SpArK
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They also caught up in ToI troll.
I saved myself by deleting that thread.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]
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I saved myself by deleting that thread.
PARIKRAMA
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Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales
Wednesday, February 25, 2015
The Indian government is understood to have made it clear that it is no longer a question of whether Dassault Aviation will underwrite the 108 Rafales that HAL proposes to license-build in Bengaluru (a top MoD official indicated to Livefist that theRFP was explicit about this), but a question of how it will do so. Yesterday's hour-long deliberations at the MoD involved discussions on possible options. In very limited conversations with all sides, the following threads become apparent:
LIVEFIST: Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales
Wednesday, February 25, 2015
The Indian government is understood to have made it clear that it is no longer a question of whether Dassault Aviation will underwrite the 108 Rafales that HAL proposes to license-build in Bengaluru (a top MoD official indicated to Livefist that theRFP was explicit about this), but a question of how it will do so. Yesterday's hour-long deliberations at the MoD involved discussions on possible options. In very limited conversations with all sides, the following threads become apparent:
- Dassault and HAL will need to hammer down licensee/licensor modalities that will pave the way for a possibly complex matrix of agreements on the central issue of liability. It's clear now. It is this set of agreements that will provide a solution to the guarantee issue. The question is how long it would take to do this.
- Second, the extent of inspection and post-manufacture testing of equipment at HAL that would be the minimum required for Dassault to underwrite HAL-built jets.
- Whether there are any financial implications to additional understandings between HAL and Dassault for the process of underwriting jets produced on the former's production line in Bengaluru. Also, financial implications of the transfer of liability as a result of any additional agreements between HAL and Dassault.
- Both sides appear committed to finding a solution before Prime Minister Modi's visit to Paris in April, but is that a realistic time-frame? Sources suggest HAL and Dassault have already held extensive discussions on the liability issue and should be in a position to move quickly.
LIVEFIST: Now Only A Question Of How Dassault Underwrites HAL-built Rafales
cloud_9
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Abingdonboy
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Seriously, wtf? That there is just 0 basis for this and it got to print shows how inept and untrustworthy the Indian media is.
Abingdonboy
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Anyone questioning whether the MMRCA is just about the plane needs to read:
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
The Rafale deal is going to bring about a step change in the Indian aviation industry by importing the best practices from one of the world's leading manufacturers. Clearly the MKI's ToT has still not brought India in line with international standards so those proposing an additional LCA/MKI order as an adequate substitute for the Rafale need to think again. It's really quite sad how backwards HAL is in a lot of areas but for sure this deal is a game changer and hopefully it will provide lasting results for the entire aviation sector in India and all subsequent home-grown projects will benefit immensely.
IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THE PLANE.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
The Rafale deal is going to bring about a step change in the Indian aviation industry by importing the best practices from one of the world's leading manufacturers. Clearly the MKI's ToT has still not brought India in line with international standards so those proposing an additional LCA/MKI order as an adequate substitute for the Rafale need to think again. It's really quite sad how backwards HAL is in a lot of areas but for sure this deal is a game changer and hopefully it will provide lasting results for the entire aviation sector in India and all subsequent home-grown projects will benefit immensely.
IT WAS ALWAYS ABOUT MORE THAN JUST THE PLANE.
PARIKRAMA
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NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal
NEW DELHI: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi.
Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it's unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.
The plan is for France to supply 18 fully-made fighter jets to India, with the other 108 being produced by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautica Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. There is an option for India to acquire 63 more Rafale jets.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia's largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL "is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don't want others to stand guarantee for our product." This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.
The Dassault Rafale was shortlisted by the Indian Air Force as its fighter of choice in a fly-off involving some of the world's leading fighters in 2011. For years, the Air Force has made it clear, that the induction of the Rafale is imperative to ensure that its dwindling fleet strength is replenished with modern aircraft to counter the rapidly modernising Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces.
NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All reports on rafale for today a comprehensive update, i like the way all diversified views are thrown in.. lol...
_______________________________________________________________________
Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)
Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet
PARIS --- Indian media today offered conflicting reports after the French and Indian defense ministers met in New Delhi yesterday to resolve stalled negotiations over India’s long-delayed deal to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.
