others have shown Rafale is immature still you ..........

They will, but that was not the point! You asked me about advantages that the Rafale has in the strike role over F18SH, so it doesn't make sense to bring up those fighters in now

What does the Source code have to do with strike power / range ??
Do you still deny F18 has better weapon+Range+Fuel than Frenchie

Mig 35 has no cruise missile and can only carry limited heavy A2G loads

and you write in your next post

I know it and instead of beliving a picture only, I looked up the specs on the official Mikoyan site some time ago, which states:
Quote:
A-S" missiles:
- anti-ship 4хKh-31A, Kh-35E 4хKh-31A, Kh-35E
- anti-radar 4хKh-31P 4хKh-31P
Guided bombs 4хKAB-500Kr 4хKAB-500Kr
- MiG-29K/KUB

Instead of claimimg Mig35 can't carry any cruise missile , you should have checked whether KH-35 is a cruise missile or not .

You should have checked this thread by Ironman
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...advanced-technology-but-funding-required.html

It's not MIG/IAF problem that you don't believe in that Mig29K pick with X-59 cruise missile . Its a part of package offered by Mig displayed in picture . Not sure what Eurofighter has to do here .

I showed you the difference about range before and you didn't even disagree then, so why now? Gripen NG is in the same medium class as F18SH (otherwise it wouldn't be in the competition), only on the opposite ends.

Whether yo like or hate Gripen , that dosen't change the fact.
Comparing F18 twin seater to single engine Gripen is like Apple to orange , completely different class .
Gripen is lightest aircraft second only to tejas ........... while F18 is .............

Actually 5 draws and only 1 loss, which is more than impressive for such a small fighter, that is often claimed to be an underpowered fighter bomber only. I posted it here before!

I posted that already , Rafale did loose unlike that B.S article of Air-Cosmos claiming F22 loosing to Rafale .

These will help them in the strike role for example and as I asked you before, from IAF point of view, for this role, wouldn't it be better to have 2 frontline fighters that offers different capabilities and weapons for such a role?
You never answered it, because you the that it's true, that Rafale offers what MKI don't have and the other way around too. Be it capabilities of the fighter, weapons, or techs, they would suit perfectly.

I replied F18 much better , F16 is excellent in SEAD , Gripen can do whatever IAF asks
We are talking of Indian threats not like bombing Pacific .
All of them are good modern machines nothing unique in Rafale .

And that's exactly what I meant! Be honest please, would you take a source for Rafale to account that is sponsored by the French forces?

Show us certification of RCS like below

I would be first one to acknowledge , but something like this ???

4 claims 4 times wrong! I agreed from the begining that the Rafale has no ARM, not because it doesn't integrated it yet, but because they use a different strategy in that role. I didn't even said that's the the better way, I only showed you that firing missiles preemptive is also not the solution and that's why the Europeans are thinking about other ways too.
Again I said from the begining that not only the weapons are costly, but the cost in general is the downside of the Rafale.
HMS, again I said it before that it don't has it integrated yet. Topsight was tested on Rafale, but the French forces wanted another HMS from Sagem, which was not integrated now.
And again I told you that MICA has less range than AIM 120, but that is not the point in BVR engagements, there are several factors that you have to take to accound. I even proved it with sources that a Rafale with MICA was able to beat opponents with AIM 120s.
But that is typical for this discussion, we were talking about detection with strike loads and suddenly you jumped to BVR engangements, I proofed that missile range alone is not the point and again you jump to missiles against Erieye, which has nothing to do with what we wear talking initially.

So you finally admit some drawbacks of Rafale
No HMS
NO ARM
Hugely expensive + more expensive weapons
but still don't accept MICA lacks behind AIM120 , strange .

but not that all EWS uses Inferometric techs. Again just a get into conclusion too fast.

What
, did you even bother to see Directional Finding capability on official brochure of Eurofighter .

Left side second point ,

Plus I have shown F16,F18 can cue weapons .

