Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

So any and all criticism is fair in this case.

Shoot! Until that phrase, I thought you were the new guy with decent logic.
Oh well!

I'll still correct your other exaggerated claim though :

Finally about Rafale, since the requirement for the offset was 50% and so far there is only a clear roadmap and time line for 20% offset, there is much scope for criticism.

Where did you get that impression from?
Around 3B € is the number for offsets. How is that 20% of the deal's worth?

Would you accept ANY AND ALL CRITICISM OF INDIA based on unsubstantiated claims?
Cuz I won't for the Rafale.

Good day and GL, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".

Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.

seen !

Same sources explain us two weeks ago that India will never baught Rafale ......

 

[Tejasvinam]

Shoot! Until that phrase, I thought you were the new guy with decent logic.
Oh well!

I'll still correct your other exaggerated claim though :

Where did you get that impression from?
Around 3B € is the number for offsets. How is that 20% of the deal's worth?

Would you accept ANY AND ALL CRITICISM OF INDIA based on unsubstantiated claims?
Cuz I won't for the Rafale.

Good day and GL, Tay.

I am not seeking a character certificate from you, so spare us the drama.

The deal size is 7.8 Billion Euro so 50% of that is 3.9 Billion €.

Of course I expect financial jugglery to make it 3b € and ample 'reasons' will be provided no doubt.

That is a cool 0.9 b € shaved off the offset already.

Feel free to provide links that gives a clear RoadMap and TimeLines for how, when and where the offset is going to be implement. That should take care of the criticism, right ? I am waiting.

 

[randomradio]

There is no 'good stuff' and 'bad stuff', that is like saying 'good terrorism' and 'bad terrorism'. Everything and everybody is open to criticism.

The days of Nehru-gandhi monopoly and interference in Indian policy and process is long gone. India is now a mature democracy, not a fledgling democracy like in the past.

Also Indian institutions are now firmly established and have undergone trial by fire during the 'Emergency' and has come out stronger for it.

Finally about Rafale, since the requirement for the offset was 50% and so far there is only a clear roadmap and time line for 20% offset, there is much scope for criticism. There is a timeline for delivery of aircraft that is made public, but there is a mysterious silence on the documented road-map and TIMELINE for implementation of the offset. This again opens it up for strong criticism.

Not to mention that the IAF requirement of 126 aircraft's is still to be firmly decided and is still open for consideration.

So any and all criticism is fair in this case. You do not have to like it, but you have to accept it.

"Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general."

 

[Tejasvinam]

"Most of the people who criticize the Rafale have no clue about fighter aircraft in general."

...But they do have common sense.

Nobody is an expert on anything, some just know more than others, some less. Most people just fake their expertise. That is just the way the world works.

 

[randomradio]

Feel free to provide links that gives a clear RoadMap and TimeLines for how, when and where the offset is going to be implement. That should take care of the criticism, right ? I am waiting.

Who are you to ask that? If you are really interested then open a RTI to the MoD. They will reject it, but you are at least going through the correct process.

Rafale is way above criticism as far as the IAF is concerned, been that way since 2011.

And you are confused between Rafale and govt procedures. Just because the govt has zero interest in giving away information of national importance doesn't mean the decision can be criticized. The same with providing proof of surgical strikes. When the time comes, the govt will give us some limited information. That won't be to the satisfaction of all, but you'll have to live with it.

Also, Rafale has nothing to do with offsets or govt procedures.

...But they do have common sense.

Nobody is an expert on anything, some just know more than others, some less. Most people just fake their expertise. That is just the way the world works.

I don't think you understand, which is really not surprising. What I'm saying is if you have knowledge in aviation, you won't be able to find good enough reasons to criticize the Rafale.

So only the 'clueless' criticize Rafale, which I'm actually perfectly fine with because their opinions don't matter.

 

[Tejasvinam]

Who are you to ask that? If you are really interested then open a RTI to the MoD. They will reject it, but you are at least going through the correct process.

Rafale is way above criticism as far as the IAF is concerned, been that way since 2011.

And you are confused between Rafale and govt procedures. Just because the govt has zero interest in giving away information of national importance doesn't mean the decision can be criticized. The same with providing proof of surgical strikes. When the time comes, the govt will give us some limited information. That won't be to the satisfaction of all, but you'll have to live with it.

Also, Rafale has nothing to do with offsets or govt procedures.

I do not need unsolicited advice on how I should go around doing my business. That is just a cheap personal attack.

IAF views on Rafale are quite well known since they have gone over and beyond the call of duty to articulate it.