The reports ranged from the non-committal (No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal) to the affirmative (India inks a deal for supply of 24 Rafale aircraft), but the most plausible and most informative report was published by NDTV, and is reproduced here:
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
(Source: NDTV.com; Published February 25, 2015 - 00:32 IST
NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.
The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.
Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.
The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.
HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.
Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.
The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.
Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.
India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
(ends)
Indian Press Reports Offer No Clarity on Rafale Deal
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)
PARIS --- Below is a selection of excerpts from the Indian media reports on the Rafale negotiations after visiting French defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian met with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar.
Originally reported as scheduled to last 90 minutes, the meeting in fact lasted just half that time, but little guidance was offered by officials on what the meeting achieved – or didn’t – other than the NDTV article above.
Here is our selection, with the latest first:
India Inks A Deal for Supply of 24 Rafale Aircraft
(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- 10.10 AM IST
KOLKATA --- According to sources in the Ministry of Defence, India has inked a deal for the supply of 24 Rafale aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF). If this is correct, it is clear that India is testing waters, so far as a full-fledged tie-up with Dassault is concerned.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-24-Rafale-aircrafts/articleshow/46364875.cms
No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal
(Source: The Asian Age; published Feb 25, 2015 – 06:42 a.m.
NEW DELHI --- India and France continued discussions on Tuesday on the proposed multi-billion dollar 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, but it was unclear whether any firm understanding had been reached to clear the roadblocks in contract negotiations.
No clarity yet on Rafale deal | The Asian Age
India, France Once Again Try to Clear Hurdles In Path of Rafale Deal
(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- 06.30 AM IST
NEW DELHI --- India and France are trying to salvage the stalled $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, with defence minister Manohar Parrikar once again holding talks with his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Tuesday.
"The two sides discussed the proposed MMRCA project as well as reviewed the ongoing ones for upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 jets (Rs 17,547 crore) and construction of six Scorpene submarines (Rs 23,562 crore) at Mazagon Docks," said an official.
India, France once again try to clear hurdles in path of Rafale deal - The Times of India
Deadlock Over Rafale Persists
(Source: The Hindu; published February 25, 2015 -- 00:44 IST
NEW DELHI --- Visiting French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian held talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar here on Tuesday in a bid to break the deadlock over negotiations for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft worth over $20 billion.
Though specific details were not forthcoming, Defence Ministry officials indicated that the issue came up for discussion and both sides decided to continue negotiations.
Deadlock over Rafale persists - The Hindu
French Defence Minister Meets Manohar Parrikar to Push Rafale Deal
(Source: Press Trust of India; published Feb 24, 2015 -- 09.24PM IST
NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian today held talks here with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar to salvage the multi-billion Rafale contract even as a deadlock continues to hold up the deal.
As the two ministers met, the Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) is understood to have submitted its report to the Ministry of Defence.
Le Drian met with Parrikar for 45 minutes at his South Block office here during which the French Minister took up the issue of the Rafale deal.
The Ministry of Defence as well as the French officials remained tight-lipped over what transpired at the meeting. "This (visit) was a serious attempt to thrash out the issues that continue to dog the deal," official sources said even as they refused to share any more information.
French defence minister meets Manohar Parrikar to push Rafale deal - The Economic Times
NEW DELHI: The 12 billion dollar discussions centred on whether India will buy 126 Rafale fighter jets from France have made some progress, sources said today, a day after Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian in Delhi.
Major kinks remain in need of ironing, but are unlikely to be deal-breakers, said sources involved in the talks, though they cautioned that it's unlikely that the deal will be signed before Prime Minister Narendra Modi travels to Paris in April. However, by that time, some officials who are part of the negotiating process are hopeful that a statement of intent can be agreed upon by both the Indian and French governments for the contract that has been stalled for nearly three years.
The plan is for France to supply 18 fully-made fighter jets to India, with the other 108 being produced by the state-run Hindustan Aeronautica Limited (HAL) in Bangalore. There is an option for India to acquire 63 more Rafale jets.