I was correct ,When you claimed
Only Rafale gives Passive detection - Proven wrong (All)
Only Rafale gives 360 coverage - Proven wrong (All)
Only rafale has Situational awareness - Proven wrong (All except Mig)
Only Rafale has Enhanced Situational awareness - Proven wrong ("")
Only Rafale has capability to cue weapons - Wrong (F16+F18)

I mean even you said now that Rafale can fire MICA and AASM via Spectra, which means to air and ground targets. But the only EWS that could do similar seems to be the F16 B60, because it uses the techs for locatating and targeting

Since you accept F16 has such thing , Your line only explains what i said above , when you claimed unique for Rafale - I showed you F16+F18
And Eurofighter have ESM to find and locate target co-ordinates .
See the brochure above
And the link i showed
But because of your bias you failed to see that every Eurofighter will use wide weapons unlike Rafale where MICA and AASM are cue specific .
Integrating IRIS-T + ASRAAM both requires .......... Leave it . You won't get

 

[indushek]

Its really a nice thread, 2 guys sharing their knowledge and thoughts abt MRCA, but guys have some soft words while correcting each others instead of using "little" harsh words.

But to be honest we mostly enjoying this thread. Keep up the good work with sharing knowledge with source.

Bro what are u trying to convey?? u quote my words and praise the two!!! did u want to negate my words if so u can address me directly. If not why to quote me??

 

[KEETARP]

This is for guys who get turned on by F15SE , i have seen many ----

Ongoing FARN10 - Boeing shows new version of F18E offered to customers

CFT+Enclosed........................

May be few more votes to F18 now

 

[SQ8]

The CFT's look neat.. but the weapons pod reminds me of japanese manga.

 

[jha]

 

[CONNAN]

The best thing for India to do would be to go with two manufacturers. The two manufacturers being Boeing
for building strategic partnership and EF for technology transfer. In my opinion India should go for 250 aircraft, 125 from each manufacturer. With the duel supplier route India would have leverage in case of a squeeze play from any manufacturer.

I know money would be an issue; however present Indian economy can and will support the cost. With roughly 300 SU30 MKI’s, 250 MRCA, and about 250 Tejas aircraft, IAF would be in good position to castrate the northern neighbors and perform circumcision on the western neighbors without anesthesia. Due to India’s bad neighborhood, such a insurance policy is required.

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 PM ----------

According to defence analysts and news reports , it is estimated that India will be spending about 100 Billion dollars on defence deals. Keeping that in mind - if we are spending 30 B dollars on just aircraft acquisition, then what will we do about other defence deals !! IMO MoD will not go for the deal if its overtly expensive as is the case with EF or Rafale !!

 

[sancho]

Just in short, because most of it was allready answered from me before and only those related to the topic, the rest via PM.

Instead of claimimg Mig35 can't carry any cruise missile , you should have checked whether KH-35 is a cruise missile or not

So providing the official Mig site as a source is claiming for you? Also now you claim Kh 35 is a cruise missile, although it is an anti ship missile? Its counter parts in the west are Harpoon and Exocet, so by far not comparable with cruise missiles.

You should have checked this thread by Ironman

It's not MIG/IAF problem that you don't believe in that Mig29K pick with X-59 cruise missile . Its a part of package offered by Mig displayed in picture . Not sure what Eurofighter has to do here .

I read that post before and it says:

At Aero India 2007, RSK MiG advertised the MiG-35 as able to carry 3M-14AE, air-launched version of the 2275kg baseline cruise missile with firing range of 235km. The fighter is offered to the Indian air force MMRCA tender with these missiles in the package.

That is what they do with EF and all the weapons too! They advertise it with a lot of weapons, but the reality as we all know is pretty different and not even half the weapons that could be possible, are integrated.
As you can also see, the article talks about air-launched club missiles, but the whole part about Kh 59 doesn't mention Mig 29, or Mig 35 at all.
So far, no Mig 29 can carry any cruise missile as the Mig site proves, what is shown on air shows might be possible, but depends on integration and who will pay for it. By the time it could be available, Brahmos will be available for Flankers and as the Irkut CEO said on the Defexpo a smaller version is already under developent.

 

[sancho]

So, now to the real interesting news from today!

Eurofighter Firms to Fund AESA Development for 9 Months

By TOM KINGTON, FARNBOROUGH, UK

Eurofighter GmbH, the industrial consortium that builds the Typhoon fighter, will “pre-finance” the initial development of the AESA radar the aircraft badly needs for export campaigns, but only until next March, CEO Enzo Casolini said at the Farnborough Air Show on July 20.

Eurofighter is hoping that the consortium’s partner nations, Britain, Germany, Italy, and Spain, will then put up the money to keep the development on track to have a radar ready for potential buyers such as India.

Casolini pointed to a protocol of interest signed by the procurement offices of the four nations in May “in which they state they have a requirement and will commit as soon as possible.”

Asked if declining defense spending in Europe might yet scupper AESA investment plans, he replied, “This is fundamental for weapons systems. We are not putting flowers on the airframe.”

