Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[Hindustan Fighter]

currently how many mig 21's are with IAF ?

250 at least not sure about the exact figure

 

[Dash]

With slightly more than 1 billion for the engine to move from 7.5 to 9 pounds of thrust, at the request of Abu Dhabi.

I see some interesting equation here.
1. For all we know that French are helping us to improve the Kaveri Engine, which will come to same thurst.

2. Will Rafale actually with UAE invest another 1 billion to make another type of engine. They can use Kaveri if its proved to be succesful. What could be the best choice at this time that India-UAE-France investing on something like Kaveri to make it F4 engine!!!!....

3. If this can somehow get to drawing board then rafale will have an even get into a partnership, Now you share the profit incurred by the engines developed.? Possible??...

4. This will lead Rafale to make an even stronger pitch. Earlier we were seeing it as a bilateral partnership, it can be trilateral and also it will have monetary benifts.

5. I mean french already said they can fit Kaveri to Rafale so fit it to UAE Rafales will not be a problem....

Prateek/Sancho/Gogbot...any comments???

 

[gogbot]

But Gogbot some of the compoents in Euro and Typhoon is also US made and we always have the risk of facing Seaking type of debacle..

US won't be so petty ,

first
US is currently trying to gain Indian trust , they will be more then willing in the short term.

second
IF US can't even be a safe 3rd party supplier , then they may close them selves of from the Indian defence market.

third
We Already have more direct deal's with the US , it won't make a difference at this point. to consider those kinds of scenario's

fourth
by not supplying parts to India they also risk alienation of their allies in Europe. The US would be going over their heads to compromise one of their deals and upset their customer , they end economic loser will be them, that's why any Move like that from the US , would do more harm them good.

fifth
US know's by showing it can be a reliable 3rd part supplier , it will help put aside out fears and improve their chances for future bids.

Of course there is always the risk , but that's to be expected with any import , the only way we can ever truly guarantee supplies is to make our own.

 

[Dash]

Yes Mirage was the original choice, but MoD seems to want more, also we asked Quatar for their M2ks before, but they wanted a way to high price for them, so why should this be different now?
Personally, I thought to buy the UAE M2k-9, instead the upgrade of our M2ks would be a good idea. Half of them are pretty new and it is known that these are upgraded with techs and weapons that not even the M2Ks of French forces had.

Sancho - I was actually against this deal of buying Mirages from UAE. Now I have written post above and what if we buy these Mirages, we just retire some Mig21s, I mean this morning we had a crash.

I will save some lives and I will help IAF in keeping the squadron strength alive. We are in talks with Russia for some 46(I guess) Su-30 MKIs.

IF we just buy these we can first cater to the above needs and second be a better friend to UAE and invite them to use the Kaveri Engine, which France is developing for us. We all can invest money in this engine. Who knows this work out to be a different game all togather??...

 

[sancho]

I see some interesting equation here.
1. For all we know that French are helping us to improve the Kaveri Engine, which will come to same thurst.

2. Will Rafale actually with UAE invest another 1 billion to make another type of engine. They can use Kaveri if its proved to be succesful. What could be the best choice at this time that India-UAE-France investing on something like Kaveri to make it F4 engine!!!!....

3. If this can somehow get to drawing board then rafale will have an even get into a partnership, Now you share the profit incurred by the engines developed.? Possible??...

4. This will lead Rafale to make an even stronger pitch. Earlier we were seeing it as a bilateral partnership, it can be trilateral and also it will have monetary benifts.

5. I mean french already said they can fit Kaveri to Rafale so fit it to UAE Rafales will not be a problem....

Prateek/Sancho/Gogbot...any comments???

Hi Dash, the Kaveri-Snecma engine is likely to benefit from exactly this M88-3 engine, some sources say it will use the same core.
Regarding Kaveri-Snecma engine for Rafale, I said this often too, imo there is a big chance for a Dassault - HAL (France - India) partnership, where everybody can benefit.

