Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

Egypt deal

• The Rafale, frigate and missiles will be covered by specific contracts rather than a global contract, the first official said.
• Egypt will pay for half of the total deal using its own funds, with the other half financed by bank loans, the official said.
• The bank loans will be insured by Coface, the French state-backed export credit guarantee department, the official said. That 50:50 ratio of payment reflects the guidance set by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
• The Coface insurance means the French government would repay banks and manufacturers if Egypt fell into payment problems on the loans.
• The size of the down payments would differ for the fighters, frigate and missiles as the amount depends on whether the platform is built. As the Normandie frigate is built, the down payment would be larger than the standard 15 percent.
• BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole and Societé Générale are the banks raising the bank loans for the Egypt contracts, French media have reported.
• Source: In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt

If you give liberal terms like these, with semi guarantee of 50% payment by French government in case Egypt fails to pay what it shows is simply the desperation of Dassault to sell Rafale urgently. Strangely, why this desperation is not seen versus India where contract is potentially 126+63 vs 24 implying almost 8 times size with sizeable TOT as well as a second line at HAL giving benefit of supplying assurance in case of Nato pressures also (specifically counters all future issues in the category of Mistral fallout where bcz of Nato pressures France did not hand over Mistral to Russia).

I can clearly spell it out that these types of terms wont be repeated again and again. This move is only to shift France own commitment of buying rafale and rescheduling it via Egypt deal so that its outflow gets limited and still say "we are committed to Rafale"


I also feel by selling arms to Egypt Dassault is trying its best to pep up that entire region to see who else can buy from them asap.

After reading various sources and full colored views of Russian media and false marketing as well as a propaganda warfare with offerings of anything and everything, France and particularly Dassault needs to wake up badly. Thats all i can say. Hopefully today we may hope to see a more positive approach.. and hints of whats in store. If only Dassault acts a bit smartly, the twin benefits to both nation seems immense.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Parrikar meets French DM over MMRCA, no sign of breakthrough yet
Published February 24, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: IDRW NEWS NETWORK (INN)

France’s defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian who arrived late Monday evening had a 90 minutes closed-door talks with his Indian counterpart Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar in New Delhi earlier today to bring in fresh lease of life to MMRCA deal and on possible sale of 126 Rafale fighter jets to India which is under deadlock for last few months due to differences.

Indian media for last few weeks have been speculating near collapse of the deal with French company, Jean-Yves Le Drian second visit in less than two months is to salvage possible collapse of the sale. Indian defence minister has put 31st March as the deadline with French officials to conclude negotiations which have been going on for last three years. Dassault Aviation won the right in January 2012 to enter exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters, with experts saying a final deal could be worth $12 billion.

Various meetings held on sidelines of Aero India 2015 with French officials failed to produce desired results and While Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha stressed that Su-30MKI’s cannot replace Rafale jets since both aircrafts have different roles to fulfill, but then he made a confusing statement saying he wants Medium Multirole Class aircrafts , it can be some other aircraft too it doesn’t have to be Rafale, which surprised many Defence experts.

India currently is sandwiched between need to fund development of other platforms like Tejas MK-2, AMCA and FGFA which are crucial for Indian Air Force’s fleet Modernisation and expansion plans , Bailing out on MMRCA will not be easy but hard call needs to be made said Defence expert Vinayak Shetty .

Only positives French could take from Aero India 2015 was when Parrikar refused to comment on Rafale deal and said that Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) was still discussing it and he will comment only after they submit their reports, which was expected in next few weeks but again he insisted that negotiation has to be concluded by March end clearly setting a deadline. Earlier Parrikar had said that he is in favour of purchasing additional Su-30MKI if deal with French collapses.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit Paris in April and both sides wanted to reach final agreements before his visit so March end deadline was set. Parrikar already has hinted that final call will be taken by Prime Minister’s office whether to proceed or cancel further rounds of negotiations with french officials on purchase of Rafale fighter jets if deadlock is not broken by March end .

Parrikar meets French DM over MMRCA, no sign of breakthrough yet | idrw.org

 

[sancho]

I am certain they come bearing gifts, why else would he make this trip ?

You might want to check how often he, or other French government officials visited India since the election last year and what effect these visits had on the MMRCA deal. This is just political support, but French government has no leverage over Dassault, which was pretty evident in the UAE as well, where they were even pretty angry about Dassaults behaviour. This deal is stuck on Dassault taking responsibility till the last fighter is delivered or not and that is only up to Dassault to decide. If they say no, it's up to the Indian government to reject it or not and that's all that we are talking about now.

