What's new

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Some new news on budget constrains and rafale

Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal
NEW DELHI — India may not have the funds to seal the deal with Dassault Aviation to purchase $12 billion Rafale fighter planes, according to an Air Force source.

If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.


P.S.

Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF

Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion

Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million

Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million

A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million

Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million

Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million

HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million

=> ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion

Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...
 
Last edited:
If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.


P.S.

Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF

Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion

Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million

Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million

A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million

Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million

Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million

HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million

=> ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion

Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...
There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.:(
If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !
 
If the deal would only be worth $12 billion, it might not be the issue at all, since the first paymeant would only be around $1.8 billion of the $5 billion procurement budget of the IAF. Realistically however it's between $15 and 20 billion, therefor between $2.25 and $3 billions and that would take a good bunch of the budget.


P.S.

Rs 31,481 crores (afaik $5.16 billion US Dollar) reported procurement budget for IAF

Rafale deal costs between $15 and 20 billion => 15% means $2.25 to $3 billion

Apache helicopter estimated around $1.1 billion => 15% means $165 million

Chinook helicopter estimated around $830 million => 15% means $124.5 million

A330 tanker estimated around $1.2 billion => 15% means $180 million

Avro replacement estimated around $2 billion => 15% means $300 million

Optional Pilatus trainer estimated around $245 million => 15% means $36 million

HAL HTT40 trainer estimated around $429 million => 15% means $64.3 million

=> ~ $3.2 to $3.9 billion

Not sure if the additional C130J order and the Do 228 order will still be accounted on the budget of 2014/15, since the FY is not over yet. Also not included the LUH deal, which most likely won't happen before 2016 anymore, additional AWACS orders, IJT(?), additional C17s or similar heavy lifters...

There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.:(
If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !

However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available.



http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...ked-for/49270/


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

French President François Hollande speaks to officials and employees of Dassault Aviation during his March 4 visit at Bordeaux-Mérignac
hmksU4.jpg


France Expects One, Maybe Two, Rafale Sales This Year
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...this-year.html
 
There is one problem with your assumptions, You didn't considered orders already signed.Their yearly payment will be more than 50 % of CAPX for sure.:(
If any two deals in Apache/Chinook/A330 is signed, there is no place for Rafale !

I am talking about the budget for new procurements, not for the running costs and older contracts must fall under the latter.

However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available.

There is no confirmation about that, allthough the unplanned expenditure budget got a considerable increase, thanks to more loans than initially planned, but nobody knows for what the government has planned this for. So wait and see.
 
Cross posting from a diff forum a paragraph which awakened my interest a lot

"Funding it from the current budget is not feasible. The MoD's proposal will be forwarded for approval to the MoF which can then sanction supplementary funding under a discretionary heading. If it does get the contract Dassault can still probably defer the first payment tranche to the next fiscal as long as the GoI is committed to the purchase in writing."

This logic seems very much possible to me and applicable to any deal of sizable proportion especially Rafale..
 
What about cnc report? Wasn't it supposed to come by feb end?

What about cnc report? Wasn't it supposed to come by feb end?
 
Heights of Stupidity. Pls read and bang your heads.. :hitwall::hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:

| Take early decision on MMRCA | The Echo of India

Take early decision on MMRCA | The Echo of India

As its fleet strength gets depleted even as India’s, security environment worsens, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is in desperate need of inducting more medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA). In fact, the early acquisition of a good number of these aircraft has become an urgent necessity for the IAF. After a long process of flight tests and tests for suitability of the aircraft in India conditions, the French Rafale was selected. But negotiations between Dassault, its manufacturers, and the Indian Government have been dragging on for years. Meanwhile, there has been a heavy cost escalation. The original deal was for 8 billion dollars for the supply of 126 aircraft. It has now gone up to nearly 14 billion dollars. Further delay in clinching the deal will mean more cost escalation.

The exact reasons for the delay in clinching the deal are not known. Even after the visit of the French Defence Minister’s meeting with his Indian counterpart in Delhi late last month (Le Drian came for the specific purpose of finalizing the deal), doubts and uncertainties remain. One reason for the delay is said to be the ‘unreliability’ of Dassault as a supplier. The company had entered into an agreement with Russia for the delivery of some aircraft but started delaying its obligations when France came under heavy pressure from the USA and Germany in the wake of the strong Western disapproval of the Russian stand on Ukraine. The IAF developed strong reservations about the French company after this.