Consider export Rafales F3/F4 and LCA MK2 with the same following configs:

Engine - Kaveri-Snecma with 90kN thrust
Radar - RBE 2 AESA
IRST - co-developed FSO-IT (new version of the FSO which is not funded yet)
Avionics - EWS would be different (Mayavi and Spectra), but HMS could be Topsight I (JV between Thales and Samtel) and the Damocles pod
Weapons - Mica IF/Astra (cheaper and most likely longer range than Mica EM)/Meteor missiles, for short, medium and long ranges.
AASM and Indian LGB comparable to US JDAM and Paveway kits
Exocet anti-ship and Helina for the anti-tank role

Both fighters would offer a cost-effective high/low combination for any export country, with high commonality and a win-win solution for France and India!

We could be the perfect partner for exports with a high number of Rafales on order too, but it seems we miss this big chance, because everything takes way too long.

 

[sancho]

Below is latest update on Gripen NG

They have increased combat load to 7200 Kg

Hi Prateek, did you realised that the cost per flight hour increased now, compared to what they offered us before?




I guess they gave only estimations based on the normal Gripens to us, because the NG is only under development and not operational yet. That's why several things can still change, be it good, or bad. Just like all the nice and really impressing weapon configs, but none of them are reality now, because all these multi pylons are not integrated (developed?).


P.S. Just got a confirmation from an German Luftwaffe pilot, that all EFs are still limited to Paveway II (UK EFs also Enhanced Paveway II) in A2G and not a single A2G missile is operational, or in testing yet. He said there are test dummies that could be attached to the EF on the ground, but life test (be it flight, or drops) are not possible. If there was an evaluation team in Europe, that saw a Brimstone/Storm Shadow test, it must have been on another fighter, possibly Tornados, but not an EF and most likely not in Germany.

 

[Dash]

Yes I agree...

Both fighters would offer a cost-effective high/low combination for any export country, with high commonality and a win-win solution for France and India!

We could be the perfect partner for exports with a high number of Rafales on order too, but it seems we miss this big chance, because everything takes way too long.

Good that we went for the tender process. It has great advantages to arrive at what IAF is looking for. Like Prateek said attack capability and Life cycle cost.

But my question why there is another M88 engine developement with UAE when you already have partenered with India to make an engine which can go to LCA. You are actually not diversifyingthe funds but spending unwisely. We should pitch in here btn UAE and France to convince them to invest on Kaveri engine..and use the same engine in F4 Rafale!!!....

The above picture you gave on Rafale and LCA is really a promising one.
Even if you use Elta Radar in LCA or our home grown RADAR with Israel/France who ever will still be a punch.

 

[sancho]

Yes I agree...



Good that we went for the tender process. It has great advantages to arrive at what IAF is looking for. Like Prateek said attack capability and Life cycle cost.

But my question why there is another M88 engine developement with UAE when you already have partenered with India to make an engine which can go to LCA. You are actually not diversifyingthe funds but spending unwisely. We should pitch in here btn UAE and France to convince them to invest on Kaveri engine..and use the same engine in F4 Rafale!!!....

The above picture you gave on Rafale and LCA is really a promising one.
Even if you use Elta Radar in LCA or our home grown RADAR with Israel/France who ever will still be a punch.

Hi Dash, MoD is interested in Kaveri-Snecma co-development again, but if I'm not wrong nothing is signed yet. Also the integration into Rafale, or later possibilities to offer it for exports, will only be possible if Rafale wins MMRCA, but there's a long way to go for it. UAE instead wants Rafale, is more or less ready to fund half of the M88-3 development and that all as soon as possible, not so slow like things goes in India. So if you are French and have the choice to fund half of the upgrade of your own engine for Rafale, or co-develop a foreign engine and integrate it, what would you do?
That's why I said, imo we are missing a big chance here, not only because of Kaveri engine and LCA, but also to be an equal partner of the Rafale.