The development work is being undertaken by Euroradar, the consortium led by Italy’s Selex Galileo and including EADS and Spain’s Indra. Euroradar also worked on the mechanically scanned Captor radar now used on the aircraft.

Euroradar plans to use the existing back end of the aircraft’s radar, as well as existing cooling and power systems, then add new e-scan transmit and receiver modules. The modules would be delivered in 2013 for test flights that year, with entry into service in 2015.

“The 2015 schedule is needed to match the Indian requirement,” said Casolini, although officials did not rule out India receiving a first batch of Eurofighters with mechanically scanned radars that could be later upgraded.

The plan is complicated by the fact that the UK this year started its own e-scan development program with Selex Galileo, using Selex TR modules, which also envisages test flights in 2013. Casolini said the two paths being followed by the UK could merge.

“The UK agreement has now been changed to the four nation agreement,” he said.

“But if some nations have different requirements it will be possible to allow diversity,” he said.

“The two will come together,” said Euroradar chairman Andrew Cowdery.

Officials said that if the four-nation development was successful, one common TR module would be used by the partners for their radars, manufactured at a single location.

The choice will be based on “where it is cheapest to do so,” said Bob Mason, marketing and sales vice president at Selex Galileo.

Cowdery said the new radar would have the capability of offer electronic warfare functions, “but there is nothing in the protocol about this.”

Cowdery denied that Eurofighter has left it late to start develop of AESA radar, which is now considered a must-have on new fighter jets.

“Others jumped in too early. This radar has the wide field of regard and lightweight TR [transmit-and-receive] modules,” he said.

The radar’s field of view is enabled by a tilted, revolving swash plate on which the modules sit, as opposed to the fixed-plate used on American AESA radars.

Cowdery said maintenance on the swash plate would be slightly higher, “but the minor penalty is worth it,” for the extra functionality.

The new radar would use gallium arsenide in its modules, despite industry predictions that gallium nitride will one day offer higher performance.

“Gallium arsenide will not be beaten on cost,” he said. “We will be using it for a long time.”

A senior Italian defense source confirmed that Italy was behind the AESA initiative.

“We do not have costs or timings yet, and we are viewing this mainly for export at present, but we supporting the concept,” he said. “The problem is how can we transition to it when we have contracts for the Captor radar stretching out to 2016? We cannot throw it away, even if we think AESA will be the final solution.”

Pierfrancesco Francesco, CEO of Italian Eurofighter industrial partner Finmeccanica, said AESA was crucial for export sales of the fighter.

“If Italy decides not to buy all, or part of the Tranche 3B, it is crucial that it follows the example of the UK, which is to push and strongly support export sales to complete the order. And we are all agreed that e-scan radar will make the Eurofighter a lot more competitive in export markets.”

Farnborough 2010 - Defense News Show Scout – Eurofighter Firms to Fund AESA Development for 9 Months


So AESA for EF is cleared now at least from the consortium companies, the partner nations still didn't decide about fundings. The aim is on MMRCA but they can't deliver it on time, even if the development goes through without any delays, which is not likely with the history of delays in that program.

From another article:

The rolling-upgrade path will also likely be seen in how the AESA and weapons are introduced. The initial focus for the radar will be on air-to-air capabilities to support Meteor. About two years later, air-to-ground modes will follow to add Brimstone, Taurus and Storm Shadow ground-attack capabilities, notes a Eurofighter executive. An inverse synthetic aperture radar mode to fire anti-ship missiles would come in another step.

So the AESA in 2015 will only be able to integrate A2A missiles, for A2G missiles, especially the important cruise missiles it is expected only by 2017!

As I said before, when the EF is fully developed, it will be a great 4.5 gen fighter, but sadly way too late and by that time it there will be several 5. gen fighters available!

 

[sancho]

More news from Farnborough:

Gripen NG to fly in for show debut

...To be on view in the static display at the show through Friday, the demonstrator in May returned to Saab's Linkoping site in Sweden after completing a successful evaluation in India, in what was the type's first overseas trip.

The campaign included operating the Gripen NG from Leh air base, requiring aircraft start-up some 10,800ft (3,300m) above sea level.

Saab secured a last-minute approval from the Swedish government to deploy the demonstrator for RIAT and Farnborough. "This gives us the unique opportunity to bring the aircraft to the UK during the Swedish summer holiday break," says Lennart Sindahl, head of the company's Aeronautics business unit.