Now India is reported to be seeking an alternative to Rafale. One obvious choice is the Russian Sukhoi (Su-37), :omghaha::omghaha::omghaha::omghaha: which is said to have more maneuverability as an MMRCA, equipped with an upgraded avionic suite and fire-control system and its remarkably good thrust-vectoring nozzles. This aircraft recently gave demonstration of its performance at Bangalore along with other countries’ aircraft. The point is that whatever the final choice – the French Rafale or the Russian Su-37 – the decision has to be taken quickly and the required number of aircraft inducted into the IAF without any avoidable loss of time. Assuming that a possible war into which India might be forced will be conventional, not nuclear, the role of the air force in neutralizing the enemy will be crucial and supportive of the ground forces. Prime Minister Modi should intervene to ensure that the acquisition of these vital aircraft is not further delayed.

LOL. Indian Reporting standards are falling very badly. ....All they quote is Mistral and voila a new update is ready :disagree::disagree::disagree:.

On Top Su 37, an experimental flanker that never entered production and that ceased development in the 20th century is the "obvious choice" of IAF. :cuckoo::cuckoo::cuckoo:

Talk about logic... :man_in_love::man_in_love::man_in_love:
 
Last edited:
Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?

New Delhi Won't Comment on 5th-Gen Fighter Contract with Russia

ABU DHABI — Moscow and New Delhi have agreed to perform design work in India on what Russia claims would be a "fifth generation" version of the Su-35, an agreement that may lead to an Indian variant of the fighter jet, the Russian Military Complex chief said.
The announcement makes India the first country to sign a contract, however preliminary, for the S version of the Su-35.
"We have been negotiating and have signed the intention protocol for the Su-35," Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov said during the IDEX show in Abu Dhabi last month. "Now we are working on designing ideas for this contract and on creating a manufacturing platform for the aircraft of the fifth generation."
Rostec is Russia's state-run corporation that oversees export of high-tech products.
Chemezov said the jet would be developed to meet the Indian Air Force's requirements. He did not say how many of the jets India might plan to buy.
Russia claims the Su-35S would be a fifth generation fighter, as opposed to the legacy fourth generation Su-35. That implies stealth, but it's unclear whether the jet would be on par with an F-35 joint strike fighter.
In India, however, no source in the Defence Ministry could confirm that any deal had been signed with Russia on the Su-35S. An Air Force official did say that the Russians have made one or two Su-35S presentations in the past six months on how it can help replace India's MiG-21 and MiG-27 fighter aircraft, which are due for retirement in seven or eight years.
Russian industry sources said the fighter will be priced at $85 million. That could make it competitive with Dassault Aviation's Rafale, and could have implications for India's proposed purchase of 126 Rafales. New Delhi selected the Rafale as the preferred bidder in a protracted competition in 2012, but has yet to make a final decision on the purchase.
Indian and French defense ministers discussed the Rafale deal during Jean-Yves Le Drian's recent visit to India, an Indian MoD source said. But Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar did not provide a time commitment to Le Drian on when the deal will be signed.
Parrikar told Le Drian that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) has been asked to complete cost estimates for the Rafales it will build under license.
The French defense minister's spokesman was not available for comment.
A Dassault Aviation spokesman, asked about the Indian agreement for design work on the Su-35S, said the Indian Air Force chief has said a Sukhoi cannot replace a Rafale.
In India, the Economic Times, reported on Feb. 19 that Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha ruled out a purchase of additional Su-30s as the Russian fighter and the Rafale complemented each other rather than the former replacing the latter.
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is due to visit Paris in April, which could be an opportunity for some clarification on the potential Rafale deal, Agence-France Presse has reported.
Russian aircraft makers have been eagerly proclaiming their willingness to step in if India ultimately rejects the French jet. Many believe Russia wants to undercut France as punishment for Paris refusing to deliver two Mistral helicopters carriers to Russia amid deepening tensions with Ukraine.
"If [India] needs additional Su-30MKI fighters, then we are ready to work out such an agreement," Sergei Goreslavsky, deputy director of Russia's arms export agency Rosoboronexport, told the RIA Novosti news agency on Feb. 16. India operates a large fleet of Sukhoi Su-30 fighters, some of which have been locally produced by HAL.
And Russia's RSK MiG says it would offer an upgraded version of its developmental MiG-35 if India reopens the tender.
