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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Some interesting tweets by Saurav Jha

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
As I see it, this whole Rafale thing is contingent on our negotiations with the Russkis on the PMFI/FGFA/PAK-FA.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
BTW HAL has already invested 400 crores for the Rafale license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.

If what Saurav Jha claims is true and HAL had really invested 400 Crs then Rafale is coming for sure or else Rs 400 crs down the drain means severe rap from CAG or other government audit bodies. So the question is when the contract will be signed i guess..

for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
“HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken 400 acres of land for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju

Excerpts from
News Releases
- SP's Show News
 
BTW HAL has already invested 400 crores for the Rafale license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.

for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
“HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken 400 acres of land for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju

I think there is a confusion, since the link itself says:

The HAL Chairman, Suvarna Raju announced that the Government of Karnataka had allocated 610 acres of land in Tumkuru district and efforts are on to start the works over there. The development cost for the helicopter complex would be about Rs. 400 crores

So the 400 crores are for the new helicopter complex, while the 400 acres is for the production of a new fighter, which however is not limited to Rafale of course, but any MMRCA.
 
Some interesting tweets by Saurav Jha

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
As I see it, this whole Rafale thing is contingent on our negotiations with the Russkis on the PMFI/FGFA/PAK-FA.

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 3h3 hours agoNew Delhi, Delhi
BTW HAL has already invested 400 crores for the Rafale license build program. So they obviously expect this deal to happen.

If what Saurav Jha claims is true and HAL had really invested 400 Crs then Rafale is coming for sure or else Rs 400 crs down the drain means severe rap from CAG or other government audit bodies. So the question is when the contract will be signed i guess..

for instance where they had invested then this is what i found
“HAL as a lead production agency will do its role.” It has already taken 400 acres of land for the programme and would await directions of the government - Suvarna Raju

Excerpts from
News Releases - SP's Show News
Why would the CAG have an issue with this? The deal will happen and if HAL haven't got their act together with respect to creating the requisite infrastructure then they would get raked over the coals would they not?

It's good they are taking such proactive steps- this NEEDS to happen for the sake of the IAF's SQD strength.
 
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  • Marine Rafale of Charles De Gaulle taking off from CVN 70 USS Carl Vinson during carrier qualification!
Stéphane Fort‏@Stephane_Fort
Le Président de la République François Hollande a pris place à bord d'un Rafale lors de sa visite à Mérignac
meaning
The President of the Republic François Hollande boarded a Rafale during his visit in Merignac



François Hollande in the famous fighter plane
francois-hollande-dans-le-celebre-avion-de-chasse-rafale_2528929_800x400.jpg




another report google translated
François Hollande in Merignac "The Rafale is an exceptional aircraft"
" This is an exceptional aircraft , has he said. It has all the ingredients for success on the international stage. Hence our pride. But he can not be a success if there is no participation. It is the collective success and for a country that is a good example to set. "

No way to say more so in these new potential buyers: "What matters is to have a time of quiet negotiations , because if we made announcements saying that we will have a contract and that it does not come, it created a huge disappointment. And there have been many. "

Last time he came in Gironde, it was March 16, 2013, for the inauguration of the bridge Chaban-Delmas in Bordeaux. Two years later, almost to the day, if François Hollande has not cut ribbon Wednesday afternoon in the Dassault factory Merignac, this movement had a different economic significance. And policy.

Arrived at 14 pm, with Jean-Yves Le Drian, the defense minister, Francois Hollande, who was also accompanied by Serge Dassault and Olivier and Eric Trapier, CEO of the group, did not hide his pleasure. Hosted on leaving the presidential plane by passing a low-level burst above the factory, he then visited at no charge, the assembly line of the unit. A formality he concluded, as it should be: taking place in the cockpit of a Rafale.

Visit to the charge
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Francois Hollande on Wednesday when he arrived in Merignac, Gironde Photo © Quentin Salinier

Especially, Francois Hollande, in this temple of made in France, hope that this Egyptian contract will snowball. And that will lead to future sales overseas. If everyone thinks course to India, where negotiations are underway, the head of state did not want to say more: "India existed before the Egyptian contract, so we must continue discussions with the India, they will be long, as we know. Andyou must go to other countries that have proven interest in the Rafale after the Egyptian contract. We must leave no stone unturned. If the state believes French, then other friendly countries can believe us. "

francois-hollande-chez-dassault-a-merignac_2528938_800x533p.jpg
François Hollande Dassault Merignac. Photo © Quentin Salinier

A contract of 3.5 billion euros even more important that it is, as we know, the first export sales of this aircraft whose program was launched in 1988. For more 20 years hence, France, as the industry had failed to persuade foreign powers to build on this unit. So difficult, in these conditions, to the Elysée tenant not to support a bit more about the importance of this signature.

