Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[KEETARP]

but hal says building the lca wud take much less time because high %age of composite materials used in it ......

and also lca is much smaller than mki so why such a small rate of production ??

should be near 20 or more

Now since you have brought up those questions ,

Do some google on lines I am giving

What is the role of Alenia ( an Italian Carbon-composite air wing manufacture company) and its export to India.

Where does aviation grade Aluminium comes from

Why there is JV btw India and Russia ( ISRO + DRDO with Russia ) for aviation grade aluminium alloy tech

Get a paid account , and read the full article below
SpringerLink - Journal Article

"Laboratory-scale sheet and extrusion products meet tensile property specification of 8090 alloy. One of these semiproducts, i.e. round bar extrusion, is currently being supplied for the stallite programmes. Commercial-scale sheet products made in Russia under an Indo-Russian joint programme have been made available for the aircraft programme"

Plz , dont blame me , I am not against LCA .
Just giving you facts , if you want ignore them

 

[gogbot]

Time is one thing which Enemy is not giving us , cost if MoD is ready .
why waste 3 years like we did for MKI to develop a customized version .

let's take a look at how MKI was inducted

Early procurement
In 1996, after 2 years of evaluation and negotiations, India decided to purchase Su-30MKI aircraft. India signed a US$1.462 billion deal with the Sukhoi Corporation on 30 November 1996 for the delivery of 50 Su-30 aircraft. These aircraft were to be delivered in five batches. The first batch were 8 Su-30MKs , the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30Ks with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes. The fourth batch of 12 Su 30MKIs and final batch of 10 Su-30MKIs aircraft all were to have the AL-31FP turbofans. In 2000, another agreement was signed allowing the license production of 140 Su-30MKIs by HAL in India. The deal combined license production with full technology transfer and hence was called a 'Deep License'. The MKI production was planned to be done in four phases: Phase I, II, III and IV respectively.

we can first induct a few Euro-fighters , and when our custom version is ready , start production and induct that as well.

Also keep in mind India has come a long way since the MKI , our capabilities in manufacturing and development are now far ahead , we should take full use of this opportunity.

If they cant see beyond IL-78 to see the benefits of A330 , i doubt money being spent like UAE does .

That was the finance ministry , and it was only one incident.

Plus , we are talking about long term development and investment not a simple import deal.

I think it will have more support.

Remember we are buying C-17 and C-130J , that will tell you that the above incident is not always the case.

Mig21,27 have crossed their expiry date / air-frame life is past even date of super-expiry .
We need numbers and fast replacements as soon as possible .

Agreed , but this can be accomplished numerous ways

With HAL stuck at 8-10 MKI per year , max 8-LCA per year .
Don't be surprised IAF operating at SQ strength of 25

I think your being over pessimistic with you numbers ,

we are making more than 10 MKI per year ,

And we should be able to make a squadron of Tejas every 18 months.
i mean one of it's features was to be made in 2/3 rd the time as regular aircraft.

 

[flanker143]

I think your being over pessimistic with you numbers ,

we are making more than 10 MKI per year ,

And we should be able to make a squadron of Tejas every 18 months.
i mean one of it's features was to be made in 2/3 rd the time as regular aircraft.

.

thats what i am saying prateek...
what say in this .....

 

[sancho]

no offends my friend but i never said that 'only' ef is going to be cheaper !

I didn't mean it offensivly either, just wanted to correct it, because you talked about EF and said:

and to make that even better it is now going to be 25% cheaper.....

That's why I thought you mean only EF.

I must say, sancho u r the die-hard fan of RAFALE - just like me.

I do like the Rafale, but my main focus is on what is the best for India and there is simply no other fighter that offers so much for us. If the EF would be fully developed, with better A2G weapons and would offer that much side advantages, I would prefer it, or if the Gripen NG would offer more compared to LCA, besides other advantages I would also prefer it.
We simply must get the most out of this deal, that we can get!

Btw, I just posted it to show that it is not inferior to EF in techs, or A2A capabilities (at least in WVR combats), because many people confused the Rafale just as a strike fighter.

 

[KEETARP]

GogBot , look at the cost .
1.42 bill for 50 Su30K , and of which Russians being good friend ,simply replaced first 18 instead of upgrading .
Compare eurofighter only 18 to be purchased at 120mill a piece.
They wont replace them ,we have to upgrade them ourselves to save cost .
Customized version if comes to life will take additional time for our HAL to absorb technology .

What do you plan , HAL should start with CAPTOR and then shift to CAESAR two years later .
Samething with Engine , wing modification , launchers once A2G operations are cleared for Eurofighter

Remember we are buying C-17 and C-130J , that will tell you that the above incident is not always the case

Two things
C130 is lone player in field , A400 is far from completion . We had only one option to choose from
C17 - Again same case , no other competitor
P8i- no other option , Il38/Tu142 on offer is vintage technology .

