Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[halloweene]

Usual Bharat Karnad... It has been a long time since there aren't anymore pakistanese pilots in Middle East. All the rest is pure speculation, not a single fact.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Besides indicating that defence PSUs are not proficient in even the low-end screwdriver technology, the French hinted at further escalation of realistic cost beyond the presently estimated $30-$35 billion!

Source codes, flight control laws, and “black box” technologies, including all aspects of the engine, advanced sensors and avionics are likely to be left out of any TOT agreement or worse, paid for but not delivered, if previous defence deals are any guide.

The Qatari Air Force (QAF) has traditionally been run by PAF pilots, with the understanding that these squadrons will switch to PAF use in any conflict with India. So, IAF Rafales will go up against Pakistani-flown Qatari Rafales that potentially will be better equipped and periodically upgraded with more sophisticated sensors, avionics, and weapons that Saudi Arabia will happily finance, as it did the $500 million deal for PAF’s F-16s and Pakistan’s acquisition of nuclear weapons and missile technologies from China. The Gulf regimes, after all, consider the Pakistan military their palace guard.

And, Rafales cannot be effectively used against China either. Why? Because, firstly, it will not survive sophisticated Chinese air defence; secondly, Dassault won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range to be integrated with it; and thirdly, because the Rafale is a compromised system for another reason. Pakistan is the prime conduit for Western military, especially aerospace, technologies to China. A Qatari Rafale will be disassembled in Pakistan for Chinese engineers to scrutinise, or wing its way to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Groupsite for its best features and technologies to be reverse-engineered and incorporated in Chinese combat aircraft, and otherwise permit the Chinese military to familiarise itself with its technical weaknesses and configure appropriate counter-measures and counter-tactics.

30-35 Billion ---- Lol our def budget is 40B.. I guess he means to say rafale occupies 80-90% of def budget if we consider cost... unless he is quoting life cycle cost in which case he should also say 50% of that cost is via offset and the cost is over 40 years.. In such a scenario the deal cost is 15-17 Bn then and offsets is also 15-17 Bn. Now that offset size and probable impact on our defence industry could be a very significant aspect. To me this sizable industry conglomerate can readily contribute into AMCA and FGFA project as and when this industry matures there by increasing the indigenisation aspect and lowering the cost prospect

TOT for god sake why we all are speculating.. let the fine print come out.. if for pilatus gov gets a rap for a improper decision do u think MMRCA would escape scrutiny. I am sure auditors would be licking lips to the prospect of finding something which gives the media glorification for next 5 years and 5 star treatment to Honorable bureaucrats closing to superannuation. So lets wait before writing so much. If RFP had specified and still all are brushed under the carpet then even GOD cant help this country.. so patience is the key for the moment

Qatari giving birds to PAF . Its stupid atm again to say middle east dominated by Pak pilots which is not presently the case and PAF having supplementary squadrons via Qatar or shadow squads with help of Saudi. Its a height of propaganda based information manipulation.

Chinese AD/ Brahmos Integration both are thoughtless. Chinese AD if its sophisticated then even MKI wont survive. lol.. Without air superiority you dont send across your swing based jets or A2G deep strikes from the border region. i think if Mr Karnad feels MKI would be able to do the impossible of evading all Chinese AD and deliver "Brahmos" and Rafale cannot then may be he feels MKI is 6-7Generation bird. Brahmos Mini is not even tested as of now so how he can think of integration? its counting too much ahead.

China reverse engineering Rafale and using the tech on its home grown birds is a bit of exaggeration. Dassault is not a company of fools.. They are hard businessmen who know for sure sucha reverse engineering would lead to what result. Moreover China can reverse engineer any system it lays a hand on.. so no system India can buy is not within Chinese reverse engineering capability. On the contrary since we have maximum russian systems and China had done maximum reverse engineering of it, we are in more danger then to compare with rafale issue only. Who can guarantee that China had not got details of Su 30 MKK or MKI from Russia and reversed the best results into their own developed jets. So this point is just playing on fears.. One must commend china .. at least inspite of IPR they still go ahead discreetly and do the things necessary for their Defence. Here out of fear, we wont buy the systems only...