Dassault Aviation, the French manufacturer, has concerns about the carbon-fibre composite material that would be used by HAL to form the skin of the Rafale fighter. Though HAL prides itself in having mastered the use of these composites (which are also used on the indigenous Tejas fighter plane), HAL uses a manual technique. Dassault, on the other hand, uses an automated and much quicker process to manufacture super-critical carbon-fibre composite structures such as the wings of the Rafale. HAL and Dassault will now need to arrive at a consensus on how best to speedily develop carbo-composites to ensure that the time-frame for the manufacture of Rafale fighters is met. A slower process by HAL could mean that Dassault's delivery deadlines for the Rafale will not be met.
French negotiators have indicated that that while they are obliged to train Indian engineers on the assembly of key components of the Rafale fighter, they need specific assurances to ensure that the engineers they train remain deployed and committed to the manufacture of the Rafale, again, to ensure that the jets are manufactured and delivered on time to the Indian Air Force.
The Rafale's primary sensor, the RBE-2 Airborne Electronically Scanned Array, is manufactured in state-of-the-art laboratories in France to exceptionally rigid production and quality standards. HAL's avionics labs, which presently work on radars for the Air Force's Sukhoi 30 have different standards and technologies in place. French sources say HAL engineers will need a change in the work culture and the avionics labs in Bangalore will need upgrading to meet the French standards. This is, again, not seen as a deal breaker, but the French have flagged a concern that the modernization of HAL's technology could be a time-consuming process.
While the Ministry of Defence may be aware of HAL's limitations, the government is clear that these are issues that need to be negotiated between Rafale and HAL and that its primary concern is the eventual delivery and performance of the Rafale fighter according to its advertised design specifications. NDTV has learned that the first batch of Rafale fighters assembled in India would take approximately 44 months to be manufactured, though this time-frame is likely to be reduced as HAL gains in experience and systems are fine-tuned. The final, fully made-in-India examples of the jet would likely be constructed quicker.
Hindustan Aeronautics, for its part, is positive about its capabilities in manufacturing the Rafale fighter. At Aero India, Asia's largest air show, last week, the new HAL chairman Suvarna Raju told reporters that HAL "is the lead production agency for the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (ie the Rafale) which gives us [the rights] for manufacture and testing. We don't want others to stand guarantee for our product." This would be welcome news for Dassault as it seeks to close the Rafale deal, negotiations for which have continued for more than three years.
The Dassault Rafale was shortlisted by the Indian Air Force as its fighter of choice in a fly-off involving some of the world's leading fighters in 2011. For years, the Air Force has made it clear, that the induction of the Rafale is imperative to ensure that its dwindling fleet strength is replenished with modern aircraft to counter the rapidly modernising Chinese and Pakistani Air Forces.
NDTV.com Exclusive: The Sticking Points of India's $12 Billion Rafale Fighter Jet Deal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
All reports on rafale for today a comprehensive update, i like the way all diversified views are thrown in.. lol...
_______________________________________________________________________
Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)
Indian Media Offer Little Clarity on Rafale Deal After Ministers Meet
PARIS --- Indian media today offered conflicting reports after the French and Indian defense ministers met in New Delhi yesterday to resolve stalled negotiations over India’s long-delayed deal to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.
The reports ranged from the non-committal (No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal) to the affirmative (India inks a deal for supply of 24 Rafale aircraft), but the most plausible and most informative report was published by NDTV, and is reproduced here:
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
(Source: NDTV.com; Published February 25, 2015 - 00:32 IST
NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drain and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar appear to have sorted out one of the key issues holding up the estimated $15 billion deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. A final decision is expected to be taken before Prime Minister Narendra Modi before his visit to France in April.
The deal, billed by some as one of biggest defence procurement by any country in a long time, has been on hold for almost a year over the issue of producing the planes here.
Of the 126 jets, 18 are to be purchased ready-made from France. The rest are to be manufactured by the Bengaluru-based Defence Public Sector Unit Hindustan Aeronautics Limited as part of the government's initiative for defence manufacturing in India.
The French defence manufacturing giant Dassault was hesitant to guarantee the quality of the jets produced in India, since it does not control the process. More importantly, Dassault estimates that the jets can be produced faster, with fewer man hours, than calculated by HAL, which can keep the cost down.
HAL has countered that Indian labour isn't as productive as in France and also, the level of automation here is less.
