Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Hell hound]

Qatar and Egypt paid 7 billion for 24 Jets... don't you think that's heavy price too!!! Sir the ting is the package includes Weapons, infra and life cycle costs and france should also have to invest 50% of that in india. if we pay 10 billion for 36 then its less than what the Arabs paid

mate its not cheap french weapons never are but after doing cost benefit analysis you will find that there are only three feasible arm supplier in today's weapon market USA, RUSSIA and CHINA. European produce good weapons but when it come to cost they lose out to these big threes.reason being high R&D cost ,high production cost and no economies of scale because of small number of unit produced.so they are only best when you need specialized weapons.for basic weapons (forgive me for using this word but fighter jet is like basic weapon or a building block for an air force) above vendors should be considered.and mate i don't know the clauses in offset contract but basically what the contract do is force vendor to invest in a particular sector in your country.but what most of guys forget is that the money is still theirs they will get the returns on it.these investment are considered like normal investments and like any investor they still have substantial control over it and they will do their best to get maximum return out of it.i am not saying i won't benefit you it surely will but to what amount it is still under their control. its much better to get this offset deal with tot as by doing this you are making it more feasible for them to make parts in your country and in return making your defense sector strong. but without tot they wont invest in production so i don't see attraction in this stand alone offset deal.they will invest it as they please.so my point drop this offset clause and get rafale at cheaper price if you want it so badly other wise go for Russian or american and invest the remaining balance yourself in your country.

 

[Dungeness]

He had forgotten the purpose of being MOD! He becomes the minister of negotiator. It buys lots of time for Pakistan.

Yes, MMRCA project has been dragging on for more than 10 years. This is really the time wasted for IAF.

 

[45'22']

This means we will order more Su-30MKIs instead of Rafales and ultimately drop it.

Dassault found its new customer in Egypt and has opened up new areas. Most likely they won't budge.

Mki's will touch 340 and we will go for rafales as well

India is a big market....if Dassault has even a little brain then they certainly will negotiate....

 

[slapshot]

So the last fling in forums about deal being finalized and done was yet another waste of time and bandwidth?

 

[somebozo]

Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...

 

[Hell hound]

Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...

i like the way think man purely evil and extremely genius .

 

[slapshot]

Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...

Pakistan should take advantage for sure. Either you will annoy Indians or you may actually get lucky and get what you wanted. Lets give the French leverage they are needing to close this deal...

 

[PARIKRAMA]

strangely other news sources in last 24 hours quote something like

India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets.
Rafale fighter jet deal stuck because price is a problem, says Manohar Parrikar - Firstpost

India signed an inter-governmental pact with France to buy 36 Rafale fighters but the price negotiations are still on. France is said to have quoted around $9 billion for the 36 jets.
The deal would includes two types of missiles and bombs, training of pilots and base facilities for the planes.
Rafale deal stuck on price: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

The source of these news is IANS.


$9Bn is RS 61K..

Ajai shukla and Business Standard quoted

Business Standard understands that Dassault has quoted about Rs 91,548 crore, while Indian negotiators are refusing to go above Rs 68,499 crore.

USD 13.46 Bn Dassault wants and India is ready for USD 10 Bn

Strange to me what breakup Ajai shukla is coming up with..

Even if i use instead of 36 but rather full lock in of 36+18 options, i dont see how price can reach USD13.46 Bn or Euro 12.5 Bn whereas starting price in source based news and public was Euro 11.5 Bn which came down to Euro 8 Bn with a scope of cutting down further 700 Mn approx and bring down the overall deal price to Euro 7.3 Bn

I think our press is now shooting from their behinds now.. Its just a hogwash figure...

Bharat Karnad will pick this figure and say 91548/36= 2543 crs a plane and India wants to pay 68499/36 = 1902 Crs
In the price we will get 4 MKis almost 9 LCAs and what not...

+++
I feel we need good defense reporters.. URGENTLY

 

[#hydra#]

Right time for Pakistan to engage Dassault and then Indians will purchase it for whatever price tag it comes..Pakistan should prefix a sales comission with Dassault...

If they assit you guys on jf17 avionics,ys there is a chance of such move from india.

 

[Vergennes]

Taking technology from the Rafale, it be worth it. Talking many years of research and development as well as money involved.

Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay

 

[C130]

Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will now to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

the Rafale has some awesome tech in it and the Rafale is in my top 3 of favorite jets, but this whole deal has just been a disaster.


but I can see how France would be hesitant to give full ToT.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

OK folks,
I am not giving you here a rant but i was wondering few things here.. Post the news of multiple (1 or 2) new lines under MII, i was trying to understand how serious is perhaps one particular bid and scope of so called help in our AMCA program..

After googling and reading few stuffs over last 2 days (and yes i posted limited during the same time here .. apologies could not contribute much), i am pasting few things here..

The company and line in question is Boeing and F18s

Here is the first thing, a scan of an old article from Hindu dated 03-04-08

This article talks about Boeing Consulting role talks with ADA for our beloved LCA program

What i understand is this bid of consultancy role was blocked by US in the same year bcz in 2009 ADA approached Lockheed Martin for a similar consulting role. What i understand is there is a 90 day window cited for getting clearance from US government by Boeing where it was stalled.

Now the second thing
Back then in September 2009, our Ajai Shukla only reported that USA government blocked LM's help for LCA

The US government is, for the second time, squeezing American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin out of an important contract related to India’s Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

Business Standard learns that Lockheed Martin, selected in June as a consultant for developing the Naval version of the Tejas, was given 90 days to obtain the clearances it needed from the US government. But now, with time running out, Washington has sent Lockheed Martin a list of questions about what assistance the company will provide.