Indeed, if the head of state was keen to visit the final assembly site for the Rafale, located in the Bordeaux suburbs, it is above all to celebrate the sale, Egypt, 24 copies of this jewel the French combat aircraft.



" There, now, he says, many signs that the French economy recovers. The sale of the Rafale is one more. "

Prudence therefore, but in Merignac, François Hollande has not failed to include this success Rafale in a more global perspective. " There, now, he says, many signs that the French economy recovers. The sale of the Rafale is one more . There are many signs which suggest thatconsumption has support demand and we need more of this consumption is to investment so that there is more activity, more growth and more jobs. "

"The French economy recovers"
"If the state believes French, then other friendly countries can believe us."

François Hollande à Mérignac : "Le Rafale est un avion exceptionnel" - Nouvelles Aujourdhui
 
A Rafale B 1/91 on arrival at the base Natal (Brazil) after a transatlantic flight.

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A Rafale fighter squadron 1/91 " Gascogne" the color of the SAL 28 BA 113 St- Dizier, with the model of ASMP -A nuclear missile in flight during a refueling Boeing C135FR .
The aircraft was photographed at the time of the break , which explains the position of ducks , these small moving surfaces on the front wings. These are controlled via the computer , everything is transparent .
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On the ground, the cockpit and its plastic and composite materials.
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Viewing angle than presenting little on this page, that of the place of the browser operator of weapon systems (NOSA).
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Cockpit view of a rafale carrying a full load of bombs guided AASM modular and Damocles targeting pod.
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The geometry of a password is complex and depends on the movement of the target and the shooter, it varies depending on the angle of presentation or insertion maneuver, it changes depending on the wind or movement of the "biroutier", the aircraft towing the target. Today, the drive ended abruptly when the target was destroyed by a full frame shot, a feat repeated several times during the campaign. In the clash with the deadly shells, acoustic material was destroyed, turning the tool was a useless metal that Alphajets of 2/2 will drop later in a corner of the base of Solenzara.
10981866_806071996132881_716532379853402229_n.jpg
 
A Rafale B in the colors of 1/91 refuels a basket of pod of a KC- 135 of the US Air Force during exercise Thunder Lightning.
11043381_816493798424034_8841464868712735569_o.jpg


Over a desert region of Africa during the Serval operation, a 1/91 plane refuels from a C- 135FR of Britain.
The Serval mission lasted several hours and required several pit stops in flight, sometimes in difficult conditions due to intertropical front very active and turbulent.

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In the basket, less than 10 meters from the mothership. On a clear day and time, exercise can even be easy for an experienced pilot. But as soon as the weather deteriorates, the aircraft is heavy, as night falls, the thing becomes much more tense. And in this situation, the browser is just there for the ride, it completely depends on the driver and can, in extreme cases, try to calm him and reassure him.
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The hard part is done. Now that the pilot is in the basket, the exercise is similar to a flight in close formation, with well-established benchmarks, such as printed loop pipe to keep some maneuvering flexibility. In this position, when the parameters are fixed, it can remain in the basket the necessary time, at a rate of one ton per minute

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All pics from Gascogne Fb page
Escadron de chasse 01.091 "Gascogne" - Photos | Facebook
 
"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We have finalized our industrial agreements with the largest industrial partner HAL, which must manufactured a large part of aircraft locally. We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence." - Eric Frappier

Can't post a link :(

http://www.usinenouvelle
.com/editorial/rafale-le-patron-de-dassault-
optimiste-pour-un-deuxieme-contrat-en-2015.N317537
 
@Bhuvan93 : Link and details

Rafale Dassault boss optimistic for a second contract in 2015


Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation, the sale of 24 aircraft to Egypt helps stabilize jobs on the Rafale production line. If the new contract, the manufacturer could double its production rates.

On the sidelines of the visit of President of the Republic on March 4 at the assembly plant Rafale Merignac (Gironde), Eric Trappier, CEO of Dassault Aviation , told some optimism for the signing of a new contract in the course of this year. If he will not talk of an imminent signature, it evokes "some opportunities to make a second in 2015" .

The recent sales contract for 24 aircraft to Egypt has changed the situation and could speed up negotiations with India , Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Malaysia. "A number of countries that are very interested. They were already very interested in the mere fact that the Rafale is operational on a number of theaters of operation. At this operational success now adds a commercial success " , says Eric Trappier.


FINALIZE THE CONTRACT

The leader returned to the Indian contract. Negotiations for the sale of 126 Rafale last for more than three years.

"The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We finalized our industrial agreements with the largest industrial partner HAL has manufactured many of the aircraft locallyensures the leader. We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. "

DOUBLE THE RATE OF PRODUCTION?

The CEO also reports on industrial load Merignac site where 1200 people are employed in the production of Falcon business jets and Rafale. About 80 engineers, technicians and companions are mobilized directly on the combat aircraft assembly line. The plant has yet to produce fifty aircraft for the French army, which 24 Egyptian aircraft additive.

