Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Athen]

No need...just get a Mod to remove "tender" from the title and we're good. I want to see this thread hit 1,000 pages.

good enough!!!

 

[Tejasvinam]

@Tejasvinam

There was an article in The Wire recently...

Convert that into Euros and you get between 2.7 to 4 billions. The maximum here is exactly as what was expected under a deal worth 7.87 billions. Other than Reliance contract, the rest of the offsets are not yet finalized so jumping up and down just yet is extremely premature.

Besides, what do you think Dassault, MBDA, Thales or Safran will get by denying offsets to India? That's bad business for them - a production line in India will benefit the French industry as well, and will add to their international supply chain...the same way how Lockheed, Boeing, Airbus & Sikorsky do.

You need to start looking at the bigger picture and stop thinking that every single country out there has nothing to do except try to hurt or damage India in some way or the other.

Only monkeys "jump up and down". So is that what you are insinuating ? If so there goes your 'objective' analysis along with your credibility, straight out of the window. Its more a reflection on your infantile thinking than mine.

Second, since there is NO Road-map and Timeline for the offset as per your own admission, every criticism about it is valid unless prove otherwise.

Third, Boeing is already on record in trying to wriggle out of its offset commitment. They are yet to take any action for Billions of $ worth of offset that was to be executed YESTERDAY. Do you know what is Depreciation ? Do you know what is the 'Time Value of Money" ?

Every $ that needed to be spent TODAY decreases in value with time. That money spent tomorrow is worth Less and will continue to decrease in value with every passing date.

So any offset that is going to be implemented 5 years down the line is worth that much less in the real world.

The history of offset obligations in India is there for all to see and learn. And for those like you who refuse to learn from history, History will repeat itself till you learn from it. I suggest you read the CAG report on it.

Every country other there is looking out for their own, and will wriggle out of their contract at the first opportunity. If they wanted to use India for their supply chain, they would have done it ages ago, with or without Rafale. Anything made in India would cost at least 1/3 of what it will cost to make in Europe. Still how many 'supply chain' vendors do you find in India ?

Any idea where those two Italian marines are ? the same guys who so heroically shot dead two Indian fishermen in cold blood ? You know the stand EU took on them ? The only country that will look out for India, is India. The rest will queue up to have 'Embargo' on us as they did for the last 50 years and offer platitudes in exchange which gullible fools will lap it up as manna from heaven.

 

[randomradio]

https://defence.pk/threads/rafael-a...e-systems-provision-for-indian-rafale.453990/

 

[Louiq XIV]

@Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @BON PLAN @Louiq XIV @halloweene

Please,N joy.

View attachment 341085

Yeah I've seen that epic fail from this bunch of oracles. Epic fail for them and can't wait to see our Indian friends flying our birds. That mix promise to be good

 

[Taygibay]

Nobody is an expert on anything

Most people just fake their expertise

That is just the way the world works.

I have no problem living with limited knowledge and criticism, but you and others do.

PDF is full of self styled 'experts'

It is you who seems to have a stomach ache that goes with my opinion or with the opinion of others.
It is you who is offering unsolicited advice and wild metaphors to cover up your inability to handle the truth

And strikingly in opposition,

Govts. all over the world lie about matters of National security and cook up all sorts of lies to cover its mistakes and inadequacies. That is a universal truth

Wrong. Citizens ALWAYS get an opinion, ESPECIALLY in matters of national security.

​

Darn, who was that angry young man?
And BTW, thanks for handling that gracefully enough, RandomR.
I guess explaining that the offset part is still under discussion as I
intended to and someone mentioned would not have cut it.

It goes to show that Ankit Kumar was right as Athen* already said.

Not everyone is able to digest the Rafale deal. I have confirmed alert about atleast 2 leading news portals soon ( by this night ) coming with articles about India not likely to buy more Rafale due to high costs according to "" Government Official "", OR " NO more Rafales than the 36, at this moment as IAF wants a light aircraft ".

