Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[gogbot]

^^^^^^^^^

this seems to be mis-guided response to a similar and a slightly more accurate claim by Euro Fighter

 

[sancho]

^^^^^^^^^

this seems to be mis-guided response to a similar and a slightly more accurate claim by Euro Fighter

Both, Boeing and the EF consortium are trying their best to sell their fighters, because they know with every year 5. gen fighters are closer to arrive, especially for India (Pak Fa/FGFA, MCA and even F35 is an option). So don't take their PR reports too seriously.

 

[Imran Khan]

koi faisla hoa bhai ??????? lagta hai 2020 tak time lagy ga is kam ko

 

[sancho]

This time the aviation magazin Air & Cosmos is reporting about the exercise in UAE (called ATLC):

Duels over the sands
Air&Cosmos , June 2010


Saint-Dizier, November 8, 2009. a first wave of 3 Rafale from the 1 / 7 "Provence" squadron is leaving Haute-Marne for much more desert horizons. Heading to the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and the Al Dhafra air base, to an exercise that any fighter pilot in the world would not want to miss, the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (ATLC), organized annually by the UAE.
In total, 6 Rafale of the 1/7, in 2 waves of 3 aircrafts, join the UAE base in autumn 2009. They are accompanied by 15 pilots, with different backgrounds and experiences. All have the opportunity to come and train on an extraordinary playground: 3 times larger than the Red Flag "range", the Air Warfare Centre (AWC) was established in 2000 for Gulf countries and their key allies such as the United States, Britain and France, as well as other nations invited each year. The UAE AWC also has the latest equipment in the field of debrief missions, allowing very precise debriefing at the end of each mission.
In 2009, the Rafale participate ATLC for the first time. But another special guest shares the bill : the US F-22A Raptor, the U.S. Air Force has dispatched 6 aircraft attached to the 27th Fighter Squadron, based in Langley AFB.
Designed in the early 90s, the American fighter is the most modern fighter in service today. It combines extraordinary aerodynamic performance with a very large stealth, but also a weapon system built around a powerful AESA radar and passive sensors whose operation is similar in principle to those of Spectra. Tailored for high-altitude interception and BVR Combat, the Raptor knows how to defend itself in dogfight: it has a thrust vector that guides the air flow of its two reactors in the vertical plan, with overflow maneuverability in all phases of flight. On paper, the F-22A Raptor and the Rafale have not much in common. While the U.S. aircraft (the most expensive fighter in the world) was designed as the ultimate fighter aircraft, the french jet is a versatile and "affordable" combat aircraft. Both are not even competing on the international market because Washington refuses to export the Raptor, which must remain the "secret US boot" during an aerial war of high intensity.
The 2009 ATLC release will be the pretext of the first confrontation between the two aircraft ...

One defeat for five draws.

The U.S. Air Force, however, put strict conditions surrounding the confrontation: the Raptor will not participate in any BVR exercise with foreign aircraft. The American pilots only accept to confront in dogfight, 1 vs 1, against crews that participate in the exercise. Pilots of the 1/7 take their chance ... and the results will be rather promising: on 6 engagements, only one has resulted, according to the French aviators, with a straightforward victory for the F-22A. The other 5 have ended with a 'draw' ,a situation of equality that can be obtained by various parameters: Dual protracted beyond a preset time,crossing of the floor set for the exercice ...
2 main parameters give the advantage to the Raptor in dogfight: the thrust vector and the enormous power conferred by its 2 reactors, which give each twice the thrust of the M88! Although it is much heavier than the Rafale, the F22A maintains a formidable manceuvrability that allows it to leave the most delicate BFM situations; even if it loses a lot of energy during maneuvers with the highest angle of attack, this energy can be quickly recovered by its engines.
But the french pilots are careful to qualify the Raptor as invulnerable: "Facing an F-22A, the Rafale can be put in firing position but it must do it very quickly, lest the roles reversed if the battle drags on" summarizes a French aviator.
[...]