With the current gap in flight testing, the NG's prototype Raven 1000P active electronically scanned array radar has been removed following the aircraft's return from India, and is now with Selex Galileo in Edinburgh, Scotland. The company will deliver its first pre-production radar to Saab in the third quarter of 2011.

Selex vice-president marketing and sales Bob Mason says the Raven's high-resolution synthetic aperture radar was assessed during the test campaign, along with its air-to-air search capabilities. The Gripen NG is in contention for the Indian air force's 126-aircraft medium multi-role combat aircraft deal, along with the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 and RSK MiG-35.

Saab-led Gripen International says its two-seat demonstrator had flown 175 times before arriving in the UK. Also featuring a more powerful engine, extended-range performance and an expanded range of air-launched weapons, the aircraft made its first flight in May 2008.

FARNBOROUGH: Gripen NG to fly in for show debut


From another articel:

MS21 Version
Saab already has the next major iteration in its sights. The MS21 version is to include a major review of the aircraft’s avionics system, including computers and displays, with the accent placed on handling vastly increased amounts of information at differing security classification levels. The architecture will also to be able to handle new types of sensors.

It is evident that the MS21 will become the JAS 39E/F, and that it will be based closely on the AESA-equipped Gripen NG. Although the exact nature of an “MS21 Gripen” has yet to be defined, it will almost certainly incorporate the more powerful General Electric F414G engine. An avionics development contract was awarded to Saab in May and is expected to lead to a concept evaluation review later this year. Preliminary design reviews will be undertaken next year, leading to full development starting in 2012.

Sweden expects to have the JAS 39E/F in service by around 2017, although it has committed to bring that date forward if Brazil adopts the Gripen so that the customer does not shoulder the burden of fielding a major new version on its own.

So first AESA prototypes in mid 2011, real design of Gripen E/F only by 2012! That shows what I stated yesterday, that too much of the Gripen is still not clear and that's why the specs are changing from time to time and competition to competition.
This was stated in the reports from the Brazilian competition too, which rated the Gripen as high risk, because its mainly on paper now.

 

[jha]

FARNBOROUGH: Boeing reveals F-15 and F-18 fighter development plans ​

Boeing yesterday revealed a number of surprising development efforts in the strike fighter market, including an external weapons bay for the F/A-18E/F and the existence of an in-production product stamped "proprietary".

The briefing appeared staged to showcase Boeing's long-term commitment in the manned fighter market despite losing the Joint Strike Fighter contract nearly nine years ago to Lockheed Martin.

Boeing now anticipates that production of F-15s and F/A-18E/F will continue through the mid-2020s, although both lines are scheduled for shutdown in 2012 and 2015 in the absence of new orders.

After unveiling a package of radar cross-section improvements for the F-15 last year named Silent Eagle, Boeing displayed a package of new enhancements offered as options on new sales of the Super Hornet.

The most visible change is an externally mounted pod mounted on the Super Hornet's centreline hardpoint. The pod is able to carry either a mix of two Mk82-class bombs and two AIM-120 missiles, or four AIM-120 missiles.

The external pod would help to reduce the Super Hornet's radar cross-section by removing missiles and bombs from external hard points.

Unlike the Silent Eagle, which was focused on reducing the F-15E's radar cross-section and updating the electronic warfare system and avionics, the new Super Hornet features are intended to provide a broader spectrum of improvements, says Shelley Lavender, Boeing vice-president and general manager of global strike systems.

Boeing also plans to offer other upgrades for the Super Hornet, including conformal fuel tanks and an infrared search and tracking system.

Beyond the F-15 and F-18 product lines, Boeing sees a bright future in the strike fighter market. As the supplier for the Lockheed F-22's operational flight programme, Boeing is deeply involved in the US Air Force's upgrades roadmap for that aircraft. Meanwhile, the US Navy is asking contractors to bid for a carrier-based unmanned aircraft system that could be deployed in 2018.

Both the USN and US Air Force are also starting the process of defining their needs for a next generation air dominance fighter that would begin after 2025 to replace the Super Hornet and F-22.

Boeing's Lavender also showed a chart to reporters that included a new product that enters production this year, but was marked only "proprietary". Asked to elaborate and clarify the new product or products, Lavender repeatedly declined.

 

[jha]

So, an external pod with 4 AIM-120s...the capacity of SH seems to overlapping with Su-30...

 

[sancho]

So, an external pod with 4 AIM-120s...the capacity of SH seems to overlapping with Su-30...