Remember me when within 24 hours you see it.

24 hours is too long for most people's patience. Myself, I'd rather wait 6 months
to have pertinent infos on the offsets and the standard than hold baseless or
putative convos, especially after waiting 15 years for 36 planes so far ...

Thanks Gessler too for that top of page explanation and good day all, Tay.

P.S. * And Bon-Plan.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

seen !

Same sources explain us two weeks ago that India will never baught Rafale ......

Earlier we may be concerned with unnamed sources- But this Govt- has put a lid on leaks- so only official can be taken as source- But this has caused the media to shoot blind and create confusions with speculations and unnamed sources-

 

[PARIKRAMA]

All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..

India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..

Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..

That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..

Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project

Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..

Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times

 

[GuardianRED]

All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..

India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..

Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..

That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..

Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project

Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..

Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times

Yes we need news to keep this thread active

Q: Would an existing Sq (or disbanded) would be reformed for the rafales or a new squadron be named? If the latter , why not we (for fun) put forward some names

To start the game

'117th" Squadron "The Valkyries" - "Terrors of the Sky"

Anyone next?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

All r silent at the moment.. may be this week completely.. the MOD machinery is working as usual but not much will come out so I don't knw if any source is saying anything at all.. mostly things will go hot again next week onwards..

India is lining a war chest of humongous proportions.. this October will see huge deals..

Rafale will see more hot action as well.. brace up for another roller coaster ride.... With Strategic Partnership spelt out in public, agreements under offset formal signature are lined up now.. DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP when in December the big review of fleet and next phase of ordering plan is mobilised..

That's the time MII will gain steam and decision for that will culminate post hectic negotiations and hard bargaining..

Rafale MiI is going to get us the partial codes and technological know how and local production at a much higher level. India is finally looking at metallurgy level stuff to ensure the MIC gets upgraded.. there is a strong buzz that Indian MIC needs this capability to make Tejas a much more potent platform again mooted internally (not by outsiders on payroll) .. and also for its future platforms and a UCAV project

Come January selection process for first 3 pilots will start.. it's gonna be a massive shootout.. among the ones will be some which are used for strategic package delivery squadrons.. so out of 3 at least 1 will be from that side as well.. these folks will be then planned to move to France for the training part along with 6 other ppl..

Lots of heartburn will come.. sit relax and see what happens.. the staunch supporter of Rafale now is DM MP himself.. once and for all he is finally in sync with IAF and is clear what he wants in big number and at what price under MII. Yet he will continue playing devil's advocate and making all other dance to his pied Piper tunes.. so enjoy the coming times

We have some idea of the Indian Rafale configuration, what would be interesting is to know what will be included in thee other posts of the package...

 

[Taygibay]

Lots of heartburn will come..

Are you suggesting that India will give a Rafale indigestion to naysayers?
Interesting!!! Let' see!

It would be great if you can wait 6 months to 1 year for payments for that Rafale. or will you insist on Payment on delivery and even some advance ?

Why do I get the feeling that you do not plan to put the money where your mouth is ?

Why, mate? Why would even the buyer delay such a payment?
An advance is a sort of insurance that work will begin immediately.

Without it, buyer could start work and find out by first payment time
that the buyer can't or won't pay. Without it, the seller could worry
that unforeseen events in the seller's country would delay work.

Let me tell you a small story that shows why I truly don't care personally :

When mountain biking came along, I was an early convert and began
getting more complex bikes as they and I got better. On the first very big
rig built to my specs and not factory, I payed in terms and broke that bike
a year later trying to expand modestly the limits of the sport ...
But I kept paying for it for 22 more months.
I got 2 more such machines since and in both cases, payed every part on
delivery stocking them to build time and when the bikes got off the stand
after assembly went shredding in complete peace of mind, without as our
PariK would say : fear of the heartburn ... that followed that first time.