If you give liberal terms like these, with semi guarantee of 50% payment by French government in case Egypt fails to pay what it shows is simply the desperation of Dassault to sell Rafale urgently. Strangely, why this desperation is not seen versus India where contract is potentially 126+63 vs 24 implying almost 8 times

IMO here you can see the difference between dealing with the French government and Dassault!

The Egypt deal is largly negotiated and done by the French Government, not only by giving the guarantees for the loans, but also by diverting Rafale orders for the French forces, to Egypt. They don't have to talk to Dassault for that and since the deal does not include any ToT, or industrial benefits from Dassault, the OEM is pretty much unimportant to fix this deal. This however is not comparable to the Brazilian, UAE and of course the Indian deal, where Dassault is the key, no matter how much good will comes from the French government.
Egypt gives the French Government not only the possibility to save some money in the current budget, by selling the Rafales to Egypt, but also to support Sagem and keep their AASM production line open with orders from Egypt, let alone the additional orders for DCNS with the Fremm. It's a big win for French Government, but just a little one for Dassault, it actually even creates a problem for Dassault, since now they might not be able to provide the 1 x squadron for India or Qatar till the end of 2017 as they planned earlier and depending on how the production line will change now.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@halloweene @sancho @Abingdonboy
Can you sirs say how reliable is info from French 24 news channel is..
I am pasting a tweet from them
FRANCE 24 English ‏@France24_en 39m39 minutes ago
VIDEO - FRANCE - Deal to be concluded between France and India on Rafale jets http://f24.my/1abUrIk



In the vid (youtube) i saw an interesting costing

How reliable is the reporting? So if the cost in report is true, am i correct to assume that 2012 F3 standard vs 2015 F3R standard is the reason for the price change? or just like every news media this is all smoked weed effect with no realistic connection?

 

[Agent_47]

Only positives French could take from Aero India 2015 was when Parrikar refused to comment on Rafale deal and said that Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) was still discussing it and he will comment only after they submit their reports, which was expected in next few weeks but again he insisted that negotiation has to be concluded by March end clearly setting a deadline. Earlier Parrikar had said that he is in favour of purchasing additional Su-30MKI if deal with French collapses.

 

[rockstarIN]

Stop the damn negotiations and lease some Gripen like some European countries till LCA-MK2 arrives.

 

[sancho]

How reliable is the reporting? So if the cost in report is true, am i correct to assume that 2012 F3 standard vs 2015 F3R standard is the reason for the price change? or just like every news media this is all smoked weed effect with no realistic connection?

No matter if 2012 or 2015, India evaluated and is buying the F3+ with some customizations. The figures that are spread in the media are mainly estimats, but sadly mix up figures of the original MRCA tender in the early 2000s, with estimates for the MMRCA now. 126 x Mirage 2000-5 could costed around $10 billion Dollar (there is also ofthen a confusion about currency), while the the minute the MMRCA started it was clear, that the costs will be much higher, just as the returns for India (more offsets and more ToT).

Stop the damn negotiations and lease some Gripen like some European countries till LCA-MK2 arrives.

No point in inducting a new type of fighter as a stop gap, especially when we induct LCA MK1 today too, which basically offers the same capabilities in the FOC version.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

You might want to check how often he, or other French government officials visited India since the election last year and what effect these visits had on the MMRCA deal. This is just political support, but French government has no leverage over Dassault, which was pretty evident in the UAE as well, where they were even pretty angry about Dassaults behaviour. This deal is stuck on Dassault taking responsibility till the last fighter is delivered or not and that is only up to Dassault to decide. If they say no, it's up to the Indian government to reject it or not and that's all that we are talking about now.

That is unlikely. Their earlier visits could have ANY purpose. It could be anything to do from Climate change to Political support for Ukrain.

This visit on the eve on PM visit to France and during Aero India would have a more specific agenda which could be related to Rafale purchase.

The sale is strategic for france as well and if it goes through will strengthen Indo French ties, not to mention a signification boost to their employment and job security to its citizens and Billions of $.

IT is more likely that Dasasault has leverage over the French govt. than the other way around. That is why MNC's give politician funding. So that politicians can utilize French banks and public money to finance Dassault sale.