I refuse to see things in isolation like the IAF does. I refuse to be a frog in the well while disguising oneself as an 'expert' frog in the well.

If Dassault is bothered about criticism then let them provide the roadMap and Time Line for offset implementation, or let them (and their supporters) forever hold their silence.

If GoI has made claims about the surgical strike then it owns it to the people to provide proof too. Else they should have kept their mouth shut. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do. Since Rafale is intimately tied to the Offset program of billions of $, they are accountable whether you like it or not. There is going to be questions and criticism raised and it would be naive to expect everyone to just fall down dead just because you don't like to hear the POV.

I don't think you understand, which is really not surprising. What I'm saying is if you have knowledge in aviation, you won't be able to find good enough reasons to criticize the Rafale.

So only the 'clueless' criticize Rafale, which I'm actually perfectly fine with because their opinions don't matter.

lol. PDF is full of self styled 'experts' so feel free to take their opinion and feel free to ignore the criticism too.

The whole problem is when you cannot handle the criticism and want to play judge and jury as to who has the divine right to criticise and insist of giving certificates of 'expertise' that gives them right to criticise Rafale.

 

[randomradio]

I do not need unsolicited advice on how I should go around doing my business. That is just a cheap personal attack.

So you want information, and when I provide the procedure to try and get said information, you don't want it. Make up your mind.

I refuse to see things in isolation like the IAF does. I refuse to be a frog in the well while disguising oneself as an 'expert' frog in the well.

Unfortunately, you are a frog that's in the womb of a frog that lives in the well.

If Dassault is bothered about criticism then let them provide the roadMap and Time Line for offset implementation, or let them (and their supporters) forever hold their silence.

They are not allowed to. Contract obligations.

If GoI has made claims about the surgical strike then it owns it to the people to provide proof too. Else they should have kept their mouth shut. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

They have no obligation to. When it comes to national security, the govt 'makes' the cake, and eats it.

Your duty as a citizen is to accept the govt line and parrot it as the truth in all matters of national security. There are checks and balances within the govt that ensures the govt reports the truth, the biggest being elections. We are a democracy. You are free to vote for any other party if you think the govt is lying.

I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do. Since Rafale is intimately tied to the Offset program of billions of $, they are accountable whether you like it or not. There is going to be questions and criticism raised and it would be naive to expect everyone to just fall down dead just because you don't like to hear the POV.

The 'Rafale deal' is not the 'Rafale'. 'Offsets' isn't the 'Rafale'. You still haven't understood. You are only looking at India's Rafale deal. That wasn't my point when I said, "Most of the people who criticize the 'Rafale' have no clue about fighter aircraft in general." This applies to the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans and even the French.

As far as criticizing the 'Rafale deal' is concerned, you can wholeheartedly do that, nobody said otherwise. But doing so is simply pointless.

The whole problem is when you cannot handle the criticism and want to play judge and jury as to who has the divine right to criticise and insist of giving certificates of 'expertise' that gives them right to criticise Rafale.

But that's how national security is. The citizen doesn't get an opinion.

Do you know your phone calls and messages are all automatically tapped and recorded by the govt? Blogs, forums, photos etc are monitored by Indian intelligence. Even your status message on Facebook is monitored.

Why else do you think the Pakistanis are using war pigeons for communication?

 

[Tejasvinam]

So you want information, and when I provide the procedure to try and get said information, you don't want it. Make up your mind.
Unfortunately, you are a frog that's in the womb of a frog that lives in the well.

I have all the information I need to make up my mind and express my opinion. It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others.

It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth.

They are not allowed to. Contract obligations.
They have no obligation to. When it comes to national security, the govt 'makes' the cake, and eats it.

Rubbish. The govt. needs to seek re-election every 5 years, so every claim they make needs to be verified. That is why on matters of "national security" most govt. keep their trap shut. Or they offer proof like they did for Osama bin laden's assassination.

The govt. shot itself in its foot when it went about making claims for which they were in no position to offer any proof. They are now trying to mask this goof up by making high pitch noise about patriotism. Worse they are in no position to follow up on that surgical strike and continue that effort to keep the people safe.

People from punjab border are forced to leave their homes to to this 'surgical strike' and GoI has been caught unprepared to handle this after effect.

So No, they do not get to eat the cake. It looks like the cake is going to be smeared all over their face.

Your duty as a citizen is to accept the govt line and parrot it as the truth in all matters of national security. There are checks and balances within the govt that ensures the govt reports the truth, the biggest being elections. We are a democracy. You are free to vote for any other party if you think the govt is lying.

