Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[GuardianRED]

Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.

Very True! ...Somebody give this guy a positive Rating!!!

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Just an exemple: France have reorganized its Chammal deployment for operations in Iraq and Syria. The number of Rafale increased from 6 to 12 and the Mirage 2000 are removed.

The Mirage flyed 10 810 hours in 20 months. They were 6 Mirage until the 22 of february 2016 and 8 Mirage since this date. The normal flying hours for Mirage in France is 200 h/year. So these Mirage flyed at 463% of normal rate, that is to say 926 h by year and by Mirage or the normal flying hours of 33 Mirage for the team.

The ability to increase the availability of your planes is a huge quality in war time. And Rafale is even better than Mirage for that.

 

[[Bregs]]

Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.

India media urgently needs to take classes in defence studies and there equipments

 

[BON PLAN]

I can give here only a French perspective. From this point of view, the number of Rafale originally sold to India is of little importance. Indeed the Rafale is a wonderful airplane which replaces in France seven categories of aircraft, and allowed to impressive savings by replacing 593 older aircraft with 140 Rafale, without loss of capacity in quantity or in quality.

We are therefore confident that Indians, when they will have used the Rafale, will want more of them due to its qualities.

Don't forget the 35 Mirage 2000-5 and 55 Mirage 2000-D along with the 140 Rafale.....

But the result is (nearly) the same : far less planes for a better result.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile


I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not

History has we are better at a distance. Let it be so. Try ignore each other as much as possible , this will bring down conflicts.

Saudi Arabia is a cold prospect.
After india inked the deal, the next may be Malysia I think. Apart a follow order from Egypt....

**************************

From another forum, about MII

http://indiandefence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1151#post-494717

MII = 5x36 = 180 ...... Sci Fi or not ???

Make in India airframes ? The IAF wants 9-10 full squadrons of Rafale and (21x10)-36 should be the MII numbers for IAF airframes.

 

[R!CK]

It's 26 jets from 2014-2019. It's a six year long plan.

https://defence.pk/threads/france-to-cut-back-on-rafale-order.268595/

The French can upgrade their older aircraft to F3R if necessary. Unless orders are actually placed, nothing will happen.

Bro, you keep going to data from 2013. This is no more relevant. I once again urge you to go through Dassault data published from mid of this year.

2015-December

2016-July

The current French backlog is for 34 jets. 2 more units will join the fleet this year and a further 1 unit in 2017. Year 2018, French confirmed backlog will be 31 units. Now when and where these will be delivered, we don't know. But this 31 units for France is confirmed and not cut back.

P.S: The Fanboy in me wants you to be right but the professional in me puts a big question mark on your statements. No offence.

Qatar's original requirement was 72 also.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154794/qatar-close-to-selecting-rafale.html

So at least more follow on orders can be expected from Qatar.

Qatar original requirement was for 72 F-15s which is awaiting Pentagon approval for ages. Very similar to Kuwait awaiting F/A 18 - SH approval from pentagon.

Running out of patience, Qatar ordered 24 Rafales with an option clause for further 12 for a possible future fleet of 36 rafales. The number was limited to 24/36 only because Qatar still prefers the F-15s over rafale. A future fleet of Qatar may comprise, 36 Rafales & 36 F-15s. Unless, Boeing deal goes downhill and the F-15s get denied to Qatar (close to impossible), then Qatar may open a new order for similar number of 24 + 12 units options if not more.

"The Pentagon and the State Department have been considering the sale of 36 Boeing F-15 fighter jets to Qatar valued at around $4 billion. They are also considering the sale of 28 F/A- 18E/F Super Hornets, plus options for 12 more, to Kuwait in a deal valued at around $3 billion."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-qatar-usa-jets-idUSKCN1175GQ

Good Day!

 

[jha]

The name is mentee, and shukria if I made you smile


I suggest you guys to freeze it, lets build some joint Asian universities, health centers and what not

This is a good idea.

I cant understand why are we planning to spend another $50 Billion on Rafales ( if reports of MII are true) when clearly this money can be used else where.

 

[R!CK]

(21x10)-36 should be the MII numbers for IAF airframes.

The rafale fleet will have 18 units/squadron.

Good Day!

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.

Because in case of India , we are taking steps for two front defence. Its not like lets replace 3 Mirages bombing in some foreign lands with 1 Rafale equally capable as 3. We will at least need 2.

For western front we need 1vs1 parity and for up north ,enough capability to hold on to 1/3rd of Chinese air fleet. And this is not me or media , but what the near to ideal situation demands.

The rafale fleet will have 18 units/squadron.

Good Day!

The IAF with MMRCA wanted 6-9 Full Strength Squadrons to allow high operational rates even while facing attrition in conflicts. With MII over the horizon , I am sure they will make sure it happens.

 

[R!CK]

Indeed sir. But with Indian perspective, Its frustrating to see that even if you replace Mig-21 and Mig-27s with Su-30MKIs or Rafales, they will only count squadrons and not the quality of the jets you are replacing with. It will end up with news headlines like 'IAF squadron strength hit all time low and India lost its numerical edge' haha.

