Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[cerberus]

So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Good Day all!

300 MKI ordered More Less HAL Confirmed this
RFI Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”

REF: HAL/CD/617(RFI-SU-30 MKI)/2015 DATE: 16/07/2015



Sub: Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”

1. Background

1.1. Sukhoi-30 MkI is a twin seat, twin engine supersonic multipurpose fighter aircraft capable of day and night flying under all weather condition. The aircraft is powered by two powerful AL-31 FP engines with high thrust vectoring capability, fly-by-wire control in all axes, capability for in-flight refueling among other advanced features.HAL is manufacturing Su-30 MkI Aircraft under license from Russia.

1.2 Manufacture & overhaul of the Su-30MkI is carried out at HAL’s Aircraft Manufacturing Division at Nasik and the AL-31FP engine at Sukhoi Engine Division at Koraput. Various system LRUs are manufactured and repaired / serviced at HAL.

1.3 This fighterfleet of around 300 would need to be continuously maintained / serviced for next 30+ years.



2. Scope of ‘Make in India’programme for SU-30 MKI

2.1 This fighter fleet of Sukhoi numbering around 300 needs to be continuously kept flying fit for over three decades. HAL has established manufacturing and MRO facilities through ToT from Russia. There are further manufacturing and MRO technologies which have not been transferred under ToT. List of items / LRUs involved is placed at Annexure 1. In the light of long term support these technologies are to be established in the Country.Russian side / OEMs have expressed their willingness to transfer such Technologies to the Indian Industry.

2.2 In support of the above requirement a ‘MAKE IN INDIA’ conference is being organized at Moscow during MAKS Airshow (August 25th to August 30th) to facilitate B2B meetings between Indian industry and Russian OEMs.

2.3 Due to paucity of time, HAL is publishing the requirements under “Make in India” link in www.hal-india.com website. Indian vendors are requested to go through and respond directly to General Manager (Integrated Material Management), Corporate Office as per the procedure described in para 3.

2.4 Indian Vendors will have to visit Russia at their own cost for the “MAKS Airshow”. During the interaction with Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), discussions can take place for understanding the technology and finalise a Business Cooperation model.



3. Procedure for Response:

The interested firms must fill the form of response as given in Appendix-A. The filled-in form along with required documents should be submittedto General Manager (IMM) through e-mail id: tender.co@hal-india.com latest by 24thJuly 2015, 10:00 Hrs. This email id should not be used for any other correspondence. For correspondence / clarifications,e-mailid: imm1@hal-india.com is to be used.






Appendix-A
INFORMATION TO BE SUBMITTTED BY THE INTERESTED FIRMS

1. Name of the Firm :
2. CIN
3. Contact Details:

· Name of the Contact Person:
· Designation:
· Postal Address:
· Telephone / Mob. no.:
· Fax no.:
· E-mail address:

4. Other details:

· Present business portfolio:
· Annual Turnover for last 3 years:
· No of employees in the Firm:
· Details of manufacturing infrastructure:

5. It may be noted that the following requirement need to be fulfilled in future

a) Firms may need to obtain necessary approvals from Govt. agencies.
b) Firms may be required to create necessary infrastructure (Land / Building / Plant & Machinery etc..)
c) Firms are ready to obtain certifications from Airworthiness agencies (DGAQA / CEMILAC)
d) Firms are ready to obtain AS 9100C Certification

6. Any experience in Defence manufacturing:

If yes, please provide details.

7. Any other relevant information:

8. Declaration:It is certified that the above information is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.




(Authorized Signatory)
Seal of the Company


This information is collected only to facilitate B2B meetings under MAKE IN INDIA during MAKS Airshow 2015 at Moscow, Russia.

http://www.hal-india.com/Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”/M__241

 

[kaykay]

So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Good Day all!

If past IAF chief is to be believed, he said "13-14 MKI squadron" Lets assume 14 squadron as it makes sense. 19*14= 266.( Out of these 266 aircrafts, 42 aircrafts will be for reserve).

 

[Abingdonboy]

Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....

**************************

From another forum, about MII

http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717

MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???

This is a good idea.

I cant understand why are we planning to spend another $50 Billion on Rafales ( if reports of MII are true) when clearly this money can be used else where.

1)$50bn is a made up figure
2) why India needs these planes? Because the world is what it is, investing in security is not a luxury but a necessity. Weakness is a destabilising factor and invites hostility. The first duty of any democratic government is the security of its people.