More Rubbish. I have no duty to accept anything the govt. tells me on blind faith alone.

That may be true in a Dictatorship, its a laughable concept in a multi party democracy. Govt. all over the world lie about matters of National security and cook up all sorts of lies to cover its mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth. Only a fool would think otherwise.

The 'Rafale deal' is not the 'Rafale'. 'Offsets' isn't the 'Rafale'. You still haven't understood. You are only looking at India's Rafale deal. That wasn't my point when I said, "Most of the people who criticize the 'Rafale' have no clue about fighter aircraft in general." This applies to the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans and even the French.

As far as criticizing the 'Rafale deal' is concerned, you can wholeheartedly do that, nobody said otherwise. But doing so is simply pointless.

I don't care about the Malaysians, Canadians, Americans etc. I only care about India and Indians. Indians is the only criticism that matter to me for most parts. Unlike you, I do not hold a brief for Dassault since they are neither Indian nor publicly traded in India nor do they hire Indians in large numbers.

But that's how national security is. The citizen doesn't get an opinion.

Do you know your phone calls and messages are all automatically tapped and recorded by the govt? Blogs, forums, photos etc are monitored by Indian intelligence. Even your status message on Facebook is monitored.

Why else do you think the Pakistanis are using war pigeons for communication?

Wrong. Citizens ALWAYS get an opinion, ESPECIALLY in matters of national security.

Its laughable to say that my phones and messages are tapped and recorded. Maybe in the US and China, not in India. Indian resources and expertise are not sufficient for such massive monitoring. You have been watching too many hollywood productions and conspiracy theories.

Only certain people are monitored, usually those who's name come up during investigations.

 

[Gessler]

@Tejasvinam

There was an article in The Wire recently...

...Reliance Defence that will execute a decent portion of the Rs. 20,000 – Rs. 30,000 crore that will flow in as a result of the Rafale deal...

http://thewire.in/70450/reliance-defence-wins-big-aftermath-rafale-deal/

Convert that into Euros and you get between 2.7 to 4 billions. The maximum here is exactly as what was expected under a deal worth 7.87 billions. Other than Reliance contract, the rest of the offsets are not yet finalized so jumping up and down just yet is extremely premature.

Besides, what do you think Dassault, MBDA, Thales or Safran will get by denying offsets to India? That's bad business for them - a production line in India will benefit the French industry as well, and will add to their international supply chain...the same way how Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus & Sikorsky do.

You need to start looking at the bigger picture and stop thinking that every single country out there has nothing to do except try to hurt or damage India in some way or the other.

 

[Gessler]

Oo, people fighting on the Internet.

Now, ain't that the reason why this forum is popular.

Oh, hey. I know you

The internet is a small place.

 

[Athen]

now that rafale deal is done ... how about we close this thread and start new one(ie there is no tender anymore)!!

 

[Gessler]

now that rafale deal is done ... how about we close this thread and start new one(ie there is no tender anymore)!!

No need...just get a Mod to remove "tender" from the title and we're good. I want to see this thread hit 1,000 pages.

 

[halloweene]

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene

Please,N joy.

View attachment 341085

I see you liked Stephane's compendium

 

[randomradio]

I have all the information I need to make up my mind and express my opinion. It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others.

It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth.



Rubbish. The govt. needs to seek re-election every 5 years, so every claim they make needs to be verified. That is why on matters of "national security" most govt. keep their trap shut. Or they offer proof like they did for Osama bin laden's assassination.

The govt. shot itself in its foot when it went about making claims for which they were in no position to offer any proof. They are now trying to mask this goof up by making high pitch noise about patriotism. Worse they are in no position to follow up on that surgical strike and continue that effort to keep the people safe.

People from punjab border are forced to leave their homes to to this 'surgical strike' and GoI has been caught unprepared to handle this after effect.

So No, they do not get to eat the cake. It looks like the cake is going to be smeared all over their face.



More Rubbish. I have no duty to accept anything the govt. tells me on blind faith alone.

That may be true in a Dictatorship, its a laughable concept in a multi party democracy. Govt. all over the world lie about matters of National security and cook up all sorts of lies to cover its mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth. Only a fool would think otherwise.

So the govt should come down to your standards?

Its laughable to say that my phones and messages are tapped and recorded. Maybe in the US and China, not in India. Indian resources and expertise are not sufficient for such massive monitoring.
Only certain people are monitored, usually those who's name come up during investigations.

The UPA defended NSA's PRISM. I think India was the only country that defended PRISM. Something for you to figure out.