Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[R!CK]

Some very strange Datas :

Gripen : Superlative maneuverability. OK. Why not. Strange to say that when it's poor in hot and high perf also....
Rafale : Good maneuverability. ONLY GOOD ? same close coupled config, more T/W ratio than Gripen...
SH18 : remarkable maneuverability. REMARKABLE ?

Rafale win all dog fight against SH ......
Looks like the Gripen E disadvantages are disappearing.

Final Configuration settled.
AESA radar on track.
First plane to be able to use Meteor. SDB approved for use.
"Hot" performance unknown for Gripen E.
High Cost - not compared to Rafale.

Subsystems sourced from third parties - same for Typhoon.
Technology Transfers only on SAAB stuff, but the includes GaN Radar.
Political Benefits -maybe not.

Gripen is good for its price. A good option for all the countries that can't afford twin-engine jet's operational/acquisition costs. A good option for countries that needs a credible fighter but at a lower budget.

A good option for a country with an indigenous single engine jet? A good option for a country that operates over 400 twin-engine jets and has an indigenous single engine jet to handle point defense? Maybe not. There is absolutely no place for a country like India to import a single engine jet because the country simply doesn't require a single engine jet to be an all rounder super beast? If idea was to have a single engine best of best aircraft, lets buy 500 Gripens and sell our Su-30s and Mig-29s?

P.S: SAAB is willing to share GAN AESA for Indian grippen deal but itself use Italian Selex AESA radar on their jets? Lol

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

RandomR, check what Pic told you.

-There are more Rafales for France past the LPM.
-Those that reach zero by 2018 are the M version incl. F1 retrofit.
-And all those tables and numbers you bandy around are from be-
fore / without the production increase.

Now, whatever the curve of the ramp-up ( which Halloweene will
be best placed to answer so let's give him time ) this is also to be
tied to the F-3R standard available also in 2018. Some birds have
to be reserved for it as an LRIP.

Last but not least, the Rafales taken from the AdlA line for Egypt
have to be versed back to it by the end of its initial delivery deal.

Besides, the important thing for India is that a full 11 at minima
seem slated for it once 3 per month rate is reached. That means
that the longest delay would be 3 years.

That last is what Éric Trappier said repeatedly when answering
journos by linking the 2 to 3 increase to your signature.

From September, 3 years is 2020.

@Abingdon, offered to India does not equal to offered to IAF ...
which is what I meant to point out, my friend.

And good day all, Tay.

The lowered orders for the 2014-19 is not because ADLA/MN don't want Rafales anymore. It's to buy other equipment for the armed forces, probably more ships. So I'm not saying you won't reach 180 or 225 aircraft, I'm saying France won't be taking orders in 2018 and 2019.

And as Picdel stated, the French will actually start getting the remaining 28 jets only after 2020. And the IAF order is confirmed anyway. So the remaining 28 were only if the Indian or UAE order didn't come through. That gives 5 years for the remaining 28 at 6/year. Followed by the remaining 45 from 2024 to 2032.

Production of the Rafale (French line) is until 2032. And as Picdel said, it will be at 6/year for France.

CNL said that apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, there are 5 other countries interested in the Rafale. Like a reported 72 aircraft expected from the Saudis alone.

There is also the possibility IAF will order another 36 from the French lines after the first 54 jets, minimum 5 squadrons was the original requirement from early last year, if the MII program is canceled for the PAK FA program. Which means India could end up buying 126 Rafales directly from the French lines (including 36 for IN). If this happens, even 33/year won't be enough because the actual MMRCA requirement was 20/year for only the IAF, not counting the IN.

That's also why one of the plans was to setup a new line in India for 36/year (maybe even 45/year according to Picdel) and supply the export aircraft from the Indian line. And out of that India alone was expected to take 30 a year.

 

[R!CK]

The lowered orders for the 2014-19 is not because ADLA/MN don't want Rafales anymore. It's to buy other equipment for the armed forces, probably more ships. So I'm not saying you won't reach 180 or 225 aircraft, I'm saying France won't be taking orders in 2018 and 2019.

And as Picdel stated, the French will actually start getting the remaining 28 jets only after 2020. And the IAF order is confirmed anyway. So the remaining 28 were only if the Indian or UAE order didn't come through. That gives 5 years for the remaining 28 at 6/year. Followed by the remaining 45 from 2024 to 2032.

Production of the Rafale (French line) is until 2032. And as Picdel said, it will be at 6/year for France.

CNL said that apart from Egypt, Qatar, India and UAE, there are 5 other countries interested in the Rafale. Like a reported 72 aircraft expected from the Saudis alone.

There is also the possibility IAF will order another 36 from the French lines after the first 54 jets, minimum 5 squadrons was the original requirement from early last year, if the MII program is canceled for the PAK FA program. Which means India could end up buying 126 Rafales directly from the French lines (including 36 for IN). If this happens, even 33/year won't be enough because the actual MMRCA requirement was 20/year for only the IAF, not counting the IN.

That's also why one of the plans was to setup a new line in India for 36/year (maybe even 45/year according to Picdel) and supply the export aircraft from the Indian line. And out of that India alone was expected to take 30 a year.

These are a lot of big IFs.