 

[sancho]

BAE Systems flying high after £72m boost

worth £72m to BAE Systems in Lancashire, it has been revealed.
That will be the company’s share of a £165m contract to deliver further enhancements to the aircraft which has been signed in Abu Dhabi...

...Martin Taylor, Combat Air Managing Director for BAE Systems, said: “By any measure, the number of capability enhancements put in place for Typhoon in the past 12 months has been phenomenal, with Meteor, Storm Shadow, Captor E-scan radar and now Brimstone.

“The Phase 3 Enhancements Package (P3E) represents another exciting chapter in the development journey for Typhoon.”...

...P3E will see the aircraft receive upgrades including improvements to the maintenance and mission systems.

The announcement follows a successful feasibility study and a trial installation commissioned by the Ministry of Defence and carried out by BAE Systems last year.

This latest upgrade, with the integration of the Brimstone 2, opens up the air-to-surface capability of the aircraft even further to cope with a wide variety of targets, including fast moving vehicles.

BAE Systems flying high after £72m boost - Lancashire Evening Post

 

[Hindustani78]

The French Defence Minister, Mr. Jean Yves Le Drian calling the Union Minister for Defence, Shri Manohar Parrikar, in New Delhi on February 24, 2015.

The French Defence Minister, Mr. Jean Yves Le Drian and the Union Minister for Defence, Shri Manohar Parrikar at a delegation level talks, in New Delhi on February 24, 2015.

 

[SpArK]

Two Rafale, from French Navy, and two F/A-18 Hornet, from US Navy, in formation over sea.

 

[Screambowl]

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Livefist @livefist · 55m55 minutes ago
Sources: Crucial issue of liability for 108 aircraft, choice: joint liability with HAL or Dassault gets supervisory access to HAL line.
Livefist @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Sources: Asked if a conclusion was likely before PM Modi's Paris visit in April, Indian side reiterated March final decision window.
Livefist @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
Sources: French Defence Minister was assured that due process was being followed, negotiations committee report would be final word. 2/3
Livefist @livefist · 2h2 hours ago
MoD sources: French Defence Minister delegation informed that a decision on Rafale will be taken by end of March at the latest. #MMRCA 1/3
Livefist @livefist · 3h3 hours ago
Fine little Rafale vs Flanker dogfight playing out in the Indian press. Be sure it'll get more intense. Everyone primed.
Livefist @livefist · 6h6 hours ago
Talks between Indian & French defence min 'positive', my sources tell me. Awaiting specifics. All involved justifiably tight-lipped. #MMRCA


NDTV
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.

The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.



Good news. So i guess by April 2015 PM Modi will announce Deal Completion with Rafale and Contract signing plus initial amount transfer by June 2015. Rafale may be finally coming to India.......

 

[Bhuvan93]

Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call

New Delhi: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.

The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.

Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.

The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.

HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.

Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.

The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.

Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.

India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.


NDTV report.

Things looking up? Now for the report from the CNC...Oooops, didn't see the post above.

 

[topgun047]

This is the latest statement by RM in the parliament, about one month back...
http://www.janes.com/article/47533/indi ... fale-talks

"The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force's needs," Parrikar said, adding that at INR3.58 billion (USD59.66 million) each, the unit cost of the Su-30MKIs being licence-built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was less than half that of a Rafale.

Dassault can either accept India's position or they can walk away from the deal.
MoD has other options in mind if this does not go through.

Having said that, I hope the deal is signed soon and India gets its way.
The latest news about joint liability and physical inspection by Dassault, not to mention the counter guarantee given by HAL about following standard process is reasonably positive.
I posted something along the same lines a few days back.

Yes Russia and France have both used this trick before to escape iron clad ToT written in the contract.

They cited lack of maturity of Indian industry,that did not have the capability perform the processes correctly, due to lack of relevant infrastructure and insisted India either import certain parts which they initially agreed will be manufactured in India or pay extra money to buy the equipment/technology needed to manufacture those parts.
Its nothing short of blackmail.

This time MoD has wisened up to such tricks.

IMO best compromise is to assess each delay thoroughly
If HAL is found to be in violation of the practices prescribed by OEM then it should be liable.
If Dassault is found to be holding up on the transfer of equipment or processes then it should be liable.

Which brings us to the question who gets to decide which entity is responsible for delay ?
I think that is the sticking point in negotiations.