 

[jha]

1)$50bn is a made up figure
2) why India needs these planes? Because the world is what it is, investing in security is not a luxury but a necessity. Weakness is a destabilising factor and invites hostility. The first duty of any democratic government is the security of its people.

If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.

 

[R!CK]

If not 50, then 40 ? Still a very very big figure to invest importing a foreign plane.

Sadly that's the price we pay for sleeping comfortably at night without worrying about an unexpected war. Even nukes are a defining factor in several major conflicts, otherwise US would have attacked Russia and India would have attacked Pakistan over small issues. But let's all hope we have better days ahead.

Good Day!

 

[Sliver]

did India delay inking the deal with France until it got into MTCR for the SCALP?

 

[randomradio]

So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Good Day all!

I completely forgot we lost 6. Thanks for reminding.

We will have 13.5 squadrons in 2019.

did India delay inking the deal with France until it got into MTCR for the SCALP?

No, the delay was not related to the MTCR at all.

 

[zambino]

What about Brimstone missile? Iaf will get it or not? If not which air to ground missile india will buy? Maverick??

 

[Agent_47]

So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Good Day all!

During last press conference IAF chief said total MKI sq will be 13 not 15 as previously indicated. It might be because of transfer of 2 sq to SFC.

300 MKI ordered More Less HAL Confirmed this
RFI Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”

REF: HAL/CD/617(RFI-SU-30 MKI)/2015 DATE: 16/07/2015



Sub: Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”

1. Background

1.1. Sukhoi-30 MkI is a twin seat, twin engine supersonic multipurpose fighter aircraft capable of day and night flying under all weather condition. The aircraft is powered by two powerful AL-31 FP engines with high thrust vectoring capability, fly-by-wire control in all axes, capability for in-flight refueling among other advanced features.HAL is manufacturing Su-30 MkI Aircraft under license from Russia.

1.2 Manufacture & overhaul of the Su-30MkI is carried out at HAL’s Aircraft Manufacturing Division at Nasik and the AL-31FP engine at Sukhoi Engine Division at Koraput. Various system LRUs are manufactured and repaired / serviced at HAL.

1.3 This fighterfleet of around 300 would need to be continuously maintained / serviced for next 30+ years.



2. Scope of ‘Make in India’programme for SU-30 MKI

2.1 This fighter fleet of Sukhoi numbering around 300 needs to be continuously kept flying fit for over three decades. HAL has established manufacturing and MRO facilities through ToT from Russia. There are further manufacturing and MRO technologies which have not been transferred under ToT. List of items / LRUs involved is placed at Annexure 1. In the light of long term support these technologies are to be established in the Country.Russian side / OEMs have expressed their willingness to transfer such Technologies to the Indian Industry.

2.2 In support of the above requirement a ‘MAKE IN INDIA’ conference is being organized at Moscow during MAKS Airshow (August 25th to August 30th) to facilitate B2B meetings between Indian industry and Russian OEMs.

2.3 Due to paucity of time, HAL is publishing the requirements under “Make in India” link in www.hal-india.com website. Indian vendors are requested to go through and respond directly to General Manager (Integrated Material Management), Corporate Office as per the procedure described in para 3.

2.4 Indian Vendors will have to visit Russia at their own cost for the “MAKS Airshow”. During the interaction with Russian Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), discussions can take place for understanding the technology and finalise a Business Cooperation model.



3. Procedure for Response:

The interested firms must fill the form of response as given in Appendix-A. The filled-in form along with required documents should be submittedto General Manager (IMM) through e-mail id: tender.co@hal-india.com latest by 24thJuly 2015, 10:00 Hrs. This email id should not be used for any other correspondence. For correspondence / clarifications,e-mailid: imm1@hal-india.com is to be used.






Appendix-A
INFORMATION TO BE SUBMITTTED BY THE INTERESTED FIRMS

1. Name of the Firm :
2. CIN
3. Contact Details:

· Name of the Contact Person:
· Designation:
· Postal Address:
· Telephone / Mob. no.:
· Fax no.:
· E-mail address:

4. Other details:

· Present business portfolio:
· Annual Turnover for last 3 years:
· No of employees in the Firm:
· Details of manufacturing infrastructure:

5. It may be noted that the following requirement need to be fulfilled in future

a) Firms may need to obtain necessary approvals from Govt. agencies.
b) Firms may be required to create necessary infrastructure (Land / Building / Plant & Machinery etc..)
c) Firms are ready to obtain certifications from Airworthiness agencies (DGAQA / CEMILAC)
d) Firms are ready to obtain AS 9100C Certification

6. Any experience in Defence manufacturing:

If yes, please provide details.