Plus , its a political decision to increase exchange with US , even if Boeing shuts c17 plant we are going to order it

we are making more than 10 MKI per year

Source plz

Flanker buddy ,
Did you read my last post , did you try to find out what i asked

 

[flanker143]

Source plz

Flanker buddy ,
Did you read my last post , did you try to find out what i asked

sorry plzz post it here !! too lazy too go !!!!!!

 

[gogbot]

.

thats what i am saying prateek...
what say in this .....

Well , i am not to sure what to think I have read up a bit on prateek's points.

And while i can't say much , i will say he wrong about it when it comes to the FBW system , LM stopped its consultation after the 1998 nuke tests .
HAL made the FBW systems alone .

Beyond that , i still don't understand his points.

But as far as i can gather he insinuates to HAL's inability to control the Tejas production line.

We know how much is imported content , and we know HAL work to make the composites and airframe for the Machine themselves .

We already have all the GE-engines , we can get the Israeli processor , what other key equipment

 

[KEETARP]

sorry plzz post it here !! too lazy too go !!!!!!

Here you go -

Carbon-fibre composite panels for wings come from Alenia iTALY,
aviation grade Aluminium alloy from Russia .
there is no production line , we work in Labs to get it completed . Thats why only few LCA in one year .
It will continue till Production line for atleast 200 LCA is set up ,
when will be that -when IAF is satisfied means when LCA2 is complete . That is 2013 -2015 provided no set-backs .

HAL itself has said , it wont be possible to go beyond 8 until large order is placed .

GogBot ,
I never said about FBW , nor we are discussing that
You guys are upto making me do

 

[sancho]

Eft if funded or developed , nothing comes closer .
None of others except Mig35 can come close to flight performance and T/W ratio of Eurofighter .
Problem is its swash-plate AESA / A2G weapons

Rafle currently is underpowered , but still is better multi-role than Eurobird .
One it has stand-off capability ,
second RBE2 is integrated and tested
but keep in mind Till Meteor enters service Rafale will only fire MICA with max range = 60kms .
While Eurofighter can fire AMRAAM , it's tested and integrated

Hi, I posted the article of the UAE exercise to counter this argument, that some people had (not only you) just because UAE wants a higher thrust engine. The fact that the Rafale was able to proved its manouverability in close combats against 2 of the most manouverable fighters in the world, exactly in the hot conditions of UAE, should make clear that it is not underpowered at all. More power might be useful with heavier loads in such conditions, but in A2A it's obviously not underpowered at all.

Regarding missiles, METEOR is expected to be ready by 2013 and it is clear now that UAE wants it for their Rafales by that time too, so it should be available in 2014/15 for us anyway. But even if not, Astra will be developed till then too and we could integrate it as a cost-effective alternative for MICA EM (that we might have for our Mirage 2000-5s anyway), also Rafale can use AMRAAM too, if an export customer is ready to pay for the integration, but I would prefer MICA IF (or Python V) for short range, Astra for medium (up to 80Km) and METEOR for the long range.

Generally it seems that we can profit from the UAE deal, because they as always wants a more capable version and want to fund many new things. Higher thrust engines, more weapon stations and configs, CFTs, possibly upgrades for FSO and Spectra, integration of SL-AMMER and so on. On the other side, we could have done that too, to team up with Dassault to be an equal partner.

 

[gogbot]

[

Source plz

I don't have them lying around but i tried my best fight as many as possible.

Sukhoi Su-30 MKI [Flanker] [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

it was decided that the delivery schedule would be completed within ten years - by 2014 - by increasing the annual rate of production from 10 to 14 aircraft annually. An estimated 920 AL-31FP turbofans are to be manufactured at HAL's Koraput Division, while the mainframe and other accessories are to be manufactured at HAL's Divisions in Lucknow and Hyderabad. Final integration of the aircraft and its test flight are to be carried out at HAL's Nasik Division.

Su-30 FLANKER

A production rate of 12 aircraft per year over six years would another 72 aircraft, for a total of about 120 aircraft, roughly the 140 aircraft projected in 2006, more or less. In October 2008 Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal, Fali Homi Major assured that a total of 230 of the platforms would join the fleet by 2014, with Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL) trying to speed up licensed production of the aircraft. As of early 2009 India intended to manufacture a minimum of 140 Su-30MKI fighters by 2014 under a Russian license with full technology transfer rights, enough for roughly 8 squadrons, each of 16 combat aircraft and 2 trainers. While a total of 230 aircraft are expected to be in service by the year 2020, HAL would have to increase the annual production rate from 12 aircraft per year to 24 per year, and there is no indication that this ramp up has in fact happened.