"We have every chance to compete [for the contract]," MiG chief Sergei Korotkov said at Aero India on Feb. 18, according to the RIA Novosti new agency. "We have not lost hope that a future tender or competition will be announced."
India remains dependent on Russia to supply weaponry and the two countries have been successful in conducting joint development programs involving advanced technologies, including the co-production of the supersonic BrahMos cruise missile.
"Efforts will be made to modernize the Indian defense forces with emphasis on Make-in-India defense programs," an Indian MoD official said. "India remains committed to buy advanced technologies."
India's dependence on Russia for the bulk of its weapons systems, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta.
"India wants to buy advanced systems like the Rafale, even at a higher cost," he said. "[But] dependence on Russians will remain ... and it would be difficult to find the resources to replace these with advanced systems immediately."
Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said the Su-35S would enter Russian service this year as part of the expansion of the Air Force and Naval Aviation branch.
"Currently, we're testing a new Su-35S multifunctional fighter jet. This year, the new aircraft should enter service. This is the main task for this year," Shoigu said in February.
China is also considering a purchase of Su-35s. A February report by Zvezda, a television network run by the Russian military, said that long-running talks might conclude with a deal to buy 24 fighters on May 19.
Chemezov said that the contract, if signed, would provide China with the fourth-generation Su-35, not India's fifth-generation S model.
"This aircraft is called Su-35-4 plus PAK-FA generation and we are negotiating with China and we are in progress and I hope it will be over soon. I wouldn't like to discuss contracts that have still not been signed," he said. "The important point is that this is a very unique aircraft that has not been delivered to any country."
Another potential customer for the Su-35 is Egypt. Last fall, Russian President Vladimir Putin and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi signed an arms deal reportedly worth $3.5 billion. Egyptian media reported that the package included Su-35s.
But Chemezov said no firm purchase deal had been settled.
"We have not signed anything with Egypt; we signed an intention protocol and we are negotiating it. I hope soon we will sign a contract," he said.
Experts have suggested that Egypt, long a customer of US arms makers, would have trouble integrating Russian hardware.
"This would require a significant investment and both sides have been in negotiations for years without results," said Ruslan Aliev, of Moscow's Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.
But Chemezov said the two countries have already agreed on training protocols in case the purchase goes through.
"As a matter of fact, the terms and conditions of the contract that have been signed maintain not only the delivery and other terms but also the training," he said. "First the pilot will be trained in Russia and later in Egypt, as an example when we supplied the helicopters to the Pentagon, which were then delivered to Afghanistan the pilots took their training to Russia."
Pierre Tran in Paris and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report.

Could Su-35S Deal Edge Out Rafale in India?
 
Dassault can still probably defer the first payment

That's wishful thinking, no company in the world and all the support industry would start the production of a full squad of fighters without the first payment. That's common procedure and even our own DPP makes such a payment clear.
 
Editorial: Rafale a Better Option for India

Now that Paris has shelved plans to deliver two helicopter assault ships to Russia, Moscow is working overtime to convince India to dump plans to buy French fighters and instead buy a new Sukhoi jet.

In 2012, New Delhi tapped Dassault's Rafale as its next fighter, with plans to acquire 126 of the twin-engine jets for $12 billion. At the time, Indian officials said the French jet would help them reduce their reliance on Russian equipment (India also flies French Mirage 2000 jets as part of a longstanding policy to avoid exclusive dependence on Moscow for military hardware).

By choosing Rafale, India also gains access to cutting-edge technology to advance its aerospace and defense industries.

But talks have stalled over price and who would bear responsibility for Rafales license-produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

Russia is irked that its once-close ally has invested tens of billions of dollars on American transports, helicopters and maritime patrol planes and now is about to buy French jets.

At the recent IDEX trade show in Abu Dhabi, Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov announced that Russia and India had inked a deal to co-develop a new version of Sukhoi's Su-35. Indian officials, however, say Russia has pitched the jet, but have not yet agreed to move forward on the project.

