Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[BON PLAN]

This is a classic case of people seeing what they want to see.

But these are what the article EXPLICITLY states.

1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%. Its only 38%. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.

2. Dassault Aviation Company is not keen on transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause. and setting up production in India.

3. Govt. of India had to WORK AROUND this reluctance and find a different solution.

4. Snecma will now CLAIM credit of 1 billio $ after helping Kaveri come to fruition. This will not be any Actualy investment of 1 billion $ in Real money.


5. Dassault will be able to CLAIM 1 billion $ WHEN the Kaveri becomes ready after its help. So any actualy job creation will be only AFTER the Kaveri is compelted, Certified, Fitted on the aircraft, Aircraft then certified AND THEN when production begins. A good 8-10 years in the future.

6. Production will be in HAL so any jobs created will be in HAL.

7. MBDA will transfer tech to Astra and then Dassault can then CLAIM an offset of couple of hunder million $.

8. Again ANY job creation will be AFTER the missile is tested, certified, accpted by AF and THEN productin beings. Only this job creation will ALSO be in Bharat Dynamics, another PSU.

9. Spray Paint and coating technology will be transferd (Probably to HAL or maybe Reliance) and then Dassaut can again CLAIM offset for a coupld of hundred million $. Again NO ACTUAL INVESTMENT will be made by Dassault.

10. All in all the 'Offset' will allow for limited Tech transfer but will result in MINIMAL Dassault money being invested in India. ANY and All investements will be by Indian companies.

11. Any job creation will be in hundres not in thousands and most of them will be in PSU. Even then the priority will be to Re-Train existing staff, so it is unlikey any new jobs will be created.


12. These Offset will not be any real Monetary Investment, it will only be ToT of deemed equivalent and Claimed by Dassault.


13. Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased . ALL ToT will be for existing Indian projects Like LCA, Astra and Kaveri (Maybe AURA), not to build any more Rafale.



I hope NOW the 'fan boys' can get this through their thick skull and finally stop this public masturbation for more Rafales.



LOL.... NO MII of Rafale is going to happen. Ever.

Dassault is "only" the airframe manufacturer.
You can't ask all from DA. Thales, Safran and MBDA has a lot of work to do for Offest deal. I say the main work.

Finally This makes it perfectly clear that No more Rafale will be purchaased

we have readen this kind of sentences too many times, even in the near past, about the first purchase of Rafale.

But at the end they were purchased these first 36 !!!

So it's only clear for YOU. Some others on this forum (and on other forums) and me, are thinking there will be some more batchs.
Between you and me, don't you think strange india pay so much for plane accomodation and air bases upgrade only for 36 birds? it's only logical.

At least we won the first set (ie the first 36).

 

[Taygibay]

1. Of 7.87 Billion Euro, ONLY 3 Billion $ will be DEEMED invested in India. This is even less than 40%. Its only 38%. THIS is the real value of the Offset. (on paper). NOT Actually invested, ONLY Deemed Invested.

Just so fools don't get trapped by knaves :

-No one gets 100% offsets because not all contract sums have offsets attached.
​

For instance, if you pay x dollars to have your own kit mounted,
that x amount does not bring offsets as well it shouldn't. Think of
this logically and compare with a car on which the dealer gives you
a rebate. If you then want oversize rims with fat tires and a sound
system that can jump start earthquakes, they'll add those but the
rebate won't apply.

Same thing here; no offsets on changes and adaptations nor on fuel
... ETC.

Funnily enough, there is one such character on nearly all fora since the
deal was confirmed even far from India. If one was to measure success
by the hatred generated, Rafale would beat X-wing fighters & Death Stars.

Great day all, Tay.

 

[sathya]

@Good night, even i was against Rafale initially and supported investing in lca , but See 36 samples helping lca get engine radar paint etc help.

I have no regrets.

When deal of MII goes through.. hopefully in parrikar s term, we will get lot of goodies that are actually quite useful.