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Chandigarh Stories

HAL accelerates Su-30 production
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, January 16
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has accelerated the production of indigenously assembled Su-30 multi-role aircraft for the IAF. This will result in the Air Force getting more aircraft every year, while cutting down the time to produce the entire Su-30 fleet by three years.

“We are increasing our production from eight aircraft per annum to 13 aircraft,” Managing Director of HAL, Mr K.P. Puri, said. “The Su-30 production, which was earlier scheduled to finish by 2017-18 will now be over by 2014-15,” he added.

He said the Defence Minister had accorded his approval for the accelerated production. The Su-30 are being produced at HAL's Nasik complex, which is the largest production unit among its 16 factories across the country.

The Su-30 entered service with the IAF in 1997, with 50-odd aircraft being procured directly from Russia and another about 150 aircraft to be built in India by HAL under licence.

At present, the IAF is operating three Su-30 squadrons -- the 20th, 24th and 30th squadrons. It would be the mainstay of the IAF in the
coming decades.

HAL had commenced the indigenous production of the Su-30 in 2004. The first two indigenous aircraft (MKI version) took to the skies in October, 2004, for flight tests and these were handed over to the IAF in March, 2005. The indigenous content in the Su-30 at present is just about 15 per cent and proposed to be increased progressively up to 45 per cent.

Mr Puri said a project to carry out "block-wise" improvement of the Su-30 was also on the cards. Besides HAL, the Defence Research and Development Orgaisation and Russian firms would be involved in the project. The first meeting in this regard was held on January 6.

The improvement programme involving aircraft produced in different blocks will result in aircraft having the same configuration and capabilities.

The first 50 aircraft had some deficiencies that were to be taken care of later.

HAL would also complete the upgradation of the MiG-21 to the Bison configuration this year. So far 94 MiG-21 have been upgraded and work on the remaining 29 aircraft is in progress.

As far as the MiG-27 upgrade programme is concerned, Mr Puri said the prototypes had already been certified and the first batch of 12 upgraded MiG-27s would be handed over to the IAF this year.

Unlike other upgrade programmes, the MiG-27 upgrade is totally indigenous.

The upgraded MiG-27 have a totally new cockpit, mission control computer and advanced avionics, thereby reducing the pilot's work load significantly.

The Hindu : National : Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL

“We’re currently testing the locally produced engine for the Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010.” HAL would manufacture 60 Su-30MKI fighters in the full production cycle till 2015, he said.

60 fighters in 5 years that is 12 fighters a year.

 

[KEETARP]

Sancho , exercise and 1v1 . JetA vs JetB .
I don't believe even a single line of it , I had a long discussion regarding it in" Mki for France discussion " .
When you talk off DACT - There are strict Rules of engagement ( ROE) , what cap was put for Eurofighter in terms of AoA and missile range . Only instructors can tell .
If you put ROE even mig21 beats F15 easily

Even , i heard 2 euro-fighter smashing 15 - F15 of USAF in Kabul and not loosing even one . Baseless for me

For - Flight performance
I am shamelessly copy-pasting from Paralay , P

Flight Performance:
# Fighter: EF-2000 / Rafale C
A. Max. speed, high level: 2.0 Mach + / 1.8 Mach + (* 5)
B. Max. speed, low level: 1.15 Mach / 750 kts
C. Operating altitude: 65,000 fts / 55,000 fts +
F. Climb rate, sea level:> 315 m / sec /> 305 m / sec
G. Normal G-limit: -3.0 ~ +9.0 G / -3.2 ~ +9.0 G
H. Max. upper G-limit: +12.0 ~ +15.0 G / 11.0 G +
I. Normal FCS AoA limit: 33 degrees / 32 degrees (* 6)
J. Wing-load: 297.0 ~ 300.0 kg/m2 / 281.2 ~ 291.0 kg/m2 (* 7)
K. T / W ratio for air combat, sea level: 1.22 ~ 1.24 / 1.15 ~ 1.19 with A / B (* 8)
L. T / W ratio for air combat, sea level: 0.81 ~ 0.83 / 0.77 ~ 0.79 with max. mil. (* 9)

* 5: The normal upper limit of Rafale's FCS for speed is 1.8 Mach.
* 6: Once cancelling the normal restriction of FBWs, Rafale's AoA could reach more than 100 degrees. As for EF-2000, I've only heard the information that EF-2000 had performed the maneuver with the AoA> or = 40 degrees during the flight test.
* 7 and * 8: EJ-200 already has had the potential to increase 5.5 ~ 10% more A / B thrust, and 15% more Max. A / B thrust during the war time, while M88-2 hasn't declared such a capability up to now. Therefore, the difference of T / W ratio between EF-2000 and Rafale C may become much more significant during the war time.
* 7 ~ * 9: The fighter's weight for air combat = empty weight + 50% internal fuel + MRAAM * 6 + SRAAM * 2 + pilot and gun shells.