A different perspective to it, When we flew Mig-21/27s our prospective opponent flew aircraft of similar capability. However this is no more the case, we cant expect to replace 10 squadrons of Mig-21 with 3 squadron MKI just because they give the same output. This is because while you induct 3 squadrons of MKI, your prospective opponent just added 10? Our eastern border neighbour will be a defining factor in all our defense acquisitions for a long long time. While quality always has an edge, there is always some relevance in quantity.

P.S: Media hype is bullsh*t anyway regardless.

The IAF with MMRCA wanted 6-9 Full Strength Squadrons to allow high operational rates even while facing attrition in conflicts. With MII over the horizon , I am sure they will make sure it happens.

IAF are funny people, the original MMRCA deal was planned for 6 squadrons of 21 units each. After cancellation of MMRCA, IAF proposed a 16 unit/squadron theme to increase off-the-shelf purchase to 80 units. Now that MII plan is approved, we have made up our mind to have 18 jets/squadron.

Sources said the IAF has conveyed the need for five squadrons and estimated a squadron at 16 jets each, instead of the normal number of 18 jets, as the Rafale with its high-end technology is available to fly at short notice and has a shorter maintenance “turn-around”.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/80-rafale-type-jets-needed-iaf/102069.html

P.S: Squadron strength makes no difference regardless, at time of war every jet that can fly will be up in the air. Weather Sq. A has 18 units ready to fly or Sq. B has 21 units, who cares?

Good Day!

Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.

 

[randomradio]

Bro, you keep going to data from 2013. This is no more relevant. I once again urge you to go through Dassault data published from mid of this year.

2015-December

2016-July

The current French backlog is for 34 jets. 2 more units will join the fleet this year and a further 1 unit in 2017. Year 2018, French confirmed backlog will be 31 units. Now when and where these will be delivered, we don't know. But this 31 units for France is confirmed and not cut back.

P.S: The Fanboy in me wants you to be right but the professional in me puts a big question mark on your statements. No offence.

Bro, I know about that. That is Dassault's backlog of French orders. But French MoD itself has put a hold on the deliveries. Meaning, the delivery of those Rafales are guaranteed, but it is the time frame that has been stretched. After 2017, the Rafale France backlog will be 28 and will stay that way until 2020.

And it's cool if one of us is right or wrong, all of these decisions are fluid.

There's been no change in the orders, just the delivery has been changed.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

@R!CK
For MKI , you can count on me. No 16 aircraft squadrons. Most are 19-20 aircrafts. 2 Are 17 each [As of Oct-Nov 2015]. Eventually each will have at least 19 as more aircraft are rolled out.

 

[randomradio]

Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.

Some squadrons are 16, some are 18. The rest are reserves. So 20 jets are connected to each squadron, including reserves.

 

[kaykay]

A different perspective to it, When we flew Mig-21/27s our prospective opponent flew aircraft of similar capability. However this is no more the case, we cant expect to replace 10 squadrons of Mig-21 with 3 squadron MKI just because they give the same output. This is because while you induct 3 squadrons of MKI, your prospective opponent just added 10? Our eastern border neighbour will be a defining factor in all our defense acquisitions for a long long time. While quality always has an edge, there is always some relevance in quantity.

P.S: Media hype is bullsh*t anyway regardless.



IAF are funny people, the original MMRCA deal was planned for 6 squadrons of 21 units each. After cancellation of MMRCA, IAF proposed a 16 unit/squadron theme to increase off-the-shelf purchase to 80 units. Now that MII plan is approved, we have made up our mind to have 18 jets/squadron.

Sources said the IAF has conveyed the need for five squadrons and estimated a squadron at 16 jets each, instead of the normal number of 18 jets, as the Rafale with its high-end technology is available to fly at short notice and has a shorter maintenance “turn-around”.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/80-rafale-type-jets-needed-iaf/102069.html

P.S: Squadron strength makes no difference regardless, at time of war every jet that can fly will be up in the air. Weather Sq. A has 18 units ready to fly or Sq. B has 21 units, who cares?

Good Day!

Question: Any reliable data on how many units/squadron for MKI? I've heard 21,18 and 16. Would like to confirm.

For MKI its 16+3= 19
For others, Its 16+2+3=21.
For Rafale its just 18( may be 16+2).

 

[R!CK]

@R!CK
For MKI , you can count on me. No 16 aircraft squadrons. Most are 19-20 aircrafts. 2 Are 17 each [As of Oct-Nov 2015]. Eventually each will have at least 19 as more aircraft are rolled out.

Some squadrons are 16, some are 18. The rest are reserves. So 20 jets are connected to each squadron, including reserves.

So from our order of 272 - 6 (crashed) = 266 units, how many squadrons do we intend to raise? Without accounting for the much hyped follow-on of 40 additional jets. Also keep in mind, each Brahmos squadron is said to be 20 jets/squadron.

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy

Good Day all!