"This type of export contract has an immediate impact on the stabilization of employment. Due to some substitution of deliveries between the two countries, c ela provides a stream workload remains the same but lasts longer " , says the manager. If signed a second contract for export, the manufacturer could double its production rate exiting two per month.

Rafale : Le patron de Dassault optimiste pour un deuxième contrat en 2015 - Défense
 
HAL, Dassault to be ‘Joint Prime Contractors’ in Rafale MMRCA Deal: Eric Trappier

Dassault Aviation and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will be ‘joint prime contractors’ to manufacture 108 Rafale fighters in India clearing the way as to who will assume responsibility for timely delivery and quality of the aircraft.

Negotiations between Indian MoD and Dassault have been deadlocked over the past three years over various issues, many of which have been cleared but assuming responsibility for the aircraft made in India was considered the major stumbling block.

The decision on naming both companies’ as ‘joint prime contractors’ was described by Dassault chief executive Eric Trappier as a ‘new development’ implying that it may have been arrived at during the last few days or weeks.

If this is correct, then the last big hurdle to clear the US$20billion deal is on its way to be ironed out. Dassault as well as the Indian MoD are keen to decide on the deal before the visit of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France in April where contract is likely to be signed.

Trappier, who had accompanied French President François Hollande on a visit to Dassault’s factory in Bordeaux today was quoted as saying in French media reports that he expects a second Rafale contract this year in addition to the one signed with Egypt.

“India existed before the Egyptian contract, so we must continue talks with India, and we know they will be long. We must also talk to other countries that have shown interest in the Rafale since the Egyptian contract, and we must neglect no lead,” Hollande said in a speech to Dassault employees as quoted in the French media.



HAL, Dassault to be ‘Joint Prime Contractors’ in Rafale MMRCA Deal: Eric Trappier
 
Different times, different situation. Back then we were in no position to demand any liabilities and we had to pay for any mistakes of the vendors on our own. Things have changed and the Hawk, Scorpene or even the naval gun deals shows, that today we demand more in return for the money we spend and that vendors are ready to comply.
Exactly times have changed . These issues on taking guarantee has been solved .as of now Rafale can have counter guarantee from HAL and they are allowed to inspect the products .so I feel more like the deal is gone thru and waiting for Modi to comform it when he visits France. WHAT MORE DRAMATIC IT CAN GET WHEN THIS HAPPENS ? More diplomatic ties and help in technologies from France . I gueas
 
Won't change anything, just as his last visits didn't, because it's not a polictial issue, but an industrial with Dassault. So only negotiations with Dassault officials can change that, either they move or we do, but so far both sides seems to stick to their positions and I don't see how the DM or the NDA government can bow down anymore and agree to Dassaults demands.

Btw, in the recent scam about the documents of various ministries that were provided to privat industy companies, there were also arrests of officials of Reliance Industries. Do you think that could have an effect on the RIL / Dassault JV?
I couldn't follow the news completely, but I somewhere read that defence related documents were forwarded too, sounds pretty bad.



Missed your post earlier today, but very interesting stuff, especially about Verma, who said in December:



Doesn't look good anymore. :tsk:


Some more pics of the EF from IDEX 2015:
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View attachment 195827
Looks very loaded.
 
CEO Trappier :

[...] "The Indian Air Force is extremely pleased with the technical definitions. We have finalized our industrial agreements with the big industrial partner HAL which will manufacture many of the aircraft locally. We have a contractual sharing of tasks on which we agreed. Now we have to finalize the contract with the Indian Ministry of Defence. "

To double the production rate ?
The CEO also reviewed the industrial load on the Merignac site where 1,200 people work on the production of Falcon business jets and Rafale. About 80 engineers, technicians and companions are mobilized directly on the combat aircraft assembly line. The plant has yet to produce fifty aircraft for the French army [1] and 24 Egyptian aircraft.
"This type of export contract has an immediate impact on the stabilization of employment. Due to some substitution of deliveries between the two countries, it gives a flow workload which remains the same but lasts longer, "said the CEO. If a second contract for export is signed , the manufacturer could double its production rate , assembling 2 aircraft per month.


From:
http://www.usinenouvelle.com/editori...n-2015.N317537
 
Terminate the Rafale Deal

By Bharat karnad

Published: 06th March 2015 06:00 AM

Last Updated: 05th March 2015 10:31 PM


Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has repeatedly and publicly declared “there’s no Plan B”, that in effect it is Rafale or nothing with respect to the Indian Air Force’s dubious Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement. It merits his dismissal from service, because these words denote gross incompetence, failure to anticipate the unexpected and prepare for it—axiomatic in all military planning and, hence, of leadership. For every plan there is always an alternative plan of action in case things don’t work out as envisaged.