 

[gogbot]

GogBot , look at the cost .
1.42 bill for 50 Su30K , and of which Russians being good friend ,simply replaced first 18 instead of upgrading .
Compare eurofighter only 18 to be purchased at 120mill a piece.
They wont replace them ,we have to upgrade them ourselves to save cost .

We know , this is expensive but that is the only downside.

WE don't complain about cost's after choosing the cost intensive path.

Customized version if comes to life will take additional time for our HAL to absorb technology .

What do you plan , HAL should start with CAPTOR and then shift to CAESAR two years later .
Samething with Engine , wing modification , launchers once A2G operations are cleared for Eurofighter

I am sure HAL is up to the challenge ,
Beside's HAL will be a minor partner for the whole process , THe European firms will do most of the work , keeping HAL up to date , with a work share of its won.

Remember it will be 2-3 after selection that the first squadron can be made.

After that all remaining one's are made in India , the European firms can work with HAL which will be partner with a stake. And prepare a customised version in the mean time.

I mean the work has already started CEASER will be standard , IAF wont accept it unless AESA is minimum standard.

I mean come on We are talking about 4 european firms , that want a long term role as a Supplier for the IAF surely they can get it done in time, How much do we even want to change .

Incorporate a few new weapons , Develop a TVC engine that the Firms have already laid the ground work for.

What else upgrades do we need ?

Two things
C130 is lone player in field , A400 is far from completion . We had only one option to choose from
C17 - Again same case , no other competitor
P8i- no other option , Il38/Tu142 on offer is vintage technology .

Plus , its a political decision to increase exchange with US , even if Boeing shuts c17 plant we are going to order

MRCA also has political component to it , we all know that .

And if EF is selected then it is a very big political decision.

if indeed it is Euro-fighter , or any other plane no one has the political capital to send back the MRCA to the tender phase.

Imagine the uproar , media dogs and everything. It ain't happening.
Especially with the MIg-21's , no one is gonna mess with the deal.

 

[sancho]

Sancho , exercise and 1v1 . JetA vs JetB .
I don't believe even a single line of it , I had a long discussion regarding it in" Mki for France discussion " .
When you talk off DACT - There are strict Rules of engagement ( ROE) , what cap was put for Eurofighter in terms of AoA and missile range . Only instructors can tell .
If you put ROE even mig21 beats F15 easily

Agreed about the ROE in exercises, but the combats against F22 were limited to guns only, which means only the maneuverability counts and the performance difference on paper between F22 and Rafale is even much higher, than compared to EF. Still, according to that source Rafale was killed only twice, other sources say even only 1 time and the other combats went to draw and that indeed is impressing performance to me. You can't do that if you don't have a good design and t/w ratio, right?

Btw, I wouldn't even say that the Mig 35 has a better t/w ratio, it has more thrust at the moment, but is also heavier (2 x 90kN @ at least 11t empty) than the Rafale (2 x 75 @ 9t empty).
If UAE upgrades the M88s to 90kN, or we integrate Kaveri-Snecma engines with 90kN, they will be even superior in this field too.

Even , i heard 2 euro-fighter smashing 15 - F15 of USAF in Kabul and not loosing even one . Baseless for me

That indeed is baseless, because not a single EF was ever fielded to Afghanistan!

 

[KEETARP]

^^^^

GogBot , what you are saying shows your inclination and bias towards getting Eurofighter .

Why wait/spent so much resource and time on incomplete platform , get the tested platform like Gripen/Rafale .
Save additional amount/ time, for FGFA/MCA .

Same case applies to Rafale as well , but now they have got UAE to fund .
India is to gain .
But time will be important factor when UAE deal gets signed .

 

[KEETARP]

Correction

Replace Kabul with ***** Air Base, Gran Canaria

As per Eurofighter press office, during recent exercises, NATO Air Forces carried out several training combat engagements known as DACT, Dissimilar Aircraft Combat Training, involving different types of aircraft. In this situation, where the air dominance is a matter, the Eurofighter Typhoons turned out to be the leading air-to-air fighter jets.In an interview on the exercise, Major Juan Balesta, the 41-year old Commander of the 111 Squadron stressed that a two-ship formation of Eurofighters involved in a dogfight simulation “against” the F-15s enjoyed full control of the engagement. The Typhoons managed to smash a formation of eight F-15s which had the role of the attacker with the first Eurofighter jet managing to “shoot down” four F-15 fighter jets. The second Eurofighter managed to disable three F-15 jets. Eventually the pilots were using the Eurofighter Typhoon to full capacity and taking advantage of its enormous capabilities

And F22 vs Rafale ,
rafale only lossing once while F22 more , complete B.S .
Some French or Rafale Fanbyoz can accept that , no one else in sane mind would .
I think should call up Gambit to blow of Rafale victory's