Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[tushar]

but in a reguler bidding Rafale has a higher chance of winning as EF is more expensive on intial cost as well as maintanence cost , adding to a higher life cycle cost....but if the cost negotiating commete takes the equity swap amount into account on partnership offer from EF ,then the EF will became the L1 bidder...

Yeah its true but i think if we could manage a somewhat similar deal with french it would be far more superior for us....
Rafale cost way too less than EF

We don't have to spend too much on infrastructure and training of ground crew and maintenance...

The above two points will definitely reduce the operating cost....

PLus ToT and source code availability technically place Rafale way ahead of typhoon...

Now with both its sure that we will something around 5 billion$ return in the form of offsets....but the advantage with EF is that our companies will continue to produce those components even for future tenders of EF while in case of Rafale our companies will produce components for our deal only...

Now its true that our companies will definitely benefit through EF deal for long term but its a huge gamble as due to high cost further sale of EF is in dark...what if EF couldn't bag any more deal after MMRCA ??

On the other hand we can use this option to bargain with France although France has already said that this won't just be buyer seller deal...lets hope we could get similar deal with rafale because if selected in MMRCA,Rafale will definitely make through Brazilian tender....

More importantly could be a team up with Dassault for AURA UCAV, which dramatically would boost our UAV developments as well.

Dassault has already said that they will help in whatever way India wants them to help when RFI was issued last year for UCAV but our government will have to approach...but yeah we can't be part of Neuron project but we can purchase them...

 

[udiptoghsh]

M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?​

The sealed commercial bids of the six competitors in the Indian M-MRCA fighter competition expire tomorrow. I spoke to officials at the six competing companies said they hadn't heard from the government, and were clueless about what happened next. So in under 36 hours, one of the following should happen:

1. The government will in all likelihood asks the six vendors to extend the validity of their commercial bids (though it hasn't asked them at least until the time this post goes on). In the first week of April, the government asked the six vendors to submit revised technical offsets bids. Tomorrow at midnight, the bids expire. In the past, requests for extensions have been provided with fair advance notice. This time, it's 36 hours and the vendors still haven't heard from the government. Foreseeing this eventuality, the vendors have probably kept their paperwork ready for the validity extension. Either way, the government can always ask for the extension after the bids expire, so this deadline isn't really a DEAD-line. Phooey.

2. If procedure permits, the government only requests those found technically compliant to extend the validity of their commercial bids for onward negotiations, and allows the others' bids to expire. An implicit down-select if you will.

3. The government announces its legendary explicit down-select -- fat chance of that happening.

4. The government cancels the M-MRCA tender. Yeah, right.

Livefist: M-MRCA Commercial Bids Expire Tomorrow, What Now?

it surely is a news of great concern..and thanks a lot SPARK for bringing the issue up infront of us...they deal has already been through an extreme long process...due to the lathargic work by the MoD...and many other beaurcratic peoples in india....!!!
1.BUT THE GOOD NEWZZ IS THAT...MMRCA COMPETITION...IS IN ITS LAST PHASE...AND THE ONLY THING LEFT TO EVALUTE IS THE LOWEST BIDDER AMONG THE TOP TWO COMPETITORS WHO ARE LEFT IN THE COMPETION..EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON....AND DASSAULT RAFALE.
2.THE WINNER THATS GONNA WIN WILL DEFINATELY BE THE BEST 4.5TH GENERATION FIGHTER..IN THE WORLD TODAY...CAUSE EVERY COMPETITORS HAD BEEN EVALUATED IN 600 DIFFERENT CONDITIONS..WAYS...WAR LIKE SITUATIONS...ETC...(which takes hell lot of time
)AND THE WINNER HAS TO WIN OVER OTHER COMPETITORS(now left only eurofighter typhoon and dassault rafale) IN ALL OF THESE 600 DIFFERENT TYPES AND WAYS OF CONDITION..SO THE WINNER WILL BE THE BEST 4.5TH GENERATION FIGHTER IN THE WORLD....!!!
3.ya may be the MoD has taken tooooooooo a long time to choose the winner....but one thing we have to keep in mind that these are critical deal...and if the queries and agreements are not understood well now...it may create problems in the long run when the fighters actually gets inducted in indian air force...another thing..these fighters are goin to secure our skies for the coming 30-35 years....so its very important to judge every competitor keenly..which takes hell lot of time....SO THE DELAY IS OKAY.IF WE WERE TO SEE THE benefits we r going to get later...!!!!
4.and another thing is that of cost escalation of the deal from 10bn usd.....to somewhere near 13bn usd....at the end of the deal...!!!
but still we got to say ourselves that...where in a country where corrupt politicians..nd beauracrats are looting around 70LAKH CRORE INR....NEARLY ABOUT 2.1 TRILLION USD...A LITTLE JUMP OF COST OF 3 BN USD FOR SUCH AN IMPORTANT DEAL LIKE MMRCA..IS JUST OKAY...CAUSE ITS GONNA SECURE OUR SKIES FOR THE COMING 30-35 YEARS..WITH COMPLETE SUPERIORITY AGAINST ANY 4.5TH GEN FIGHTERS IN THE WORLD..CAUSE THE WINNER OF THE COMPETITION IS GONA BE THE BEST 4.5TH GEN FIGHTER AIRCRAFT OF THE WORLD...(after the winner is selected frm all other competitors..which has to be on top of every criteria and demands of the IAF...BY EVALUATING THEIR PERFORMANCE IN 600.........600.....600..DIFFRENT WAYS)....

