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Of course it is different, because private companies have only comercial interests, while govt owned have political too! In fact many French are not too happy with the Germans, because they develop everything with business in mind and not neccesarily with the needs of the forces.

you are wrong here ,by rule of law , it just not differentate between the shares held by private company or a state govt...

No it's not, we are talking about EADS as the parent company, airbus is only a subsidiary:
it was indeed , france has a share holding in the subsidiary of EADS which engage in menufecturing the AIRBUS ,...
and infect it was this subsidery of EADS only traded on stock exchange and you will be surprise to know that today russian has 6% share in it bought from the open market...what it means that today AIRBUS is 6% owned by russians and they are demanding a seat in the board of directors...

now just in same line , EADS-3SIGMA is another subsidery of EADS , enganged in menufecturing UAVs , and it's between british and greeks only....so if tommoro EADS-3SIGMA comes up to work with indians , you can't say that it's indeed the franch working with indians...

that was my initial objection and topic started when you said :
And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!

I know, but as I said, these shares have no voting rights, that's why EADS has can't intervene in Dassault Aviations policy!

....infect when i own a very small shares of many companies i do got voting right , and do recive a latter whenever the company has to take a decision , so , what i mean to say is that every single share holder has a voting right and his votes are in the proportion of the share he holds..

so coming back to topic , presently , Dassault Aviations today holds 50.2%, they are still in majority to take a decision but it also means they are in no position to dilute their holding anymore to give india any type of offer which the EF is most probably like to make........
 
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you are wrong here ,by rule of law , it just not differentate between the shares held by private company or a state govt...

Yes, there is no difference in the shares, but there is a difference in the interest of share holders! Daimler wants to make business and that the value of the shares increases, France wants to have a key to influence the policy of EADS to their interests, if needed.


it was indeed , france has a share holding in the subsidiary of EADS

Not not only in the subsidiaries, but in the parentalcompany!


infect when i own a very small shares of many companies i do got voting right

No not neccesarily, because not every share has voting rights and for Dassault Aviation that's not the case. It's a family company and they have a focus on remaining independen, that's the only reason I think that they would not offer a partnership on Rafale and withouth the French state and other French companies involved in EADS, they never had sold the shares to them.

Btw, no I am not surprised, I heared about the Russians but they bought their shares on the free market, also there are increased relations between the Europeans and Russians in the aero industry. EADS and IRKUT for example have several JV, the Mi 38 is developed with European companies...

Check this for example:

EADS Irkut \\\\ News
 
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Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 1


According Mr. A. Tellis and his carnegy report and his view on the operational requirements of IAF, the wining MMRCA has to be a multi role aircraft, ...

1) that is equally good in A2A and A2G roles - Advantage Rafale (designed for balanced multi role capabilities, while it's only a secondary aim of EF design)

2) that is highly versatile to fulfill a wide range of missions - Advantage Rafale (the aim was to replace 7 different fighters in their roles and this is already proven in combat!)

3) that has a low RCS, high maximum speed, long range sensor and weapons, as well as a sophisticated EWS for C-AISR missions - Tie (EF is faster and has the better radar, while Rafale has the better general sensors and EWS capabilities

4) that has a variety of PGMs and standoff weapons - Advantage Rafale (Laser, GPS and IR guided PGMs, as well as Scalp cruise missile. Integrated, ready and proven.)

5) that will takeover the main strike role in IAF from older ground attack fighters - Advantage Rafale (all said before)

6) that offers advanced radars with A2G modes, LDPs, superior EWS that enable the fighter to enter the an airspace with a dense SAM threat and is able to fulfill the strike attack in the first pass over - Advantage Rafale (although radar modes might need some improvements, SPECTRA EWS is a big advantage here and the integrated Damocles pod on a dedicated pod station adds even more. The biggest advantage though is that it can attack up to 6 different ground targets in 1 pass over with the AASM and according AFAIK IAF was impressed by this capability during the trials as well!)