The Su-35 is a formidable aircraft and an improvement over India's Su-30s, but the Rafale is superior as a system, with greater mission capability and reliability. And its technology is more likely to serve as a foundation for a more competitive Indian defense and aerospace industry.

The entire rationale behind the Rafale deal wasn't to get the least expensive fighter to meet India's needs, but the aircraft that would best satisfy the nation's long-range military needs as well as its industrial interests.

Editorial: Rafale a Better Option for India



/
 
You are a dad ? :woot: Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?
I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...
 
I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...

Congratulations to you too. :tup:
 
Dassault-HAL parleys on to beat deadlock
By SP's Special Correspondent

Dassault-MMRCA.jpg
March 07, 2015: With PM Narendra Modi all set to visit France for the first time as prime minister next month, Dassault and HAL have begun negotiations to hammer out a liability sharing arrangement that could break the final hurdle to a contract for 126 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force as part of the M-MRCA programme. At a meeting between French and Indian delegations at the MoD recently, it was made clear that the RFP was the final word on the subject of liability, and that it clearly stated that liability for all aircraft would be on the original equipment manufacturer. The stumbling block has since distilled down, with the government now giving Dassault Aviation a list of options it can exercise in terms of formulating a joint liability understanding with HAL. Should this be achievable, the path to a contract would presumably be clear. However, there remains the issue of finance for the programme, though the political leadership has made it clear that the M-MRCA will be funded adequately. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier told journalists in France this week that the company had entered into successful negotiations with HAL and was in the process of finalising an understanding. Any such liability arrangement would be a first in India, and unlike any comparable programme. For instance, HAL owns the liability on its license manufactured Su-30 MKIs at Nashik, not Rosoboronexport. It remains to be seen what the details of the final arrangement will be.



Dassault HAL parleys on to beat deadlock
- SP's MAI


 
Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization
Mar 10, 2015
Unlike Rafale, which is an operational aircraft produced on a hot production line, the SU-50S is still in development and flight testing, let alone SU-50ES (FGFA) which is a high risk development product that has yet to be started.

What seems to be the final stage of negotiation between India and France over the procurement of 126 Rafale fighter jets is turning into a circus: New Delhi is walking on a tightrope, between approving the deal with a dramatic cost increase compared to the original budget, or ditching the plan, risking further delays in modernizing the Indian Air Force (IAF).

The current chapter in the three-year-long saga opens with orchestrated media reports auguring an accelerated induction of Russian SU-50E – an export version of the – the Indian variant of the Russian T-50 PAK-FA – which would mean a ‘generation leap’ over the current IAF first line fighter jets as well as over the GEN-4.5 Rafale.

While delivery of 18 fighters from France can be expected in time, the orderly delivery of the follow-on 108 locally produced aircraft is more questionable. It was Dassault’s concern about the Indian competency to produce these aircraft at a reasonable quality which brought the negotiations with India to a standstill. Sukhoi sees this as an opportunity, since they have already paved the way with the SU-30 MKI currently produced in India. Sukhoi hopes the production of SU-50E and SU-55 (the two-seat Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft –FGFA) could continue where the production of SU-30 ends, providing a more manageable quality control process.

If this deal goes forward, the SU-50E is expected to be delivered from 2017 onwards with the IAF expected to induct over 300 aircraft in the following two decades at a cost of US$25 billion. This is an extremely ambitious schedule, as the Russians themselves do not expect to receive their first SU-50 before the end of 2016. Currently undergoing flight testing as T-50 prototypes, the Russian Air Force expects forming 2-3 squadrons of fifth generation SU-50 by 2020.

The Indian export variants of the SU-50/55 are the biggest-ever bilateral Indo-Russian defence cooperation project. The preliminary design agreement on SU-50ES (FGFA), signed in 2010 between HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau, was to build the jet for use by both countries, with India investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme.

Ditching Rafale – could mean a high risk alternative for IAF modernization | Defense Update:

 
I also became dad (boy). I joined this forum in 2010 when I just began my career when this competition was really on song and now in 2015 am dad.. 5 years.. Yet my posts are below 1000.. I am kind of reader... Specially post of sancho and some other TT/Professionals...
--
congrats
 

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom