Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[BON PLAN]

All jets by 2019.

Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)

Dassault will expand to 3 jets per month (minus August) with the IAF order. It was 2 jets without the Indian order.

Not sure.
I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate.

The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.

 

[Hephaestus]

Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)

S'il vous plaît, we can't wait no more.

 

[thesolar65]

"Der aye durust aye"!!

 

[PARIKRAMA]

is he high? also what's the deal with Ajay Shukla why is he so opposed to this deal?

@PRAIKRAMA what are the Industrial benefits of Rafael? and do you have a link on how Rafael compares with the rest of MMRCA competitors?

From some old data. Most of the public data is from Ashley Tellis but thats highly biased towards American fighters and data is as on 2012 timeline.

Based on 2011-12 timeline Mr Ashley Tellis version

and costing

If you look at Rafale, here is few things

++++

Industrial Benefits is included under offset package. The details of the same will be out soon but primarily talks are 20% part sourcing from Indian local MIC and 30% invest in Military R&D projects in India like Kaveri Jet Engine.
Also 16 critical technologies are fully shared with us.
All this will be known in coming days or else will write it here in suitable time. But you can guess some include Radar, Spectra, RAM, Stealth aerodynamics research, etc etc
The biggest benefit comes under the bigger deal for MII and the French side participation in black projects.
One key thing not said much is access to megajoule project allowing us to simulate and adopt next generation warheads for strategic purposes. Of course this wont be covered much nor revealed.

 

[ni8mare]

NEW DELHI: More than a decade after India decided to purchase a new line of fighter aircraft, it is now official. On September 23rd, India will sign a deal for 36 Rafale fighters with France for about 7.87 billion Euros, sources have told NDTV.

Along with the 36 fighters, India will also get spares and weaponry, including the Meteor missile, considered among the most advanced in the world.

Of the 7.87 billion Euros, about 50 per cent will be covered under offset, which means either France will reinvest this amount in India or source equipment of this value from India.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be in India for the signing of the deal.

An Inter-Governmental Agreement between India and France allows for a follow on order of Rafale fighters with a 10 per cent cost escalation. The government claims that it has brought down the price by about 600 million Euros from the initial demand.

The deal could not be signed this January when French President Francois Hollande was the Chief Guest for the Republic Day because India wanted a better price.

Negotiations went on till 2 am on January 26, but an agreement on price could not be reached then. India and France agreed to sign a general agreement without naming the price.


For the Indian Air Force, the deal is bitter-sweet. On one hand, they will be getting two squadrons of the state-of-the-art fighter, on the other hand, the original requirement was for at least 126 jets.

India needs at least 42 squadrons of fighters and has an existing strength of 32. The fighter fleet will go down further by about 10 squadrons as the MiG-21 fighter will have to be decommissioned.

The new fighters will begin entering service in 2019.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indi...ale-fighters-1459175?pfrom=home-lateststories

 

[cloud4000]

India really needs to streamline its procurement process for defense equipment.. It wouldn't be surprising if the French were having heartburn because India is taking its sweet time. I'm sure this would make a good joke for Russell Peters.

 

[Ali Zadi]

What about MII?

Also why is follow on order so important if MII is an active interest?

 

[R!CK]

Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)


Not sure.
I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate.

The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.

The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.

Order Backlog 2014: France(43)

2015 Total - 8 units

2015 - First Half
1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt

2015 - First Half
4 units for France​

Order Backlog 2015: France(38) Egypt(21) Qatar (24)

2016 Total - 9 units

2016 - First Half
3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
4 units for France

2016 - Second Half
2 units for France
​

P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017

Order Backlog 2016: France(32) Egypt(18) Qatar (24)

2017

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt​

Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

Source: http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html and multiple official documents.

Order Backlog 2017: France(31) Egypt(15) Qatar (24)

2018

22-33 units/year proposed​

6-9 units for Egypt?
3-6 units for Qatar?
3-6 units for India?
3-9 units for France?
​

2019

33 units/year

9-12 units for Egypt (Completion of Tranche1)
9-12 units for Qatar?
6-12 units for India?
3-6 units for France?​

2020

33 units/year​

6-12 units for Qatar? (Completion of Order)
12-15 units for India?
6-12 units for France?​

Personally France might continue to receive 3 units/year until Egypt Tranche 1 is completed. Qatar contract has an agreed timeline of 2018-20 for 24 units. Indian order might be executed over 2018-20/21 time frame.

Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong.

​

Good Day all!

 

[randomradio]

Not possible. Absolutely not possible I'm afraid.
Don't forget Egypt and Qatar (quatar : 11 plane by year by 2018...)


Not sure.
I heard instead that the Indian order may reinforce the 2/month rate.

The lead time of some items (engines, undercarriage...) is 3 years.

We will get all the jets by 2019.

Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720

The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.

I'm picking up some data. Will post it today or tomorrow unless someone beats me to it. The delivery plan has been already planned prior to today's news. Dassault had to provide the delivery timelines before the deal was concluded, which is atleast 2-3 months before this month.

P.S: A rate increase from 22 to 33 is expected to occur on 2018. Rate will drop this year and will rise up next year but still short of the 33/year target.

Good Day!

That's what I said.

3/month - August = 33 jets/month.

In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.

The Production output was 8 jets in 2015, against the capacity of 11/year. This is mainly due to 3 units being reconfigured for Egypt from Fr AF standard.