7. Any other relevant information:

8. Declaration:It is certified that the above information is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.




(Authorized Signatory)
Seal of the Company


This information is collected only to facilitate B2B meetings under MAKE IN INDIA during MAKS Airshow 2015 at Moscow, Russia.

http://www.hal-india.com/Invitation for “Empanelling Vendors for Make in India Programme for SU-30 MkI”/M__241

This might be for MRO being setup, nothing to do with more orders. HAL don't commit to anything without actual confirmation.

 

[Sliver]

@randomradio @PARIKRAMA

India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
or
2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
or
3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal

SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)

 

[Agent_47]

@randomradio @PARIKRAMA

India would not get SCALP (storm shadow) unless its a signatory for MTCR. this would mean:
1) the negotiations for SCALP were on going while India was working on MTCR (most likely)
or
2) India started negotiation on SCALP after MTCR (high unlikely given the pace of Indian decision making on weapons procurement)
or
3) there is no SCALP involved in the deal

SCALP range > 300 km (limit for MTCR non signatories)

You do understand that we signed MTCR rite?

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Well JF 17 is a great achievement of Pakistan along with the help of China, I am not taking that away from you. It is a very good fighter capable of BVR and smart munitions and above all it is sanction free. But the problem with India is it is not a valid fighter in the present scenario that we are in. We need a fighter that has the reach and can execute more missions with longer time on air. The JF 17 suits Pakistan because of the smaller size of the country and can reach anywhere quickly..but India being a large country we need a mix of fighters to have the reach. We also have a large area in the Arabian sea and Indian Ocean to Patrol and police.

A fighter like JF 17 in India will be mostly used for point defence and not as a multirole aircraft. The Load carried by JF 17 is much smaller compared to the Rafale or the Mirage and hence it is not suitable for our air force.

The Rafale holds as much relevance as the Eurofighter typhoon even till 2050. India might be procuring the F3 variant along with the SPECTRA EW suite.

All your points are very fair and valid - I accept all of them.

My point was not to compare JF-17 with Rafale ....that would be irrational.

I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.

Comparing a fourth generation fighter with Rafale is stupidity. You have forgotten by the time JF-17 block III arrive France will also bring more advance version of already deadly Rafale F3R2.so India will have the advantage unless you can induct more advance something.

How did you conclude that I am trying to compare Rafale and JF-17....????

Did you understand my point regarding India's delay to ink the deal

So you are comparing Rafale with JF-17. Anyway how many aircrafts did you Inducted in last 10-12 years? India Inducted 200+ Su-30MKIs. Its not like we were sitting idle with or without Rafale.

No I am not.

I am not comparing JF-17 with Rafale...that would be silly. I won't even compare Su30 with JF-17.

I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.

 

[Sliver]

You do understand that we signed MTCR rite?

Please check my earlier post in the same page. the MTCR was signed much later than the start of negotiations for the rafale. which means, if SCALP was on the table, there must be an implicit understanding to wait for MTCR

 

[kaykay]

All your points are very fair and valid - I accept all of them.

My point was not to compare JF-17 with Rafale ....that would be irrational.

I was trying to point out that India took so much time to ink the deal to buy fighters that other countries managed to bring a brand new fighter from drawing board to skies - and reached to the next block (block-II) as well.



How did you conclude that I am trying to compare Rafale and JF-17....????

Did you understand my point regarding India's delay to ink the deal



No I am not.

I am not comparing JF-17 with Rafale...that would be silly. I won't even compare Su30 with JF-17.

I am trying to highlight that the time India took to complete the deal to buy Rafales from a country; in the same time Pakistan and China brought a brand new jet from drawing board to the skies.

How is that possible? When MMRCA competition was floated in 2007, Jf-17 inducted in same year....Rafale came out winner of competition only in 2012 and negotiations followed afterwards.

 

[Agent_47]

Please check my earlier post in the same page. the MTCR was signed much later than the start of negotiations for the rafale. which means, if SCALP was on the table, there must be an implicit understanding to wait for MTCR

Weapon packages are always last part of the negotiation. SCALP is not a game changer to wait a multi billion dollar deal, Meteor proceeds the SCALP in terms of significance in the region.