Well in the end a strong article which makes a common man think Rafale is ultimate useless weapon, a white elephant. Sorry but thats not the case. Whether India buys rafale or not is different. But none of the points pointed by Mr Karnad is correct. Its a mad fear in his mind which makes him say and write all this jingoism and no substance.

For Mr Karnad, i present the next write up for his article
France & Pakistan to revive JF-17 Avionics/EW/Missiles deal as Indian MMRCA stalls.

the "fact" that we have Pak Military industrial complex quoting such deal of france giving advanced systems means Dassault are leaking rafale by parts to PAF upfront and not by reverse engineering.. That i think should be the basis of his next article.

BTW i dont care if India gets rafale or not.. if yes then awesome.. if no its cool.. but tarnishing a bird like this is always unacceptable. but democracy lets us have freedom of speech. So i should also respect views especially a contrarian view.. in that regard, this article is good. at least it covers the points of fear and introspect into every detail again..

 

[SpArK]

I wish to have both the above, if not rafyy then hornets.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

^^^ Jai and veeru together (MKI and rafale)

Hornets i do wish can fill the stop gap arrangement till 2030 if raffy fails to finalise.. May be as talks of line close down in 2017-18 are there, we can negotiate for whole line perhaps? BTW following is an excerpt from latest development

The F/A-18 Super Hornet infrared search and track (IRST) system, developed and integrated by Boeing [NYSE: BA] and Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT], received approval from the U.S. Navy to enter low-rate initial production.

The IRST system consists of Lockheed Martin’s IRST21™ sensor, the GE Aviation FPU-13 Fuel Tank Assembly and the Meggitt Defense Industry Environmental Control unit. The system demonstrated its production readiness through a series of extensive assessments and reviews, including flight tests.

“This ‘see first, strike first’ capability can be used in a variety of threat environments and is a game changer for our warfighters as we combat future adversaries,” said U.S. Navy F/A-18 program manager Capt. Frank Morley. IRST is expected to deploy on the F/A-18 Super Hornet in 2017.

IRST21 is the next generation of Lockheed Martin’s legacy IRST sensor system, which accumulated more than 300,000 flight hours on the U.S. Navy’s F-14 and international F-15 platforms. The long-range IRST21 sensor uses infrared search and track technology to detect, track and enable the Super Hornet to engage threats with air-to-air weapons.

In addition to detecting airborne threats, IRST significantly enhances multiple target resolution compared to radar, providing greater discrimination of threat formations at longer ranges. Data from the IRST21 sensor is fused with other on-board F/A-18 sensor data to provide maximum situational awareness to the warfighter.

IRST21 Sensor System


U.S. Navy Approves F/A-18 Super Hornet IRST System for Production · Lockheed Martin

 

[SpArK]

French Navy Rafale M Fighter Conducts Qualifications with USS Carl Vinson in the Gulf

In what seems to be becoming a tradition between the two allied navies, a French Navy (Marine Nationale) Rafale M fighter crossed deck with US Navy nuclear-powever aircraft carrier (CVN) USS Carl Vinson. The US aircraft carrier and the French Navy CVN Charles de Gaulle are currently deployed in the Persian Gulf to conduct strike operations in Iraq.

ARABIAN GULF (March 3, 2015) A French navy Rafale Marine aircraft from Squadron 11F embarked aboard the French navy nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle (R91) launches from U.S. Navy nuclear powered aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70). Carl Vinson is deployed as part of the Carl Vinson Carrier Strike Group supporting maritime security operations, strike operations in Iraq and Syria as directed, and theater security cooperation efforts in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class John Philip Wagner, Jr./Released)

The goal of this "cross deck" was to qualify the Dassault Aviation Rafale M fighter with USS Carl Vinson. The French navy CSG started air operations above Iraq last week.