The absence of a fallback scheme is, of course, a ruse by Raha to pressurise the government into acceding to IAF’s wishes for the Rafale, despite defence minister Manohar Parrikar spelling out an alternative—the cost-effective, Nasik-produced Su-30MKI, which won’t require multi-billion dollar investment in another production facility and beats the French combat aircraft by any performance standard.

The prohibitive cost and questionable fighting qualities of the Rafale apart, the unwillingness of the French consortium headed by Dassault to guarantee the aircraft licence manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), and to fully meet transfer of technology (TOT) obligations involving Indian public and private sector entities directly or by way of offsets, too, are factors of serious concern.

Source codes, flight control laws, and “black box” technologies, including all aspects of the engine, advanced sensors and avionics are likely to be left out of any TOT agreement or worse, paid for but not delivered, if previous defence deals are any guide.

Dassault plans on supplying critical components and technologies for the entire production run of the “Indian-made” Rafale to ensure massive recurring profits, whence its insistence that its novice Indian partner, Reliance Aerospace, be part of the local production cycle. One other aspect is equally worrying. HAL assembling Rafale may face the kind of troubles Mazgaon Dockyard Ltd. is experiencing with the French Scorpene submarine where French vendors are delaying the supply of material and hence delaying induction and raising the direct and indirect costs.

The Price Negotiation Committees (PNCs) instituted by the defence ministry to hammer out contracts with foreign firms are to blame for such flawed transactions. Voluminous contracts are drawn up—the Rafale document reportedly exceeds 1,500 pages—but the use of indistinct language deliberately leaves large enough loopholes for even middling technologies, what to speak of the more sensitive “know why” knowledge, to be legitimately denied even as the suppliers pocket the monies the defence ministry is quick to disburse in full at the start. The PNCs need investigating, particularly for the vast leakage of the national wealth through this route.

A recent visit to HAL facilities by Dassault officials is a pointer to things to come. They complained to the US-based Defense News about the low productivity of HAL workforce and lack of economies of scale to argue that Indian-built Rafales will be costlier. Besides indicating that defence PSUs are not proficient in even the low-end screwdriver technology, the French hinted at further escalation of realistic cost beyond the presently estimated $30-$35 billion!

Flawed contracts drafted by PNCs that do not insist on penalties for time and cost overruns, and on staggered payments to fit delivery schedules, moreover, substantiate the fear repeatedly voiced by this analyst, of manipulation of assembly kits and spares supply, for foreign/economic policy reasons by France to ground the IAF squadrons at any time, is real. Such apprehensions are sought to be doused by Paris claiming that owing to TOT India will achieve “industrial autonomy”. But considering the guaranteed high level of French content in the supposedly “indigenous” Rafales, this is a laughable claim.

There are operational reasons as well why Rafale will be a liability. The IAF has always been wary of buying foreign aircraft accessible to its Pakistani counterpart. This was a reason for the rejection of F-16s as MMRCA given that they outfit the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) strike squadrons. Now consider this: Dassault is cock-a-hoop about the likely purchase by Qatar of some 66 Rafales. The Qatari Air Force (QAF) has traditionally been run by PAF pilots, with the understanding that these squadrons will switch to PAF use in any conflict with India. So, IAF Rafales will go up against Pakistani-flown Qatari Rafales that potentially will be better equipped and periodically upgraded with more sophisticated sensors, avionics, and weapons that Saudi Arabia will happily finance, as it did the $500 million deal for PAF’s F-16s and Pakistan’s acquisition of nuclear weapons and missile technologies from China. The Gulf regimes, after all, consider the Pakistan military their palace guard.

And, Rafales cannot be effectively used against China either. Why? Because, firstly, it will not survive sophisticated Chinese air defence; secondly, Dassault won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range to be integrated with it; and thirdly, because the Rafale is a compromised system for another reason. Pakistan is the prime conduit for Western military, especially aerospace, technologies to China. A Qatari Rafale will be disassembled in Pakistan for Chinese engineers to scrutinise, or wing its way to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Groupsite for its best features and technologies to be reverse-engineered and incorporated in Chinese combat aircraft, and otherwise permit the Chinese military to familiarise itself with its technical weaknesses and configure appropriate counter-measures and counter-tactics.

Every demerit attends on the Rafale aircraft deal, including its outrageous cost and negligible effects in growing a self-sufficient Indian defence industry. It should be terminated also because of the country’s meagre resources—the capital defence budget of `94,588 crore for 2015-16 remains unchanged from last year, and careful inter se choices will have to be made from among myriad military procurement programmes. In the competition for the defence rupee, the Rafale is eminently expendable. It is time Parrikar told IAF, using the words of former US defence secretary Robert Gates, that “there’s no endless money”. If a Rafale deal is still signed to crown Narendra Modi’s April 10 visit to France, the government will have much to answer for.
 

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