7) that offers highly capable direct attack and standoff weapons, for deep penetration strike missions, but not neccesarily dedicated SEAD weapons - Advantage Rafale (AASM is even more capable then the US JDAM, that could be integrated into EF in future, both fighters offer the same cruise missiles, but with different names)

8) that still offers the high maneuverability that IAF requires for the A2A role - Tie (both are highly maneuverable with the delta canard design)

9) that can offer a maritime attack capability for the future - Advantage Rafale (already available with Exocet, EF won't have it, because no customer wants it so far and even the radar is said to have no air to sea mode. Both can be added, but requirers further fundings from us)


Results:

Rafale - 7
EF - 0
Tie - 2


Report: http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-267.html#post1452281



According a chhindits.blogspot report on the MMRCA...

... the RFP, a copy of which is with DNA, the IAF states the following engine combat ASQRs:

1) the MMRCA should have sea-level static thrust-to-weight ration of 1:1 or better with maximum afterburner - Advantage EF (both have TWRs above 1, but EF is better)

2) should be able to carry an external load of atleast 5000 kilograms (comprising air-to-air and air-to ground weapons) - Advantage Rafale (both can carry more than required, but Rafales has 2t more payload and the design is more suited for higher loads)

3) fly for a minimum eight hours with air-to-air refueling - Advantage Rafale (Both fulfill the requirement, but if high endurance patrol, or deep penetration missision, comparable to MKI is the aim, Rafale is more suited with the operational twin seat version and not only a twin seat trainer.)

4) should be a 9G aircraft, Tie

5) the twin-seat trainer should be exactly like the single-seat fighter - Advantage Rafale (EFs twin seat version fulfills the requirements, but is mainly used as a trainer only, while Rafales twin seat version is in operational service, especially in the strike roles).


Results:

Rafale - 3
EF - 1
Tie - 1


Reports: Chindits: MMRCA Update : F-18 Has Underpowered Engine, No One 100% Compliant, Says Report, Vendors Revise Their Prices !!
 
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Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 2


Former Air Marshal B K Pandey pointed out in his analysis "Selection of MRCA for the IAF" (about the intial competition with Mirage 2000-5, F16 B52...):

...Apart from the technological attributes, versatility and operational capability of the machine, they need to bear in mind a number of other important factors such as:

1) assurance of long-term logistic support - Advantage Rafale (Europeans are known in India for quality products and good after sale supports, be it Mirage 2000s, Jaguars, Eurocopter helicopters, or German subs, all with clearly less technical problems and without spare supply issues like Russian counterparts. But the official reports from England about canibalisations of EFs and limited training time for pilots caused by several problems in the spare supply should be a major concern for Indian forces, especially with the recent issue of the BAE Hawk trainer and not supplied toolings)

2) problems of integration with the IAF inventory - Advantage Rafale (there are a few weapons on Jags, that could be used with EF as well, but the the Rafale is based on the Mirage 2000 and shares the full weapon pack and several avionics with it, more over the maintenance routines are based on Mirage as well, which makes it easier for the ground crews as well)

3) technological gains for the Indian aerospace industry - Tie (EFs offer of ToT is very good and the partnership offer gives indian companies the chance to be involved in a big foreign project, which will improve their capabilities. Rafales offer will be very good in ToT as well and the French companies have the advantage of already beeing involved in several JV, co-developments with the Indian industry...)

4) sanctions and denial regimes - Advantage Rafale (all main techs are developed by French companies, no major components comes from the US and can be sanctioned, France has proven to be reliable in the past sanctions, was the first who supported accepted us an official nuclear power and supported us for a permanent UNC seat. French government cleared ToT and no EUM for the Rafale from the start and Dassault was the first who offered radar source codes and full ToT of the radar. Is there anything left how they could prove their reliability to us?

5) financial implications and the nuances of the political dimension - Advantage Rafale (In terms of costs of the deal, the Rafale should have an advantage, it's unit cost is already lower and the EF T3 B requires further fundings of upgrades, that to make it equally capable. With UK as a veto power and Germany as one of the most influential countries in Europe they have a lot o offer on the political side, the problem is their close relation to the US. France on the other hands remained to be an independent country although they are a NATO member and showed in the Libyan conflict how influential they can be, especially by the fact that Qatar and the UAE was ready to send (mainly French) fighters. So although it is only 1 country, the political point is strong and only the US could offer more here from the western countries.