Mh instead of 4 smaller AIM 120 on the wings, one bigger pod on the centerline station, it should depend on the shaping of the pod if it really reduced the RCS don't you think? I think the F15 SE CFTs with internal weapon bays should be better.

 

[jha]

Mh instead of 4 smaller AIM 120 on the wings, one bigger pod on the centerline station, it should depend on the shaping of the pod if it really reduced the RCS don't you think? I think the F15 SE CFTs with internal weapon bays should be better.

No doubt that is better..however any improvement is good for us..
Even though they are claiming that RCS has reduced , i dint think this will make that much difference..
Lets see what more they can do on this..

 

[Nishan_101]

Briefing: Fighter club (that's the forum name)

India

In India the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) continues to make gentle progress towards entering service, nearly 30 years after it was conceived. Led by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the programme was launched in 1983 after several years of study but the first LCA only flew in 2001. Since then the LCA has made halting progress as various aircraft, systems and engine development issues have been dealt with.

A 2006 order called for 20 aircraft (plus 20 options) to be powered by General Electric's F404 in place of the intended indigenous Kaveri turbofan. The first production aircraft flew in June 2008 and the first Tejas unit was expected to declare initial operating capability this year. The F404 is now competing with Eurojet's EJ200 for a future LCA engine contract.

India has a co-operative agreement with Russia to work on the PAK-FA programme with a view to adopting that aircraft as its next-generation fighter. At the same time the DRDO is working on a separate future fighter concept under the stealthy Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme.

INTERNATIONAL FIGHTER COMPETITIONS

The fighter market is at something of a high-water mark, with several major procurement efforts under way. Although the global financial crisis has halted some planned purchases, particularly in Eastern Europe, many other air forces are maintaining their momentum. These include:

The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for the Indian Air Force (IAF). Initial buy of 126 aircraft to replace MiG-21 and others. Follow-on licensed production expected to take that number to 200-300 platforms. Competitors: Boeing Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16IN, Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG MiG-35, Saab Gripen NG. IAF has completed aircraft evaluations. Possible down-select to shortlist of three expected this year. Possible type selection in 2011.
For Indians
Nishan_101 is online now Report Post Edit/Delete Message

 

[marcos98]

BAD NEWS FOR EF2000

Italy to axe Eurofighter orders

FARNBOROUGH, England, July 20 (Reuters) - Italy upset Europe's defence industry on Tuesday by announcing plans to axe its share of the final production run of the Eurofighter combat jet at the Farnborough air show where foreign rivals were showcasing their own jets.

The unexpected announcement by one of four nations involved in the project highlighted the pressures being put on European defence budgets and came hours after reluctant arms firms agreed to cough up the funds to develop a new radar for the plane to boost exports.

"We have decided to cut 25 Eurofighters with a saving of 2 billion euros," Italian defence minister Ignazio la Russa told reporters at the air show in southern England.

Italy, Britain, Germany and Spain ordered a total of 620 Eurofighter jets in the 1990s and split the order into three tranches, each of which needed separate funding approval.

The third tranche of 236 planes was split into two in 2008 when nations were already facing a squeeze on budgets, and manufacturers have been pressing governments to plug the remaining budget gap to avoid having to lay off workers.

La Russa did not say which planes he was referring to but air show delegates said he clearly meant Italy's entire allocation of 25 planes under the final tranche, known as 3B.

This would cut Italy's total Eurofighter order to 96.

"We have no comment because we have received no formal communication," a Eurofighter spokesman said.

Defence reviews and budget pressures have also placed doubts over remaining planes allocated to Italy's three partners.

The Eurofighter is made by an industry consortium of the same name that includes Italy's Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI), Britain's BAE Systems (BAES.L) and EADS (EAD.PA), which represents Germany and Spain.

The group last month submitted an estimated 10 billion-euro offer to supply 124 planes under tranche 3B.

But executives in the consortium are resigned to seeing the number fall as governments cut deeply into defence spending.

"These cuts could be a big problem because if you cut production capacity it is costly to get it back," an executive close to the project said, asking not to be named.

Eurofighter said earlier it would put an unspecified amount into a new radar for the plane together with a specialist radar consortium led by Finmeccanica.

The fighter group said it aimed to have the new actively scanned electronic radar on the multirole aircraft by 2015.

The move and its timing were both designed to position the European plane for a contest to supply 126 fighter jets to India, one of the world's most sought-after defence deals.

The $12 billion Indian tender competition, which could be formally launched next year, is in one of the most hotly contested international defence markets, attracting bidders from the United States, Russia and Europe.