If Saudi is not happy with 154 F-15 SA, 86 F-15C, 72 Typhoon, 80 upgraded Tornado and the fuel prices picks up in a big way. There is even rumour that KSA has not exercised a repeat order of 72 more Typhoons seeking more clarity on the AESA plan. (F-15, Typhoon and Rafale while their economy is slowing down?)

If india can ever order 126 off the shelf Rafales. (Makes no sense to me)

If 36-45/year from MII line? In how many years? (Aren't we getting too ambitious?)

As per current plan, France must get 32 more units from 2017-2020. Order for Tranche 5 (2020-25) is not placed yet. This is what is available in open source and is stated by Dassault Chief. France delaying delivery of these 32 jets beyond 2020 is only an assumption so far. May/may not happen. Personally, while I do think few deliveries will be delayed, I'd be surprised if France is not taking any deliveries between 2018-19. Its so hard to believe and the French definitely won't want to be the last ones flying the F3R standards?

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

These are a lot of big IFs.

It's because IAF is in a transition period, between generations, that's made worse because we need a lot of older jets also due to the declining squadrons. So IAF and MoD are looking at a lot of options, including combinations of many options, and all this while they are yet unsure of how the economy will progress.

Rafale MII will mean more than 200 jets will be ordered. Direct imports will mean we will be stuck with 126 jets at best, but it will free up funds for other programs. And IAF's actual minimum Rafale requirement is only 90 jets. They are willing to accept any other cheaper jet if the 90 Rafales are assured. So the MoD is looking at single engine jets also.

Blame the UPA for this mess. We should have purchased the M-2000 line and finished production by now.

If Saudi is not happy with 154 F-15 SA, 86 F-15C, 72 Typhoon, 80 upgraded Tornado and the fuel prices picks up in a big way. There is even rumour that KSA has not exercised a repeat order of 72 more Typhoons seeking more clarity on the AESA plan. (F-15, Typhoon and Rafale while their economy is slowing down?)

The Saudi economy is not going down. And their purchases are particularly for politics rather than adding actual military capability.

If india can ever order 126 off the shelf Rafales. (Makes no sense to me)

If 36-45/year from MII line? In how many years? (Aren't we getting too ambitious?)

It's due to the time frame. In the very next statement you ask "how many years?"

We have to finish contract negotiations, then setup a production line, until then CKDs will come from France, and so on. It will take time. For MMRCA, we wanted a 20/year line for the IAF alone to start deliveries of CKDs within 4 years of signature. First deliveries will happen 6 years away at the current rate.

And this line will start eating into the FGFA line by then. Otoh, direct purchase of all 90 Rafales can be completed before the FGFA is inducted.

As per current plan, France must get 32 more units from 2017-2020.

It's 26 jets from 2014-2019. It's a six year long plan.

https://defence.pk/threads/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order.268595/

Order for Tranche 5 (2020-25) is not placed yet. This is what is available in open source and is stated by Dassault Chief. France delaying delivery of these 32 jets beyond 2020 is only an assumption so far. May/may not happen. Personally, while I do think few deliveries will be delayed, I'd be surprised if France is not taking any deliveries between 2018-19. Its so hard to believe and the French definitely won't want to be the last ones flying the F3R standards?

Good Day!

The French can upgrade their older aircraft to F3R if necessary. Unless orders are actually placed, nothing will happen.

 

[monitor]

 

[Mentee]

40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?

 

[randomradio]

Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....

**************************

Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html

So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.

From another forum, about MII

http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717

MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???

Dude, we have discussed this so many times on IDF. Numbers will cross 200 with MII.

40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?

All of the above and more are under discussions. There are many numbers, depending on the need.

IAF needs 400 new jets in total. IN needs 150+. So contracts will be split between at least 4 jets.

 

[Mentee]

Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html

So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.



Dude, we have discussed this so many times on IDF. Numbers will cross 200 with MII.



All of the above and more are under discussions. There are many numbers, depending on the need.

IAF needs 400 new jets in total. IN needs 150+. So contracts will be split between at least 4 jets.

I was in school then when all this mmrca drama started, now iam in 4th year , kb ay gy yeh vaahan

 

[cerberus]

40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?

First 36+18 Come by 2019-2020

Than other contract Under MII Will be reached By 2019 our Military budget increases to 80-90 billion $ by then

 

[Mentee]

First 36+18 Come the

Than other contract Under MII Will be reached By 2019 our Military budget increases to 80-90 billion $

90 billion $ mark set for the next three years is quite outrageous , and what does mii stand for?

 

[mirage]

I was in school then when all this mmrca drama started, now iam in 4th year , kb ay gy yeh vaahan

wah wah , bohut hasi wali baat ki apne abdulla jee .

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

40 125 or 150? How many Rafael's are on the shopping list?

I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.

We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.

 

[cerberus]

90 billion $ mark set for the next three years is quite outrageous , and what does mii stand for?

India is getting 4 trillion $ by 2020 you do the math current budget is 51 billion $

currently india is 2.3 trillion $ by all forecast we expected to reach 3.5 billion $ by 2020 but excluding GST figures

 

[Mentee]

wah wah , bohut hasi wali baat ki apne abdulla jee .

The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile

India is getting 4 trillion $ by 2020 you do the math current budget is 51 billion $

currently india is 2.3 trillion $ by all forecast we expected to reach 3.5 billion $ by 2020 but excluding GST figures

I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not

 

[kaykay]

I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.

We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.

Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.