 

[Dash]

That's why I said, imo we are missing a big chance here, not only because of Kaveri engine and LCA, but also to be an equal partner of the Rafale.

Indeed, no doubt..

 

[flanker143]

is the eurofighter s's captor aesa ready ??

what are its specs ??

 

[sancho]

is the eurofighter s's captor aesa ready ??

what are its specs ??

No, just in the early testing stage, they didn't even fixed how it should look like (swashplate, or fixed AESA), given the good performance of the normal Captor and the good diameter of the EF nose (it is speculated with 1400 T/R modules), we can expect much.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

Snecma

First test flight of Rafale fighter powered by upgraded M88-4E engine
Courcouronnes, May 4, 2010.

The first test flight of a Rafale fighter powered by the Snecma (Safran group) M88-4E engine (formerly designated the “TCO Pack”, for total cost of ownership) took place on March 22 at the Istres air base in southern France. Lasting 1 hour and 30 minutes, the flight was a total success, and was used to expand the flight envelope. The complete test campaign for the M88-4E engine comprises some 70 flights in 2010, with different engine configurations. Ten test flights have been carried out to date.

“We are satisfied with the successful initial flights of the M88-4E, the third major engine upgrade, reflecting our continuing focus on research & development. The latest evolution of the engine enables us to better meet the expectations of our customer, by helping decrease the Rafale’s maintenance costs,” said Didier Desnoyer, Snecma’s Vice President Military Engines.

The development of the M88-4E is proceeding very satisfactorily. The first ground test of the engine was performed in September 2009. Development engines are now undergoing ground performance and endurance tests, and a series of altitude chamber tests was completed in late February. Qualification and delivery of the first production-standard M88-4E is now slated for the end of 2011.

In January 2008, French defense procurement agency DGA awarded Snecma the “TCO Pack” contract for the M88-2 engine. The aim of this contract was to extend the service life and time between inspections for several parts of the engine. Modifications mainly concern the high-pressure compressor and turbine.

Designed for the Rafale multirole fighter, the M88 is the first member of a family of new-generation engines intended for 21st century combat and advanced training aircraft. The M88-2 now powers all air force and naval versions of the Rafale. It is particularly well suited to low-altitude penetration and high-altitude interception missions.

Snecma, a Safran group company, is one of the world’s leading manufacturers of aircraft and space engines, with a wide range of propulsion systems on offer. The company designs and builds commercial aircraft engines – including the CFM56* world’s leader - that are powerful, reliable, economical and environmentally friendly, along with military aircraft engines that have always delivered world-class performance. Snecma also develops and produces propulsion systems and equipment for launch vehicles and satellites. Snecma also offers a complete range of engine maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) services to airlines, armed forces and operators.
* CFM56 engines are produced and marketed by CFM International, a 50/50 joint company between General Electric and Snecma.


PS: Does anybody have any information about this engine,like thrust,dimensions,etc..

 

[sancho]

Snecma

First test flight of Rafale fighter powered by upgraded M88-4E engine
Courcouronnes, May 4, 2010.

The first test flight of a Rafale fighter powered by the Snecma (Safran group) M88-4E engine (formerly designated the “TCO Pack”, for total cost of ownership) took place on March 22 at the Istres air base in southern France. Lasting 1 hour and 30 minutes, the flight was a total success, and was used to expand the flight envelope. The complete test campaign for the M88-4E engine comprises some 70 flights in 2010, with different engine configurations. Ten test flights have been carried out to date...

PS: Does anybody have any information about this engine,like thrust,dimensions,etc..

Found this in another forum:

M88 Developements for Domestic and Export markets:

First the main developement was destined to the domestic market (MN/AdA) with the steps taken by SNECMA from M88-2E1 to M88-2E4.

FROM Standard M88-2 to M88-2E4 developed from <> 1995.