Results:

Rafale - 4
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Reports: Security Research Review: Volume 1(3) Selection of MRCA for the IAF - Air Marshall(r) B K Pandey


Former Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi major said in an interview:

The Air Staff Requirements are secret documents and cannot be revealed. However, I can assure you that the ASRs are designed to be contemporary and futuristic, and also have a cost-benefit angle.

In a generic sense, we want:

1) a medium weight, multi role combat aircraft that can undertake air defence, ground attack, maritime attack (anti-ship) and reconnaissance roles with ease - Advantage Rafale (with 9.5t emptyweight it is the 2nd lightest fighter in the competition, but is able to carry the highest payload. With AESA radar, multi spectra passive sensors, MICA IR, EM and METEOR, it offers 3 weapons for BVR combats, which is a unique capability for air defence. For ground attack it offers Laser and GPS and IR guided bomb kits, as well as cruise missiles, with the latest Reco NG pods, it already is deployed in reconnaissance missions over Afghanistan and Libya, while target aquisition and assessment of strikes can be visually identified with the Damocles pod as well. For maritme attack it uses the Exocet missile and in addition is also deployed is SEAD missions with the SPECTRA / AASM combo)

2) the aircraft to have adequately long range and endurance to meet our operational requirements - Advantage Rafale (it has the higher fuel fraction, has more wet station for fuel tanks and has also bigger fuel tanks)

3) extension of range through air-to-air refueling is also desired - Tie (both fighters can be air refuelled. If at all, one could say Rafale squads are not dependend on refuelling aircrafts, because they can act as mid air refuellers as well, but the requirement is not aimed on that)

4) ease of maintenance and low life cycle costs would form part of the selection criteria - Not rated (all hints shows an advantage for Rafale, very few ground crew are needed, provenly high reliability rates in oversea deploymeants be it in wars, or exercises, reported in Brazil to have slightly higher per hour costs than F18SH, but there are too less infos known about the EF from comparabel competitions to make a fair comparison. From what is known of EF customers like the RAF, German Bundeswehr, or the Austrian air force, operating the EF turned out way costlier than expected and the official reports about difficult spare supply are reasons to worry. But any country rates these costs differently, so only figures from the same evaluation would be a base to compare them)


Results:

Rafale - 2
EF - 0
Tie - 1


Report: ..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Navy: All new MRCA to be purchased from one company



Four different reports, but for all their requirements, the Rafale is clearly the fighter that suits IAF the most!

Feel free to disagree, comment and discuss about it.
 
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OSAMA DEAD KILLED BY CIA STRIKE TEAM ... IN A COMPOUND IN ABBOTABAD NEAR ISLAMABAD(150 KM FROM CAPITAL)....JUST NOW SAW OBAMA'S LIVE SPEECH
 
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OSAMA DEAD KILLED BY CIA STRIKE TEAM ... IN A COMPOUND IN ABBOTABAD NEAR ISLAMABAD(150 KM FROM CAPITAL)....JUST NOW SAW OBAMA'S LIVE SPEECH

pls try to be stick with topic here , make a new thred for new topic

i think u can go through post of few member like sanco, DBC, sparks, kdk ,, ,,,,,,
i hope u wont mind :)
 
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If RAFALE is to be selected, we should scrap the Mirage upgrade order and increase the no. of planes..
 
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So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then? :)


So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....

It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....

free!!!!
did u really meant that.
there is nothing come free in world ,, whenever u are getting free while buying any stuff the price of free stuff already added by many means .. and this applied everywhere
its true that MMRCA is big deal and we have an advantage that we can negotiate to get some advantage
but upgrading our mirage is also not small effort, m2k served very well IAF for long time but now its time to upgrade them otherwise we may have to face situation like we had with mig 21s, if we had upgradtion like bison sooner than we did may be we had some less crash
M2K up gradation will make them more capable new radars, weapon system , cockpits ......... i think except engine everything will be upgraded and doing this for more then 60 fighter jet is long process and desault have to spent a lot of time on that. before saying that they should do it free for us in case mmrca given to them is wrong ,, we must see what level of upgradation we will get
i m sure that some of technologies deleloped for rafale will also put in upgrade (pls correct me if i m wrong)
its sound also good to have new fighter jet with the money we spending on m2k ..... but soon they will start falling due to there age ... and we will start calling them flying coffin
we need to keep running till we will not have the good amount mki mmrca and tejas. now we have almost 150 mki except this 60+ mig 29s (also goin for upgaradation) and m2k
by 2017 we will have 270+ mki 100+ mmrca 60+ lca
without upgarade we cant operate m2k and mig 29 for longer else they will also face situation like other series of mig
another fact we have good experience of operating m2k so in case we need in some operation in soon time ... sometime its better to use proven system or a mixed of new and proven
over all we need them for some more time
so up gradation is only for keep our stranght till we dont get good amount if mmrca and lca.
 