Stealth but not invisible: ATLC screenshots of the F-22A seen through the Rafale FSO

 

[sancho]

Exercise in Corsica:

Enemy Brothers
Air&Cosmos - June 2010


Since birth, both were scheduled to compete. The wrestling (commercial) which has now engaged the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale on the international scene has its roots in the early 80s, while Europe is seriously considering a joint development of a new multinational European fighter aircraft. France, United Kingdom and Germany are the main actors in a drama that will last many years. These last two countries, which have already collaborated in the Panavia consortium for the development of the Tornado are looking to replace a portion of their tactical fleet. For its part, France is trying, too, to have a fighter that can replace almost all of its combat aircraft. But from the beginning, the situation appears complex, whereas the English call for an air superiority aircraft class 11-12 tonnes, Paris argues for a device of only 9 tons. Moreover, the problems of industrial shares weigh down the prospects of cooperation including France, whose aeronautical companies ardently defend their plans to support the maintenance of their skills. In 1985, France announced it will develop alone its future combat aircraft. For their part, the United Kingdom, Germany, Italy and Spain will start the Eurofighter program. While France wants to start building a really multirole aircraft, the nations in the Eurofighter consortium finance the development of a superiority aircraft, designed for air to air combat. To date yet, the 'Typhoon has only very limited air-ground capabilities compared with the Rafale.

More thrust for the Typhoon

On paper, the Typhoon has some undeniable advantages: more powerful than M88, its two reactors conferred it a better weight/thrust than the Rafale. According to the Eurofighter pilots, this additional power would be particularly appreciable during simulated combat below 20,000 ft, where the density of air allows the engines to be fully expressed. In the battle beyond visual range (BVR), the Typhoon also has an greater "extension" than the Rafale. This is because of the the physical characteristics of the radar, which antenna "sees" futher than the RBE2-PESA, but also because of the dynamic performance of the American missile AIM-120 AMRAAM . Designed exclusively for intercepting medium-range, it certainly does not have the versatility of the Mica, but it is superior in terms of range. Facing a Rafale, these theoretical advantages, however, must be nuanced.
In BVR combat, although the lengthening of the radar and missiles of the Typhoon are superior, the french Rafale fighter's radar signature is, according to many pilots, much less important than the Eurofighter's one. It is therefore an asset. Even better: the sensors fusion which enjoys the Rafale is also a crucial advantage in BVR combat, because it offers the pilots a much better understanding of the tactical situation during combat, and this, 360 degrees around the aircraft.
Once the "merge" is reached (when BVR combat turns into short-range), the Rafale has still strong chances of victory against the Typhoon. In the opinion of French pilots who have confronted the European aircraft, it's above all the quality of the electric flight controls [FBW] of the French fighter who makes the difference. In dogfight, Rafale can quickly point its nose to the threat, while less degrading its energy than the Eurofighter does. And this partly because the maximum angle of attack of the Rafale is "clamped" around 300, which allows it to evolve in a controlled manner even at low speed.
This difference in terms of maneuverability is also illustrated by the position of the canard on the two planes: placed well in front of the fuselage on the Typhoon, they play the role of an additional control surface used to "steer" more quickly the nose of the plane to take the incidence.
Conversely, the Rafale ducks are located very near the delta wing and are used primarily to pick up the airflow to slow up the loss of lift on the wing, thus giving the pilot a full control of the aircraft at low speeds.