New:

----Three-dimensional high-pressure (HP) compressor.
----Turbine blades.
----Blisks (one-piece blades and discs).
----Improved thermal coatings on the HP turbine.
----Advanced cooling channels for the combustion chamber.

Noticeable technological progresses:

TURBINE BLADE LIFE AUGMENTED BY A FACTOR OF THREE.

BLISKS.

TOLERANCE TO HIGHER TEMPERATURES.

SFC LOWERED BY UP TO 4% COMPARED TO M88-2-Evolution1.

---->

FROM Standard M88-2E4 to M88-3.

New:

----LP compressor.
----Variable stator vane stage.

---->

FROM M88-3 to M88 ECO.

----HP corps.
----Combustion chamber.

---->

M88-3 VS M88 ECO.

Diameter:--------- 790mm 31.1-in VS 700mm 27.56-in.
Length:----------- 3.6 m 12-ft VS 3.5 m 12-ft.
Weight:----------- 985 kg 2,172-lb VS 897 kg 1,978-lb.
Thrust:----------- 89.9 kN 20,250-lb VS 75.5 kN 17,000-lb.

According to these figures:

M88-3 diameter is <> 90mm superior, it is 100mm longer and 88 Kg heavier than M88-2; this would add 176 Kg to Rafale away from CG.

So M88-4E = M88ECO

 

[sudhir007]

 

[sudhir007]

F/A-18 as good as 5th gen: US Navy | StratPost

The US Navy has compared the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet to fifth generation fighter aircraft, making a strong pitch for its selection in the 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest of the Indian Air Force (IAF).

A chart illustrating Commander Goska's point.
In presentations made last month to Indian journalists visiting the Naval Air Station, Oceana at Norfolk in Virginia, also the largest naval base in the world, Commander Mike Goska of the US Navy, compared the fighter to fifth generation combat aircraft like the F-35 and the F-22 and indicated that the US Navy plans for the F-35 to complement the Super Hornet.

The F-35 JSF is to complement US Navy Super Hornets.

Dr. Vivek Lall, Vice President and India Country Head, Boeing Defense, Space and Security, explains, &#8220;Many of the same technologies are common across all three of these next-generation fighters, and the Super Hornet is available today.&#8221;

According to Goska, the US Navy intends to keep the aircraft in service beyond 2035. Indeed, the US Navy is currently in the process of placing an order for 124 F/A-18 Super Hornets, at a price that a Reuters report says would come to around US $5.3 billion in a multi-year deal with each aircraft coming to around US $40 million, not including US $10 million for &#8216;government-furnished equipment&#8217;, less than the price of US $ 57 million listed on a US Navy website.

But even though the size of the buy is similar, with the US Navy&#8217;s 124 to the IAF MMRCA&#8217;s 126, Boeing officials are unable to indicate whether this figure could be taken as an indicator of the price tag for India in the event of the aircraft winning the Indian contest, even as they failed to confirm the prices indicated for the US Navy in the report.

In the event of the Super Hornet becoming the MMRCA, the ensuing contract would be an FMS (Foreign Military Sale) between India and the United States, which would also provide the IAF the benefits of economies of scale. &#8220;Under the FMS system, the US DoD (Department of Defense) is committed to procuring FMS defense articles and services under the same contractual provisions used for its own procurements. This system is designed to acquire the required quality items at the lowest feasible price from qualified sources and to provide for contract administration. FMS and DoD orders are often consolidated to obtain economy-of-scale buys and therefore lower unit prices,&#8221; says Lall.

&#8220;Under the FMS system, the foreign purchaser is charged a nominal fee for the contracting and administrative services provided by DoD. This fee is currently 3.8 per cent of the value of the contract and ensures that the DoD does not make a profit or take a loss on a Foreign Military Sale,&#8221; he adds.

If the actual sale price is lower than than the estimate made in the Letter of Acceptance, then the unspent money would be returned to India as the US government is not allowed to make a profit on an FMS deal.