2015 Total - 8 units

2015 - First Half
1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt

2015 - First Half
4 units for France​

2016 Total - 9 units

2016 - First Half
3 units for Egypt (2015 airframe)
4 units for France

2016 - Second Half
2 units for France
​

P.S: Only 6 new airframes built. Line to undergo preparation for production ramp-up 2017

2017

1 unit for France
3 units for Egypt​

Line up-gradation to continue. Qatar standard to complete testing. Indian standard to begin testing.

Source: http://www.dassault-aviation.tv/first_half_year_2016_results-1416-en.html and multiple official documents.

2018

22-33 units proposed​

6-9 units for Egypt?
3-6 units for Qatar?
3-6 units for India?
3-9 units for France?
​

Disclaimer: Not speaking from family source background, data compiled from multiple official sources. Feel free to ignore if wrong.

​

Good Day all!

Nothing for France until after 2020.

 

[Ali Zadi]

One key thing not said much is access to megajoule project allowing us to simulate and adopt next generation warheads for strategic purposes. Of course this wont be covered much nor revealed.

Am positively frantic to know what those critical technologies are and LMJ would be very useful for materials studies and in fact other than warheads its been discussed as a way to get better efficiency from nuclear reactors. So in a way India might benefit in smaller size reactors which will pump out more energy while keeping the overall design more or less the same.

 

[debspark90]

Has anyone found his marbles?? Seriously?

Su 35 for a MMRCA , seriously? Someone should hint at the Super Su30 Program to him!

Eurofighter no one wants??? Eight Countries are either inducting / ordering them! and there are still 200+ frames to be added!

I want what he is smoking! - Some powerful stuff!


The Fin Flash is correct , the Roudels are overkill (amd big)

Nope he is taking cheap Dendrite...

 

[R!CK]

We will get all the jets by 2019.

Trappier said last year that Dassault has already started increasing production rate.
http://in.reuters.com/article/dassault-rafale-idINFWN10003E20150720

The earlier plan was to double production with Indian orders, but Qatar signed before India. So Dassault has no choice but to triple production. And then there's a potential IN order also.



That's what I said.

3/month - August = 33 jets/month.

In 2016, Dassault will deliver 9 jets. 6 to France and 3 to Egypt.
In 2017, Dassault will deliver 4 jets. 1 to France, 3 to Egypt.
In 2018, Dassault will deliver up to 33 jets. 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.
In 2019, 3 to Egypt, 11 to Qatar, 18 to India.



Nothing for France until after 2020.

I'd be surprised if India accepts a full squadron of rafale each year. I guess I'll pray you are right.

Good Day!

 

[randomradio]

I guess I'll pray you are right.

Good Day!

The original timeframe was just 2 years, but France said they won't achieve that.

Anyway--
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8564204

That is what I said in january on another forum: all Rafales built in France delivered to India by end 2019/ very beginning 2020.

@BON PLAN ^^^

In fact it is possible it could be 16+16+4, but 18+18 is the one going around right now. Originally, it was supposed to be done by 2018-19.


This is information from June 2015 actually.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-rafale-sale-to-india-115061200010_1.html
Trappier made it clear it would take at least three years to deliver 36 Rafales to the IAF, given that Egypt and Qatar are ahead of India in the line to receive the fighter. Parrikar had stated on April 11 in Goa that theIAF would be delivered its fighters within two years.

Dassault's production rates make even three years seem an over-ambitious delivery target. Trappier says the current production of 11 Rafales per year for the Armee de l'Air (French Air Force) would be entirely diverted for export to Egypt and Qatar. Deliveries to the Armee de l'Air are suspended till at least 2020.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The original timeframe was just 2 years, but France said they won't achieve that.

Anyway--
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-298#post-8564204


@BON PLAN ^^^

In fact it is possible it could be 16+16+4, but 18+18 is the one going around right now. Originally, it was supposed to be done by 2018-19.


This is information from June 2015 actually.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...s-on-rafale-sale-to-india-115061200010_1.html
Trappier made it clear it would take at least three years to deliver 36 Rafales to the IAF, given that Egypt and Qatar are ahead of India in the line to receive the fighter. Parrikar had stated on April 11 in Goa that theIAF would be delivered its fighters within two years.

Dassault's production rates make even three years seem an over-ambitious delivery target. Trappier says the current production of 11 Rafales per year for the Armee de l'Air (French Air Force) would be entirely diverted for export to Egypt and Qatar. Deliveries to the Armee de l'Air are suspended till at least 2020.

I know this article is over a year old but I wonder what the agreement will now be, 2 years for deliveries to commence ( as Parrikar has said above) or 3 years (as Tappier has said)? One would assume a compromise has been found, I wonder how much Parrikar has extracted on this front (if at all) or if the Indian side were even that fussed over a matter of 12 months?

@PARIKRAMA

 

[randomradio]

I know this article is over a year old but I wonder what the agreement will now be, 2 years for deliveries to commence ( as Parrikar has said above) or 3 years (as Tappier has said)? One would assume a compromise has been found, I wonder how much Parrikar has extracted on this front (if at all) or if the Indian side were even that fussed over a matter of 12 months?

@PARIKRAMA

We will naturally have to go by what Trappier says. And it's not 'commence' deliveries, it's 'finish' deliveries.

The delivery time frame is 3 years from date of signature. So by December 2019, we should have all 36, if we go by the French financial year. Or March 2020 if we go by the Indian one.

And IAF requirement is 1 squadron per year, even for MII.