The Rafale M is fully compatible with US Navy aircraft carriers and some French Navy pilots have already qualified to fly the aircraft from US Navy flight decks. This marks the fourth time French navy Rafale M operates with a US Navy CVN:
- On 4 June 2010, during an exercise on USS Harry S. Truman, a French Rafale became the first jet fighter of a foreign navy to have its engine replaced on board an American aircraft carrier.
- In 2008 six Rafales from Flottille 12F integrated into the USS Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Air Wing interoperability exercise.
- In july 2007 two Rafale M conducted touch and go, traps, and catapult launch maneuvers with USS Enterprise off the French Riviera.

 

[nik22]

Wow, Rafale had maiden flight in 1986. That is nearly 30 years.

Wow, Rafale had maiden flight in 1986. That is nearly 30 years.

May be off topic. Our tejas seem to be doing not too bad. Tejas is like a 14 year old compare to 21 year Eurofighter, 30 Rafale.

 

[sancho]

Exactly times have changed . These issues on taking guarantee has been solved .as of now Rafale can have counter guarantee from HAL and they are allowed to inspect the products .so I feel more like the deal is gone thru and waiting for Modi to comform it when he visits France. WHAT MORE DRAMATIC IT CAN GET WHEN THIS HAPPENS ? More diplomatic ties and help in technologies from France . I gueas

The news about being joint prime contractors gives some hope, since it hints on Dassault finally moving and taking at least some responsibility, which they avoided for the last 3 years. Lets hope things will see an end now, they deal is still reasonably good.

Looks very loaded.

Oh yes, in fact with 4 x Paveway IV LGB's + 6 x Brimstone missiles and the Litening, it doubles the CAS load of the Tornados, which is more than impressive! By 2019 when the RAF replaces their Tornados, the EF will be more than a worthy replacement. And the recent pics of test flights with new aerodynamic modifications, shows that the preperation for CFTs are going on as well. They too more than a decade to actually push the capability of the EF, but now it really gets to be credible multi role fighter.

If a second contract for export is signed , the manufacturer could double its production rate , assembling 2 aircraft per month.

That only tells us about the capacity they aim on, not the time frame of ramping up and delivering the fighters. They won't be able to start producing 2 per months from tomorrow onwards of course, especially since the industry that provides all the subsystems would need to ramp up production too.

^^^ Jai and veeru together (MKI and rafale)

Hornets i do wish can fill the stop gap arrangement

IAF won't add any more type of fighters other than LCA, MMRCA, MKI, FGFA and if necessary AMCA. Several air chiefs stated that there won't be a split and that IAF wants to reduce the burden of operating too many types of fighters. So F18SH's / US fighters in general are out of question for IAF.

 

[sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/573753855483121664

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Safran Engineering Services, a French multinational aerospace-component and defence company, plans to go in for a major expansion of its Indian operations if the Dassault Rafale deal to supply 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force goes through, according to Arun Nayar, Director of the company.

The firm had already identified land to facilitate its expansion.

The global aerospace industry, he said, was moving towards quieter, greener and fuel-efficient engines.

Safran had tied up with Honeywell to develop EGTS, an electric system that would help aircraft taxi to runways without using its jet engines.

French aerospace firm plans expansion in India - The Hindu

Safran Honeywell EGTS System - An innovative fuel saving system with a positive environmental impact. Significantly improving operational efficiency by reducing fuel consumption and other taxi related costs

 

[Abingdonboy]

Safran Engineering Services, a French multinational aerospace-component and defence company, plans to go in for a major expansion of its Indian operations if the Dassault Rafale deal to supply 126 aircraft to the Indian Air Force goes through, according to Arun Nayar, Director of the company.
Speaking at the inaugural function of Anokha 2015, a three-day annual National-level student technical festival organised by the Amrita University in Coimbatore from Thursday, he said that the aerospace and defence industry in India would also receive a major boost if the contract materialised.

The firm had already identified land to facilitate its expansion. The global aerospace industry, he said, was moving towards quieter, greener and fuel-efficient engines.
Safran had tied up with Honeywell to develop EGTS, an electric system that would help aircraft taxi to runways without using its jet engines.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/...cle6964903.ece

 

[Tshering22]

Gentlemen, I think we can officially put this forum to a rest after the latest news that Rafale is coming to IAF.

From the days of my studies to now when I am a dad..