 

[GoodKnight]

Just so fools don't get trapped by knaves :

-No one gets 100% offsets because not all contract sums have offsets attached.
​

For instance, if you pay x dollars to have your own kit mounted,
that x amount does not bring offsets as well it shouldn't. Think of
this logically and compare with a car on which the dealer gives you
a rebate. If you then want oversize rims with fat tires and a sound
system that can jump start earthquakes, they'll add those but the
rebate won't apply.

Same thing here; no offsets on changes and adaptations nor on fuel
... ETC.

Funnily enough, there is one such character on nearly all fora since the
deal was confirmed even far from India. If one was to measure success
by the hatred generated, Rafale would beat X-wing fighters & Death Stars.

View attachment 342417​

Great day all, Tay.

Its funny you should say that because even that 38% offset is NOT going to be in Investment.

Its only going to be CLAIMED as offset for service rendered and technology offered.

This service is not even going to be billed at a 1:1 Ratio. Dassault will very well claim 1.5, 2 or even 3 to 5 times the value of the technology in their offset claim.

What is not clear is the Final DELIVERY that will constitute this 'offset' and what are the penalties that can be invoked for failure to full fill their end of the deal.

For e.g. what constitutes a successful Kaveri ? What are the time lines committed by Dassault to make it flyable and reliable. What are the parameters by which 'success' will be measured ? What is the ratio of the offset claim ? What is the milestones for offset implementation ?

Its better these things are in the open so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise.

@Good night, even i was against Rafale initially and supported investing in lca , but See 36 samples helping lca get engine radar paint etc help.

I have no regrets.

When deal of MII goes through.. hopefully in parrikar s term, we will get lot of goodies that are actually quite useful.

I have no regrets either, Its a good deal for India. Full mark to Parrikar and Modi for making this happen. I just hope they can now followup on the Offset and make sure that happens.

 

[Taygibay]

All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
You are looking for failure and expecting it from your writings.*

I prefer to work for and expect success.

GL Tay.

*Which by the way lack in logic :
"... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
You are looking for failure andsenndcting it from your writings.*

I prefer to work for and expect success.

GL Tay.

*Which by the way lack in logic :
"... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​

There are two types of people
1. One who are ready to discuss.
2. Those who want you to believe what they do.

Its useless to reason out to the second type.
Let them go past...

 

[GoodKnight]

All offsets include coefficients and we explained that before.
You are looking for failure and expecting it from your writings.*

I prefer to work for and expect success.

GL Tay.

*Which by the way lack in logic :
"... so that there will be no surprise when CAG publishes its report and catches everyone by surprise."​

These Multiples or coefficients you mention has not been released by any media or MoD statement. Its just speculation in pdf and as such is worth nothing.

I expect Dassalut to play it smart by half as it has repeatedly shown itself capable to doing, and find reasons to delay the offset and contest the offset arbitration in time.

The cost of the Mirage 2000 upgrade deal was a clear indicator to me about the way Dassaults angles to maximise profit and ignore the long game, not to mention its inability to work with HAL despite being its partner in Mirage 2000 upgrade.

In absence of any clarity about the offset, CAG will be looking to find loopholes that will cost political mileage to the Modi govt. in the future. So I am sure the clarity WILL be provided by the GoI in the near future.

 

[BON PLAN]

I just saw a rat crawl out of a hole......I wish I had some cheese.



Thales, Safran and MBDA have their work cut out, but the offset credit will be claimed by Dassault.

36+18 is the same as the Mirage 2000 deal in 1982 and you are witnessing History repeating itself. Back then it was a deal for 40 Mirages 2000.

Mirage 2000 was purchased to handle the pakistan (F-16), today Rafale is purchased to handle China. back then people dreamt of more Mirage 2000, today they dream of more Rafales.

French continue to make the same mistake and refuse to learn from the past. At least India learnt something from it and got a ToT commitment.

Maybe there is scope for a Indian Navy purchase. Let us see how that plays out in the future. DCNS just lost a lucrative Multi Billion $ deal for a repeat order of scorpene submarine, so I will not be holding my breath.