Lockheed Martin’s current situation replicates that of Boeing, which was front-runner for the air force Tejas consultancy. But earlier this year, after the US government failed to grant Boeing a clearance (called Technical Assistance Agreement) in time, the defence ministry awarded EADS the contract. The European consortium obtained the sanctions in time and is now working with ADA.
US puts Lockheed off Tejas flight path | Business Standard News

So my above point of 90 day clearance not granted is validated

My third point
Back in 2011, based on Wikileaks leaking a confidential cable by Timothy Roemer, ambassador to India, USA folks are not keen with any tie up with HAL. This was in context with MMRCA Bid.

The Financial Times, in a report on Friday, cited US ambassador to India Timothy Roemer as saying in a confidential cable last year that was leaked by WikiLeaks: “The potential for HAL to successfully partner with US firms on a truly advanced aircraft remains untested and suspect.”
HAL dismisses concerns over its ability - Livemint

Effectively what i am trying to point out is even today after about 5 years of passage the view of the house among US MIC has not changed much. So, its still points to no tie up with DPSU.. Verbally all talk about a healthy relationship with HAL (Both Boeing, LM etc) but in reality their actions are far from this.. Its a similar approach with ADA whom they gave cold shoulder under pressure from US government.

My fourth point is the proof about what Boeing stipulated under the guidance of US government

Boeing has stipulated that Tejas should not be sold to another country without U.S. permission
ADA officials find this unacceptable since no U.S.-made equipment is to be fitted on the Tejas

The Bush administration seems to be dragging its feet over giving the go-ahead to Boeing providing consultancy for the light combat aircraft, Tejas, programme.

The consultancy, offered to the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is designing and developing the Tejas), will run for 42 months.

It envisages Boeing, which has sufficient experience on flight test programmes like its F-18 Hornet, providing the ADA with crucial inputs on flight tests that would help in avoiding unnecessary flights, saving costs and shortening of the design and development phases.

Said an official: “We can’t understand why the U.S. government is making a big thing out of something like a consultancy programme in flight testing. It is strange that it is being linked to the possible sale of the aircraft [Tejas]. This does not augur well for the seriousness of American weapons/defence corporation with India.”
Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme - NATIONAL - The Hindu

So you see the trend here.. Whatever is being developed must not threaten what exists in their product portfolio of US MICs


So the conclusion part

• What benefit Boeing will bring for AMCA project?
• Will it not repeat the "consulting" history seen like above?
• Is AMCA not a direct threat to both its F18 future and later an F35 future prospects in India
• Is AMCA and LCA not killing the market prospects for F16s/F18s and F35 in Indian context?
• Its clear Boeing wont have a tie up with DPSU and Beoing wont like a big conglomerate like TATA too owing to "sensitive hi end technology" being used in "F18s" - a line often used in US congress wordings,, so for a more control it would always wish to go solo..
• So how will GOI/MOD have any control?

To me it still looks just words to sugar coat their intent of denying India anything which constitutes meaningful technology transfer or any success of AMCA program

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @Vauban @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil @anant_s @randomradio @Dash @raktaka @Armani @Masterhunter @surya kiran @Ankit Kumar @others

Does all this makes you feel anything? The history shows something which we have already experienced.. should we learn from history or again bet on US/Boeing and F18 prospects under MII + associated "help" into AMCA program

I have a similar view about SAAB also..

Gentlemen, your thoughts on this could help me understand a bit better .. i do have an opinion atm but would like more rational backing on this.. So a good discussion is in order about the true intentions here....

Hope I am not out of line from the context of this thread .. just wished to plainly understand the real intentions and actual feasible aspect of this so called offer..

 

[GURU DUTT]

Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay

you 100% right bro no one shares there hard work and best techs just for few billion dollars worth profit cause in the end its more harmfull than good but as a buyer we want the best deal and both are main factors in any deal and im sure rafales will never make it Mr. Pariker could not have been more blunt to say that .... good now MOD should dump rafale for F/A-18 E/F advanced super hornet and growler as they are more leathel and have engine comminallity with our future projects like Tejas MK2 & AMCA ... nuff said

 

[calmDown@all]

Exporting our products : YES.

ToT : Not very keen on that. Is that worth it to transfer our skills,technologies,knowledge etc. that it took us decades and billions of € to develop ? Just for few Bn of € ?
Because at the end,when Indians will know to make everything,will they still buy from us ?
Their products could be in the future a threat to our exports.

@wanglaokan @Shabi1 @Hell hound @somebozo @slapshot @C130 @Dungeness

@Taygibay

bien monsieur u voir que nous sommes indien est pas les parasites pathétiques comme quelques autres est parce que lorsque nous développons une relation avec quelqu'un de quelque nature que nous sommes totalement dévoués à elle dans le ex.- de simples profanes terme de la rivalité indo- pak est un bon exemple pour u ...et dans le même exemple de temps de liens indo- russe dans le monde et u trouver , peu importe ce que peut être la relation
même pour la France , nous pouvons passer à côté ou sur la même ligne ou soit
Et étant donné que nous avons une bonne relation historique de nous pourrions poursuivre le développement mutuel !!!

thanks regards!!!

 

[surya kiran]

Let us understand one thing. There is no tech going to come from the Americans. Never has. Never will.If it comes, will be couple of generations old.

There is no cutting edge tech going to come from the French either. Unless, there is something in it for them. What will this entail? Risk diversification. A program which can be developed together, where monies are put equally on the table. Business is assured for the French companies and Indian companies.

Same applies for Russia and Israel.

Only other way, kick our private companies into R&D. You know how to do it? Give them tax breaks if they invest in a list of universities for research. Ensure universities deliver. Provide them with cutting edge systems and grants to ape the American universities for now. Get the Indian students going abroad with incentives to do research in India under the companies' grants.