Senior Defence Ministry Officials told NDTV the first issue - that of guaranteeing the quality of aircraft produced in India - has been settled. India has given Dassault the option of physically inspecting the jets and guaranteeing the quality. Alternatively, Dassault is free to take a counter-guarantee from HAL on the process and quality of inputs.
The second issue - the man hours and the cost -- is now between the two companies to sort out. It will be reflected in the report of the crucial Cost Negotiating Committee, which will be submitted to the ministry shortly.
Mr Parrikar recently said he would not want to comment on the progress of the deal since it could influence the report.
India had decided to buy the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft in 2012 over rival offers from the United States, Europe and Russia. The deal was initially worth $12 billion but is now estimated to have jumped to around $15 billion.
Rafale Deal on Track, PM Modi to Take Final Call
(ends)
Indian Press Reports Offer No Clarity on Rafale Deal
(Source: compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com; published Feb 25, 2015)
PARIS --- Below is a selection of excerpts from the Indian media reports on the Rafale negotiations after visiting French defense minister Jean-Yves Le Drian met with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar.
Originally reported as scheduled to last 90 minutes, the meeting in fact lasted just half that time, but little guidance was offered by officials on what the meeting achieved – or didn’t – other than the NDTV article above.
Here is our selection, with the latest first:
India Inks A Deal for Supply of 24 Rafale Aircraft
(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- 10.10 AM IST
KOLKATA --- According to sources in the Ministry of Defence, India has inked a deal for the supply of 24 Rafale aircraft to the Indian Air Force (IAF). If this is correct, it is clear that India is testing waters, so far as a full-fledged tie-up with Dassault is concerned.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-24-Rafale-aircrafts/articleshow/46364875.cms
No Clarity Yet On Rafale Deal
(Source: The Asian Age; published Feb 25, 2015 – 06:42 a.m.
NEW DELHI --- India and France continued discussions on Tuesday on the proposed multi-billion dollar 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, but it was unclear whether any firm understanding had been reached to clear the roadblocks in contract negotiations.
No clarity yet on Rafale deal | The Asian Age
India, France Once Again Try to Clear Hurdles In Path of Rafale Deal
(Source: Times of India; published Feb 25, 2015 -- 06.30 AM IST
NEW DELHI --- India and France are trying to salvage the stalled $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters, with defence minister Manohar Parrikar once again holding talks with his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian on Tuesday.
"The two sides discussed the proposed MMRCA project as well as reviewed the ongoing ones for upgrade of 51 Mirage-2000 jets (Rs 17,547 crore) and construction of six Scorpene submarines (Rs 23,562 crore) at Mazagon Docks," said an official.
India, France once again try to clear hurdles in path of Rafale deal - The Times of India
Deadlock Over Rafale Persists
(Source: The Hindu; published February 25, 2015 -- 00:44 IST
NEW DELHI --- Visiting French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian held talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar here on Tuesday in a bid to break the deadlock over negotiations for 126 Rafale fighter aircraft worth over $20 billion.
Though specific details were not forthcoming, Defence Ministry officials indicated that the issue came up for discussion and both sides decided to continue negotiations.
Deadlock over Rafale persists - The Hindu
French Defence Minister Meets Manohar Parrikar to Push Rafale Deal
(Source: Press Trust of India; published Feb 24, 2015 -- 09.24PM IST
NEW DELHI --- French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian today held talks here with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar to salvage the multi-billion Rafale contract even as a deadlock continues to hold up the deal.
As the two ministers met, the Cost Negotiating Committee (CNC) is understood to have submitted its report to the Ministry of Defence.
Le Drian met with Parrikar for 45 minutes at his South Block office here during which the French Minister took up the issue of the Rafale deal.
The Ministry of Defence as well as the French officials remained tight-lipped over what transpired at the meeting. "This (visit) was a serious attempt to thrash out the issues that continue to dog the deal," official sources said even as they refused to share any more information.