I'm sure the Rafale international team will make all the necessary efforts to fullfil the contract, and to pleased to the actual (and futur) main export customer of the bird.

 

[Taygibay]

yeah yeah we are fools wasting money to buy a plane for air shows only not nuclear deterrance

You just described most fighter buying nations! Canada, Sweden, Poland,
Brazil, all of the Arab states, Malaysia, Japan, Indonesia, Switzerland etc
calling them fools so that both them and I can tell you to keep your smilies ...

Really height of stupidity & naiveness from yourside

... insults and lack of logic to yourself hence, sorry!

Have a great life, Tay.

 

[DrSomnath999]

The problem with you my friend is you just can't understand my post & sorry I just can't help if you can't understand my post.

CHEERS

 

[BON PLAN]

french Mirage 2000N was intially armed with those kind of bombs for nuclear deterrrent as they carried a pair of AN.52 free-fall nuclear bombs before the ASMP was ready.

Are you sure?
1) two bombs means no external tanks (or a single small one on centerline)......
2) never read something or see Mirage 2000N in nuclear config without ASMP ....
3) ASMP was operationnal in 1986. At those time it was under Mirage 4. Mirage 2000N mk1 was ready in 1988, so after first AMPA ready.

That is yet to be seen. But safran have worked with the HAL before to make the shakti engine and HAL experience was not at all a happy one or as a satisfied customer.

Bro,
When you see the time it takes to HAL to developp your Tejas, you can have some questionning about the real skill of HAL.... isnt't it?
Maybe it was not the entire fault of Safran....

 

[BON PLAN]

..... who told you that its HAL who developed Tejas ?

HAL is only the Production Agency, not the developer. lol.

The fact remains that HAL designed the entire transmission themselves and has now conducted the first flight of the LUH without any help from Safran. In fact Safran came back to HAL with a reduced quote when HAL dumped them, but HAL rejected it. By then HAL had already made a judgement call about trusting Safran again.

And this is the end result,

OK.
I can make the same post about the ability of HAL the producer to made only 8 plane a year....

Why do you think Dassault didn't want to work with HAL when it was intended to produce 108 Rafale in India ? HAL is a lazy company.

 

[GoodKnight]

OK.
I can make the same post about the ability of HAL the producer to made only 8 plane a year....

Why do you think Dassault didn't want to work with HAL when it was intended to produce 108 Rafale in India ? HAL is a lazy company.

You can make any number of foolish posts as you like, its a free forum.

HAL can produce even 100 LCA per year if there is a demand. Its not a rocket science to increase the production line. Its a simple matter of finding the Optimum Production Level. Anyone with even a basic understanding of production will know this.

Its HAL who refused to work with Dassault unless Dassault offers iron clad Guarantees. Only Dassault backed out of that.

HAL will go on to produce PAK FA, LCA, Dhruv, LUH, HAWK, Su 30 MKI ,IJT and Upgrade the Mig 29, Jaguar and Mirage 2000. While Dassault won the MMRCA only to loose it due to its short slightness.

So the evidence do not show HAL's laziness, its shows Dassaults stupidity.

 

[Taygibay]

Recently, insults gained a foothold in this thread.
It may be worth noting that

A- It is prohibited by forum rules :

FORUM RULES AND REGULATIONS

All users are expected to abide by our rules irrespective of their seniority/nationality/etc. Inability to follow the rules not only can give you temporary bans but also permanent ones.
​

BE RESPECTFUL​

The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.
​

RANTING IS PROHIBITED​

A rant is a post which is long-winded, redundant and filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.​

PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE PROHIBITED​

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated.
​

RACISM AND OTHER “…isms”.​

No racist posts are allowed or other posts that are designed to put people down based on their nationality/sex/color/creed/etc.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/forum-rules-and-regulations.92653/#ixzz4MlbpmgMv
​

B- Profanity almost always hides the inability to argue without it
either because the point is flawed or the individual is, i.e. a crutch!

Tay.

 

[GuardianRED]