What all can happen in a defence deal!

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Gentlemen, I think we can officially put this forum to a rest after the latest news that Rafale is coming to IAF.

From the days of my studies to now when I am a dad..

What all can happen in a defence deal!

You are a dad ? Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?

 

[Tshering22]

You are a dad ? Congratulations ....... boy or girl ?

Became one 7 few months ago.

Both actually.

Twins.

But let's take the conversation to personal messages.

Don't want to derail the thread.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Some new news on budget constrains and rafale

Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal
NEW DELHI — India may not have the funds to seal the deal with Dassault Aviation to purchase $12 billion Rafale fighter planes, according to an Air Force source.

While India plans to boost hike defense spending by almost 8 percent, defense analysts and military officers say it falls short of expectations and isn't enough to buy fresh weaponry.

India will spend US $40.4 billion on defense in the April 1 2015-March 31 2016 financial year, according to the Feb. 28 proposal to Parliament.

That's an increase of 7.74 percent over the previous year. The previous year's budget went up 12.4 percent.

Finance Minister Arun Jaitley gave no additional funds in the "Capital Account Head" of the budget proposals, which is earmarked to buy fresh weapons. The budget included the same amount as last year: $15.5 billion.

"With the stagnation in capital expenditure, I believe there is very little left in the budget to cater to new contracts," said Laxman Behera, research fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses think tank in New Delhi.

Amit Cowshish, retired Defence Ministry finance adviser and defense analyst, said: "It is unlikely that the allocation [under Capital Account] would cater for only committed liabilities."

Said an Air Force officer: "With no fresh money it is unlikely if we can contract the $12 billion Rafale fighter deal with Dassault Aviation of France, nor buy additional aircraft in the next financial year."

The contract is to be paid in installments, with 15 percent due at the signing of the deal.

At best, a $2.5 billion deal finalized two years ago to purchase attack and heavy lift helicopters from Boeing could be inked as the US company has threatened to hike the price if the deal is delayed, the official added.

"The budget allocation may not be sufficient even for contracted projects as they are carry over from the 2014-15 budget on capital account," said Rahul Bhonsle, retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) promised during that election to modernize defense and meet weapons requirements, said defense analyst Nitin Mehta. "The first full budget of the new government announced Feb. 28 is a let down on expectations," he said.

"There are serious concerns over government's commitment to fully budget India's defense and security needs despite statements by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on modernization of the armed forces," he said.

Said Mehta: "Sadly, the budget reflects continuation of the policies of the previous government. For structural changes there has to be greater synergy between the Ministry of Defence and Finance."

Behera said security needs to have support from both the government and lawmakers.

"However, such security needs are to be satisfied within the overall resource availability," he said. "The defense budget 2015-16 has been subject to resource crunch arising out of slowdown in revenue mobilization and greater devolution of resources to the state government."

However, Cowshish said defense still constitutes around 13.88 percent of India's total budget and as such is a major chunk of allocation.

"Defense budget is the second largest single item of expenditure in the non-plan segment of the union budget. One has to keep these facts in view while forming an opinion on whether the allocation is in sync with the promise or not," Cowshish said.

With such a tight defense budget, it remains to be seen which of the ongoing programs will be inked. Nearly $20 billion worth weapons purchase projects are in the mix, including:

• $12 billion to purchase medium multirole fighter jets
• $1.2 billion for six Airbus A330 tankers
• $1.1 billion for 22 Boeing Apache attack helicopters
• $1 billion for 197 light utility helicopters,
• $833 million for 15 Boeing Chinook heavy lift helicopters,
• $600 million for light howitzer guns from BAE Systems
• $200 million for 98 Black Shark torpedoes from WASS
• $350 million for 1,418 Israeli-made thermal imaging sights for T-72 tanks
• $250 million for 262 Barak missiles from Israel Aerospace Industries

Indian Budget Casts Doubt on Rafale Deal

 

[CONNAN]

French President François Hollande speaks to officials and employees of Dassault Aviation during his March 4 visit at Bordeaux-Mérignac

France Expects One, Maybe Two, Rafale Sales This Year
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...this-year.html