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free!!!!
did u really meant that.
I was just kidding man....we are not able to negotiate the cost of upgrade for Mirage with French, forget about the free...
But serriously the money they are asking for up-gradation is huge....they are trying to make huge profit using the fact that Mirage production line is closed but we should negotiate vigorously, they need this deal very badly and i don't think this deal is more than 1.5 billion $....and we can't upgrade it we should go for Israel....
Also we have 51 Mirage 2k....
 
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Timeline for India’s combat jet deal

Following is the timeline of India’s $10.4-billion tender for 126 advanced combat aircraft, a proposal originally mooted in 2000:

* 2000: Indian Air Force (IAF) conveys to defence ministry its interest in acquiring medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) to replace its ageing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-21s and because of delays in developing the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA).

* 2001: IAF issues request for information (RFI) for 126 combat jets.

* 2003: IAF seeks defence ministry’s permission to buy 50 more French Mirage-2000s to shore up the only MMRCAs in its fleet as a stopgap arrangement. The aircraft had been acquired in the mid-1980s.

* 2004: Defence ministry asks IAF to instead issue a larger MMRCA tender.

* 2005: Defence ministry issues initial MMRCA tender but withdraws it quickly even as it starts receiving responses from vendors.

* 2006: The then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi, flags the dwindling squadron strength of the force. From a sanctioned strength of 39.5 combat squadrons, the IAF is down to 33 squadrons.

* August 2007: India issues the tender for 126 MMRCAs at an estimated cost of $10.4 billion (Rs 46,000 crore).

* February 2008: US majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation, France’s Dassault, European consortium EADS and Sweden’s SAAB submit their bids.

* April 2009: Rumours afloat that Dassault and SAAB are out of the race.

* May 2009: Defence ministry says Dassault and SAAB still in contention.

* April 2010: IAF completes its flight and weapons evaluation of the six contenders on the basis of 643 parameters.

* December 2010: Offset proposals of contenders goes missing; later found on the roadside in south Delhi. The incident threatened to derail the tendering process.

* April 2011: India down-selects EADS and Dassault for the final leg of the contest, rejecting the other four contenders.

The deal is expected to be awarded to either EADS or Dassault by the end of this fiscal March 31, 2012.

Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a ‘fly-away’ condition, with the remaining 108 to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a transfer of technology agreement. The size of the contract could eventually go up to 200 aircraft as there is a provision for increasing the order by 50 percent without any price hike.

The contract includes an offsets clause under which the winning vendor will plough back 50 percent ($5 billion) of the deal amount back in India to energise its defence industry.
 
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French Rafale fires AASM with laser terminal guidance against a high-speed moving target


French defense procurement agency DGA demonstrated AASM modular air-to-ground weapon against a land target moving at high speed. The test was carried out at the DGA’s missile test range in Biscarosse by a production Rafale fighter deployed by the DGA’s flight-test center in Cazaux. The AASM was fired from an extreme off-axis angle (90°) at a range exceeding 15 kilometers.
The impact was at a very low angle, against a moving target represented by a laser spot generated by a ground illuminator mounted on a turret, to simulate a vehicle moving at a speed of 80 km/h. Using its algorithms for detection and slaving of the trajectory to the laser spot, plus its excellent maneuverability, the AASM hit its target to within less than one meter.

This firing test demonstrates the AASM Laser’s ability to offer 1-meter accuracy against high-speed, agile land or maritime targets. Coupling this performance with its standoff firing capability, the AASM is unrivaled in the market for tactical air-to-ground weapons
http:///wa/french-rafale-fires-aasm...ance-against-a-high-speed-moving-target/3255/
 
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The Indian MoD shortlisted the Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon.
A Commentary by Dr. Ezio Bonsignore, Editor-at-Large

07:08 GMT, May 4, 2011 defpro.com | Anyone even remotely familiar with the vagaries and complexities of Indian defence procurement will be only too aware of the risks involved with commenting on the results of a major competition there before the relevant contract has been signed and has entered into force (as well as, on a number of occasions, even after that). But even with a prudent attitude, it is nowadays clear that the Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon have been shortlisted as the two final contenders in the Indian Air Force’s multi-billion-dollar MMRCA competition for the procurement (mostly through licence construction) of 126 latest-generation multi-role fighter aircraft.

Such a choice in principle obvious entails truly monumental strategic and political implications for the future of India as a whole, the more so in that it implies rejecting the Russian (MiG-35) and most particular the American offers (F-16, F/A-18). These implications will most certainly provide food for thought to commentators and analysts for many months to come. This column is however focused on a not-so-collateral aspect, namely on what the Indian choice tells us about the respective characteristics and performance of the some of the world’s leading fighter designs, competing against each other on the global defence market.

The Indian Air Force has carried out an extremely stringent and detailed competitive evaluation process, extensively testing the six competitors (Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen, MiG-35, F-16, F/A-18) and assessing them against each other on a list, that included some 650 parameters. It is highly dubious whether any other air force in the world ever had the chance to perform a similar process, thus gaining a detailed, first-hand knowledge of the respective strong points and shortcomings of the best combat aircraft money can buy. And at the end of this technological evaluation process, two European designs have emerged as the best of the best.

The key point to be underlined here is that the Rafale and the Typhoon have been downselected ’on technical and operational grounds alone’, that is, even before discussions and negotiations on price, technology transfer and offset are to start. This on the one hand implies that it is perfectly feasible for such discussions and negotiations to eventually fail, leading to the competition being reopened (hence, the need for a prudent attitude). But on the other hand, the conclusion is inescapable: the latest and most capable European fighter aircraft are vastly superior – in terms of design and overall performance _ to everything the US industry can currently offer. They are so superior, in fact, that after having tested them a discerning customer would not even bother to ask for the price of the American competitors. And this is so, despite both the F-16 and F/A-18 boasting the significant advantage of an arguably more advanced and most certainly way more mature combat system, including at its top a second-generation fully operational AESA radar as against European prototypes.

This situation, with the likes of the Rafale and Typhoon having no real export-cleared US counterpart, has nothing to do with the capabilities and technological level of the respective aerospace industries. Rather, it is linked to the choice of the timing for the launch of the development programmes for new-generation combat aircraft on the two sides of the Atlantic, as well with the US decision to go for an uncompromising stealth approach which, just because brilliantly successful must remain the exclusive equipment of the US Air Force.

The perception of such a significant “commercial capability gap”, whereby the US will progressively become less and less able to beat off the European (and Russian) competition on the global market for combat aircraft until the F-35 becomes fully operational and credible, is not a new development. Indeed it surfaced a dozen years ago if not even earlier, and it has been the main rationale for the unprecedented decision to launch the JSF programme as a “multi-national project” – the undeclared but only too evident goals being to drain European financial resources, that would otherwise be invested in the further development of European designs, as well as lure at least some countries into taking a blind commitment towards eventually acquiring an aircraft, of unknown performance and at an unspecified price.

But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon. The competitors are, to put it mildly, a second-best choice.

It would be very interesting to watch whether this message will reverberate on other procurement decisions ahead – at least in countries, that can afford to say “no, thanks” to Washington.


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Dr. Ezio Bonsignore, Editor-at-Large

defence.professionals | defpro.com
 
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But not everybody has fallen into the JSF trap, and there still are countries left that would rather select their new combat aircraft after taking a very close look at their performance first, before moving to discuss the price. The (preliminary) results of the Indian MMRCA competition tell the world that if you want the best, and your pockets are deep enough, with the F-22 out of the fray and the F-35 still years away, you will want to go for either the Rafale or the Typhoon.

i like the above lines in the article
 
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