A first indisputable skirmish

The Armée de l' Air has been able to experience this superiority in dogfight in September 2009, during an exercise organized by the French and British headquarters, during a deployment on the Solenzara airbase in Corsica . Few days , the EC-1/7 stands next with the Royal Air Force transformation squadron on typhoons.
The English have thought of everything, and introduce to the French pilots the simulated engagement patterns they wish to practice facing the Rafale. The French pilots push back a smile: the conditions of the exercice are, on paper, custom-made for the Typhoons and plan within visual range fights , 1 vs 1, under 20,000 ft and 350 knots. Whatever. The 'Provence' squadron takes up the gauntlet ... The 2 planes take off, then meet up at 18 000 ft to start the exercise. The aircraft are flying on the same trajectory with about 2 km of lateral separation. "Turn Away" with this announcement, the pilots turn 45 ° outward, to move away from each other. A few seconds later, the "turn in" and the planes turn toward each other to meet face-to-face in the sky. Once both aircraft is within visual range , its the ultimate ad: "Fight's on!". The first skirmish is indisputable. It need less than 40 seconds and only 3 crossing for the Rafale pilot to have its gun in firing position. However, the pilots flying the two planes are far from beginners. While the English is considered a Typhoon specialist in air to air , the "Provence" pilot has also a solid experience in within visual range combat.

Nine wins, one defeat

This initial result is not a fluke: the two next passes end also to the advantage of the Rafale. In total, 4 different engagements will take place in Corsica, for a total of 9 wins against 1 defeat for the french fighter. A nice demonstration of force that inspires the pilots the following moral: without mastery, power is nothing ... It is however an area where the Typhoon is victorious: the one of exports. While the Rafale is still looking for a first client, the Typhoon has already been sold to Saudi Arabia and Austria, and remains opposed to the Rafale in Switzerland and India.

A typhoon in trouble

 

[ejaz007]

Defence companies race to win $12bn Indian Air Force contract

* European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company denies shifting of operations to India a move to win the contract
* IAF to acquire 18 jets in read-to-fly condition, remaining 118 to be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under technology transfer
By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: Weapon manufacturers across the globe are devising innovative methods to win the $12 billion contract for supplying 126 multi-role fighter jets to the Indian Air Force (IAF).

While American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin is assuring that it would provide more advanced F-16IN fighters to India than Pakistan, European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company NV (EADS) has taken the lead by planning to shift some components of their company to India.

The development projects of the advanced fourth generation Eurofighter Typhoon would generate 20,000 jobs in India. In turn, the recession hit EADS is expecting cheap labour and also expects the move to influence Indian leaders politically, as well as emotionally to award the multi-billion contract to the European company.

Representatives of the other contenders – Mikoan of Russia with their MiG-35 aircraft, the Dassault Aviation of France with the Rafele, the JAS 39 Gripen from the Saab company of Sweden and the F/A-18 Super Hornet from Boeing – are also leaving no stone unturned to procure the contract.

Interest: EADS has denied that its’ shifting of operations to India was linked to trying to win the multi-billion contract, saying it was only interested in procuring cheap, technical manpower.

But analysts say the move was aimed to put indirect pressure on the government to award this contract and even future contracts to the company. “No government, after this move, will be in a position to compromise on the future of 20,000 of its citizens who would be employed by the company,” said an analyst.

“We will transfer some of our development projects, which we have in Europe for the Eurofighter or other military aircraft, to India, where we have set up a military research and development centre in Bangalore,” EADS Defence and Security Chief Executive Stefan Zoller told Indian journalists in Bonn recently.

Asserting that the consortium’s research and defence (R&D) activities were independent of its bid for the 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the IAF, Zoller said leveraging the high-skilled Indian talent and the potential of the emerging Indian aerospace industry would lead to developing new technologies and creation of jobs.

“If we win the IAF order, the development of newer versions of the Typhoon for India and the global market will result in the creation of about 20,000 direct jobs, as the bid involves the winner re-investing 50 percent of the deal in India’s defence manufacturing industry,” Zoller said.

Technology transfer: The IAF plans to acquire 18 of the jet fighters in ready-to-fly condition, with the remaining 118 being manufactured by the Indian defence company Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) under technology transfer and licensed production, to replace its ageing Russian MiG-21 fleet and enhance its strike capability.