French defence minister meets Manohar Parrikar to push Rafale deal - The Economic Times
Archie
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I Think, that if Rafale deal is to be pursued, then first of all India must import atleast 2 Sqds directly from France
We know that HAL could take upto 10 years to deliver 108 Jets
So its better to induct 36-54 Rafale directly from France, so that we can retire crash prone Mig 27
We know that HAL could take upto 10 years to deliver 108 Jets
So its better to induct 36-54 Rafale directly from France, so that we can retire crash prone Mig 27
PARIKRAMA
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that was the original idea given by @sancho .. only thing he said it was more possible in case of EFT (lol). technically now since Egypt 24 and French own needs come in, the orders of India will be executed in two prong fashion. Surely first 18 needs to meet MMRCA condition which will be taken care. But since HAL produced ones needs to roll out by 44 months, even if we take directly from French say another 36-54 nos (besides 18 already), the timeline will be at least 48 months plus from the date of signing for this batch.
egodoc222
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i dont understand this obsession with tot...hal is simply not capable...with those old fcuktard engineers...cannot absorb the tech....their in hal like in any psu experience(how old you are) matters than how talented you are...
we are manufacturing engine for su30...sourcing all components domestically.
.why couldn't they use the knowledge frm in kaveri and tejas projects...
they didnt even modernize the assembly...for tejas even after eating so much money!!!
i think tot is overrated(considering hal capability) wasting so much money!!
buy similar no. off the shelf...we get them in time at lower price!!!
sancho
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Didn't we said that for a long time?
One thing on the article strikes me though, HAL is not suppose to produce the RBE 2 AESA radar, but BEL, so are they blaming HAL here for no reason? On the bright side, it tells a lot about the level of our composite know how, when we are able to replace modern European composites too, the only issue seems to be the manufacturing process and that's exactly where MMRCA is suppose to improve India, among other things. Not exactly, I showed that the EF is the fastest choice, IF we wanted to counter the squad number issue, because it is not limited to a single production line like the Rafale. Germany alone will get 25 x EF's T3A's till the end of 2017, which shows that we could have got 2 or even 3 squads of EF if we wanted. Rafale now with the Egypt deal in between, might be even delayed to mid 2018, till we get our first squad. That, still will be according to the tender rules (delivery 3 years after signature), but makes the difference in fast delivery pretty obvious. Adding more Rafale orders then from France doesn't get us much anymore, since that easily take till 2019/20 till we get them.
The sad thing is, that if things would had went "normal" after the selection of Rafale in 2012, we might had got the first squad even by 2016 and then additional orders from France were even likely. Now we can be happy if the deal finally gets trough.
In the meantime:
Saudi Typhoons Use Paveway IV Bombs on ISIS
Nice job by the Saudis and pretty interesting stuff coming from the EF's at Red Flag too, not to mention that the latest EF magazin once again hints on Captor E's use in SEAD.
Bang Galore
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If this is correct and Dassault agrees, it is clear that the events of the last few weeks have forced a rethink and the panic rush to India by the French DM makes it clear that the MoD is forcing the issue.
sancho
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Actually we still don't have proper infos on who said what. The NDTV and Livefist article basically talks about India giving Dassault the possibility to give the guarantees now, by getting closer to Dassaults demands on inspections, while making once again clear, that the performance guarantee is non negotiable. The last statement of the Dassault CEO however, stated the opposite and the French DM can't speak for Dassault, nor do we actually have a statement from him about the guarantees, unless I missed it. It all remains on Dassault again and if they are willing to accept it or not?
Still funny to see, how after so many years, nobody has actually a clue how much the deal actually will cost.
Bang Galore
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Ya, It's why I prefaced my remarks with "If this is correct". We will know where this deal is going before the April visit of Narendra Modi to Paris. Makes little sense to scrap the deal prior to that visit & leave a bad taste in the mouths of the french. However if it does not get signed by then & if we are still hearing of massive differences, the deal probably won't be going anywhere.
P.S. :After yesterday's article in ToI, I think it is safest to leave all news on this deal well alone. Too many people feeding too much rubbish that it has now become almost impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. You point out pretty much the same with the stated statements of both the chief of Dassault as well as one from the French MoD directly contradicting this bit of news.
Still funny to see, how after so many years, nobody has actually a clue how much the deal actually will cost.
Ya, almost like you can get any quote from $15 billion to $30 billion. Like it was small change.
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