Run your business tight : pay cash when possible and make your profit on
money that is actually yours, after having earned it.

Besides, we can link this to what that angry young man was complaining
about initially ( ToT amount ) as both are valid but unnecessary concerns
and do so using PariK's last post.

DA team will wind it up within next 30 days or less versus IGA provision of 6 months.. this move practically will allow massive capability in the hands of DM MP

That is exactly what Dassault is great at! In this case, that quick reaction
time is made easier because the plan exists for more planes to come.
Having had the discussions on MII running concurrently means that India
actually has Dassault in a position that forces them to deliver fast and well.
Any delay or error could impact MII numbers if not MII altogether.
Do you really think they want to screw that up?

In doing a good job, they also as PariK said give more elbow room for MP
to extract from the GtoG deal socio-politic approval for the MII. Check out
the way GoI is smoothing media frenzy which IMHoO is the best part of the
whole affair so far for a local. Dassault helps by being ready to provide now.

I'm always surprised that some people can't see the writing on the wall about
Rafale MMI so in case that is you too :

​

• Dassault will set up shop in India. "Il y a une grosse demande de la part de l'armée indienne et tout particulièrement de l'armée de l'air. Donc on se prépare aussi à un grand futur. C'est pourquoi on souhaite avoir des partenariats très forts avec les Indiens dès aujourd'hui", a confié M. Trappier. Ce contrat va "amorcer une coopération forte en Inde avec le développement du 'make in India'. On souhaite s'installer en Inde pour faire travailler les Indiens", a-t-il ajouté. http://www.boursorama.com/actualite...ult-aviation-c5e9e1a10c322f438639a21607f8f3fd​
• Trappier even said recently that the Indian presence of Dassault would follow the dual model of civilian and military productions as it is the most viable industrial ecosystem which he wouldn't say if he planned to be there for a short term.​
• If a plant is built in India but the deal is for planes all made in France, what will that plant make?​
• Ergo, any offset investment not made in research is for follow-up orders. MII is coming.​

So honestly, what you asked for, triple zero financing, works for cars but the Raffy ain't no Nano!

Guardian, do you have the list of inactive squadrons traditional names?
It would help non-desi folks in playing your game.
Cuz if I dream up 777th Sqdn "Arcturian Unicorn Octopii" -"Wrath of the Galaxy"
and it already existed in IAF line-up, I'd be disappointed. Not surprised but still disappointed.

Great day all, Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

@PARIKRAMA is the base finalised yet ? Someone hinted me by December either Jodhpur or Gwalior would be chosen.

 

[Taygibay]

That remains my POV unless future occurrence convinces me otherwise.

And it's entirely allowed / your right to think so.

Good day to you, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

The way you expect payment on delivery and a partial payment even before delivery, the offset also needs to be implemented as per a strict time line that demonstrates good faith.

IN experience with DCNS does not inspire much confidence, neither does the IAF experience with Boeing.

If you are suggesting that Dassault will be 'different', I remain skeptical based on history. But it is likely the DM MP will dangle the carrot of more orders to ensure the offset is implement on or before expected date.

Point to be noted is that its the prospect of future order that will drive the offset implementation, not good faith or the need for honouring the contract or your word. That remains my POV unless future occurrence convinces me otherwise.

Payment will be made thrice after advance. 15% within 30 days of contract signature. And after that two more payments at specific intervals as deliveries start, followed by the last payment after delivery.

 

[randomradio]

Good, Now tell me when the offset amount will be spent in India. How many days after contract signing and what are the milestones for making that investments. If the milestones are not reached, what is the penalty.

First learn manners. No one here has any obligation to tell you anything.

 

[Rupeshkumar]

Payment will be made thrice after advance. 15% within 30 days of contract signature. And after that two more payments at specific intervals as deliveries start, followed by the last payment after delivery.

I wonder if our babus will ask for the bribes to process the cheques/payment transfer faster ?