“We will transfer 60 percent of the Eurofighter technology to India if Typhoon wins the bid. Our long-term strategy is to partner with the Indian aerospace industry for our global market, as we consider the Indian talent and resources as an ideal source for developing newer technologies,” Zoller said.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[flanker143]

to me both EU jets provide more or less the same performance ......

as far as rafale's thrust is concerned .... i had read somewhere that france has offered india to integrate its kaveri engines in rafale....

and considering the fact that mmrca is aint coming any soon .......we got alot of time to make our kaveri engines perform better (m88-kaveri hybrid)

 

[anathema]

For all those who havent seen....F16 Block 60 simulator...excellent vid and gives a brief understanding of how a cockpit functions....Enjoy...its ultra cool..

 

[anathema]

Typhoon's simulator....this is damn impressive....and probably the most user friendly of them all...i love the lady in the cockpit screaming...pull up ! pull up !! Enjoy...

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

I support anything other than american.You know the reason..

 

[flanker143]

I support anything other than american.You know the reason..

TOT problem ????..i think so...

 

[soaringphnx]

In my opinion, the rafale is the best bet for India (remember, the IAF originally wanted Mirages). It is true multi-role as it has excellent air-to-ground abilities while it also has good air-to-air abilities (though not as good as the eurofighter typhoon).

As far as I am concerned, the F-18, F-16 (because of problems with American ToT and sanctions) and MiG-35 (As the IAF already have access to russian tech and are looking to diversify) are already out of the race (although I would have loved to see the MiG-35 in service in India).

I doubt that the Griphen will be selected as it does not offer much political advantages and is competetion for the LCA. Moreover, many of it's components are American and hence again prone to sanctions. Moreover, Swedish jets have never been in service in India.

That leaves us with the eurofighter and the rafale. Both have an edge over other contenders (other than MiG-35) when it comes to ToT as it has few or no american components. Both gives the IAF access to European tech. The eurofighter is better in air-to-air while the rafale has an edge in air-to ground combat. But should India go for another fighter excelling in air-to-air when it has the Su-30MKI? So here, the rafale has the advantage as it can complement the Su-30MKI. Moreover, the rafale is cheaper than the eurofighter and according to wikipedia, it has a lower RCS. India already has a good experience with the mirages. We would only have to make a few changes in the existing infrastructure which translates to less money spent on induction. Infact, I think the IAF should extend the tender and induct 200 of the Rafales.

 

[soaringphnx]

TOT problem ????..i think so...

Besides ToT and sanctions, I don't think the american planes fit what IAF is looking for.

F/A-18 may be a fine fighter, but since the US Navy is focusing on the F-35, will there be any future upgrades? It is true that it is still in service with the US Navy, but for how long? Once they close their production line, we will have problems with spares. Also, I read somewhere that the F-18 is actually in the heavy class fighter and that it is only slightly smaller than the Su-30MKI.

The F-16 has a very low chance of being selected as PAF already operates them and have better experience. Again, how long will it be in production and will it have any future upgrades?

Both the F-16 and F/A-18 may be successful fighters, but are they still equally effective now? (To bring my point to a better perspective, consider the MiG-21. It was a very successful design, but now it is outdated) Both are old designs, so I feel it is better to opt for more recent designs like the eurofighter or rafale (my choice) which have a better scope for future upgrades.

 

[soaringphnx]

EADS has offered India to join the consortum as a fifth nation. The French have also indicated that they intend to go beyond a buyer-seller relationship. That means we will have a say in future upgrades of the Typhoon or Rafale. So isn't it better to choose one of them? Too bad they are the most expensive fighters in the competition.

 

[karan.1970]

In my view, ToT is over hyped. We have enough on our plates with LCA and Su 30 MKI from a local manufacture perspective. With the economic and industrial base we have, sanctions will do pretty little if that ever happens. And with F 18 the only proven platform apart from F 16, my vote's still with the bug..