 

[luckyyy]

And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!

france owned 15% shares in EADS with a 22.5% voting rights , germans owned 15% too , but there were talk that germans like to reduce their holding to 7.5%, even spain own 5% dispite a opposition from france ,all it means that france has a saying in the company buy not the deciding voice..
but here we are talking of EUROFIGHTER , and EADS owned 43% shares in eurofighter venture though CASA and DASA...CASA is spanish agency and DASA is german agency ,( the rest 57% owned by the british BAE and the italians ) so , what that means , that in respect of Eurofighter , the franch has no holding...
but in other side , EADS has a holding in Dassault ....you know what it means , that if india managed to get into EADS , they can actually make Dassault to upgrade mirage fighters at a competitive price ....


and i could see a share swap agreement coming out in MMRCA deal with the four nation consortum , EADS and the HAL , intresting to know that HAL also planing a IPO to hit the stock market in coming month....

 

[Manticore]

And EADS is? Exactly, half French and even the French government has shares!




Hi, there is no official statement from the GoI, or MoD AFAIK, maybe because there are still negotiations behind closed doors. There were reports that the US government will reply to the shortlisting, so who knows if that will change things again, but I am surprised that the F18SH wasn't shortlisted at least to have more options to bargain with the Europeans.
According the RFP, only 18 fighters will be delivered by the wining vendor, while the rest must be produced in India. However, it is possible that the order could be increased, which could increase the number of fighters from Europe as well.
The first squadron is said to be inducted in 2014, while licence production should start in 2015. If Rafale would win, both could start earlier, because it will be ready and available since next year and Dassault offered fast production of up to 40 fighters if we want and the training is dependent on these dates.
The design of both will remain the same, unless we don't integrate CFTs, which both have on offer. At the electronic and avionic fields things will be different, because they will have AESA, latest passive detection features and EW systems (SPECTRA is clearly in front here), HMS cleared for EF and optional for Rafale, also both are expected to get METEOR BVR missile, as well as new A2G weaponary and here the Storm Shadow / Scalp cruise missile should be the most important weapon!

thanks sancho
so ultimately j10b [if still on track] and rafale induction would start somewhat in the same time frame

 

[sancho]

france owned 15% shares in EADS with a 22.5% voting rights , germans owned 15% too , but there were talk that germans like to reduce their holding to 7.5%, even spain own 5% dispite a opposition from france ,all it means that france has a saying in the company buy not the deciding voice..
but here we are talking of EUROFIGHTER , and EADS owned 43% shares in eurofighter venture though CASA and DASA...CASA is spanish agency and DASA is german agency ,( the rest 57% owned by the british BAE and the italians ) so , what that means , that in respect of Eurofighter , the franch has no holding...
but in other side , EADS has a holding in Dassault ....you know what it means , that if india managed to get into EADS , they can actually make Dassault to upgrade mirage fighters at a competitive price ....


and i could see a share swap agreement coming out in MMRCA deal with the four nation consortum , EADS and the HAL , intresting to know that HAL also planing a IPO to hit the stock market in coming month....

German government has no share in EADS, only private companies, while the French governtment has and the CEO of EADS is French as well. In General the it's a 50 - 50 cooperation between the interests of Germany and France, Spain doesn't really play a role. Also you talked about EADS is working with Indians (consultancy for Tejas for example) and that inclueds the French part as well, because only in the EF they are not involved.
Regarding the Dassault shares, AFAIK they have no voting rights, which means that they don't have a say in Dassaults policy and it would make much more sense to influence the French government in that case then EADS.

thanks sancho
so ultimately j10b [if still on track] and rafale induction would start somewhat in the same time frame

Yes and it will be interesting to see how it technically competes against upg MKIs and MRCAs, not only from PAFs point of view, but also from PLAAF.

 

[sancho]

Rafale, Typhoon score on merit

Just why has the Indian Air Force (IAF) short-listed the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon ahead of four other contenders, including the US F-16 and F/A-18 fighters, for the Rs 42, 000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract?

The down selection at the end of a prolonged evaluation of the six fighter jets was evidently based on the fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon were the most modern airframes and better equipped compared to F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 IN of the US, MiG-35 of Russia, and JAS-39 Gripen of Sweden.

The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.

“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.

Interestingly, all six fighters were in the race till April 17, the deadline for submission of modified offset proposals. The representatives of these firms were informed of the Union government’s decision to relax the offset policy mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP).

The original rider that half the value of the $ 10.5 billion contract be passed on to domestic firms was modified, fixing it at 30 per cent of the deal. “We were all expecting a word on extension of commercial proposals on the last day, April 28, but got to know that only Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter have been invited for discussions,” said a representative of Saab AB.

Those who lost out have made it known that they would raise issues concerning the price and other attributes of Rafale and Typhoon. The two aircraft are said to be the highest priced among those in the contest when looked at from a unit price point of view. Second, the Eurofighter’s AESA radar is still under development. Only the two US fighters have operational AESA radars on them.

If India finally picks the Rafale, it would be only the second air force after the French Air Force to induct these fighters into its fleet.

India has asked Dassault SA and Eurofighter GmbH to hold their price bids until the end of the year. The deal is expected to be signed by March 2012.

The Final Two

Eurofighter Typhoon – Germany/Britain/Italy/Spain

Dassault Rafale -- France

Out of the contest

Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN – USA

Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet – USA

SAAB’s Gripen JAS-39 – Sweden

Mikoyan-Gureywich’s MiG-35 – Russia

Rafale, Typhoon score on merit | Deccan Chronicle

 

[jha]

 

[jha]

Just look at the thrust by Powerful planes..I just love that this is not underpowered..

 

[luckyyy]

German government has no share in EADS, only private companies, while the French governtment has and the CEO of EADS is French as well.

when it comes to company law , it doesn't differentiate that shares are owned by private players or by state govt...

In General the it's a 50 - 50 cooperation between the interests of Germany and France, Spain doesn't really play a role.

that's only limited to one unit of EADS engaged in menufecturing of AIRBUS..

Also you talked about EADS is working with Indians (consultancy for Tejas for example) and that inclueds the French part as well,

you arw wrong here , EADS consultance unit working on LCA has no french holding , ..
the EADS unit involved in EF has no frenh holding..

Regarding the Dassault shares, AFAIK they have no voting rights, which means that they don't have a say in Dassaults policy and it would make much more sense to influence the French government in that case then EADS.
.

Dassault has already sold 45% of their share to stake holders of different EADS units , ..

my assessment is that , MMRCA deal will follow the strick corporate modal of business rather a TOT and licence menufecturing..
most probably DASA going to sell their 7.5% out of 15% holding in Eurofighter GmbH to HAL and HAL going to give equity to DASA in return , also few more stake holders in variuos EADS units could came up to grab the new oppertunity in HAL on a equity swap route , HAL is anyway coming out with a IPO and up for grab and i don't think these player like to miss the big oppertunity looking at the load of work HAL going to take up in next 20 years...

 

[sancho]

when it comes to company law , it doesn't differentiate that shares are owned by private players or by state govt...

Of course it is different, because private companies have only comercial interests, while govt owned have political too! In fact many French are not too happy with the Germans, because they develop everything with business in mind and not neccesarily with the needs of the forces.

that's only limited to one unit of EADS engaged in menufecturing of AIRBUS..

No it's not, we are talking about EADS as the parent company, airbus is only a subsidiary:

As you can see you can see, the French state and French holdings has the same share as Daimler of the whole company!

Dassault has already sold 45% of their share to stake holders of different EADS units

I know, but as I said, these shares have no voting rights, that's why EADS has can't intervene in Dassault Aviations policy!

 

[tushar]

The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.

So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....

 

[sancho]

So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....

No, what the article meant was, that we should buy new Rafales instead of upgrading the Mirage 2000s, but that's not going to happen.

 

[kish]

So dassault will upgrade mirage 2000 for free if Rafale will be selected ??/ If its true, i think Rafale should be selected....

u misunderstood that ,
he wanted to say that we should not upgrade M2K and the money saved by them use to purchase Rafale that will more worth for us.

 

[tushar]

No, what the article meant was, that we should buy new Rafales instead of upgrading the Mirage 2000s, but that's not going to happen.

So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then?

u misunderstood that ,
he wanted to say that we should not upgrade M2K and the money saved by them use to purchase Rafale that will more worth for us.

So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....

It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....

 

[Archie]

So whats the catch ??/ I guess we will have to pay for those Rafales which we will purchase instead of upgrading Mirage 2000....and what will happen with ou mirage 2000 then?


So why did they even mention it ?? I mean its our money and its upto us whether we want to upgrade mirage or buy rafale instead.....

It would be better that Dassault upgrade our Mirage for free in response to MMRCA given to Rafale.....we can negotiate alot because both the projects Rafale and Eurofighter are struggling....Rafale selection in MMRCA can be a big break for France as their Rafale has failed to bag any foreign deal....
On the other hand eurofighter is struggling with the reduction in order from participating nations and increased costs....

Well the thing is that IAF is still not happy with the 42 Million USD Price per unit for Mirage 2000H

A single Rafale will cost 87 Million USD in mmrca deal , this include setting up of infrastructure, training , as well as initial batch of weapons and spares for 10 yrs

If we are to order additional Rafales , then it would cost less than the initial 126 jets coz the price will not include Infrastructure and training cost
As per my sources , there is a serious chance of IAF increasing the initial order by 28-32 Aircrafts at the additional cost of 2 Billion USD , while retiring Mirage 2000 by 2020 instead of 2030 which was planned if Mirages were to be upgraded