Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[sancho]

State Of Play: Three Years Since India Chose Rafale

There are few things like defence procurement that make the passage of time seem nothing. So it shouldn't shake anyone up that its been three years today that the Indian government chose the Dassault Aviation Rafale in the final downselect of the medium multirole combat aircraft (M-MRCA) competition. The M-MRCA competition has acquired mythological status now. It has its own folklore, its own (sometimes apocryphal) anecdotes of the twists and turns. The years have almost completely transformed the programme and how it is perceived. The wisdom of years usually provides insight. The galling thing about the M-MRCA is that it has lost none of its capacity to enthral, mystify, perplex. I've already told you what currently stalls negotiations between India and, well, France. So, as we head into air show month and mark three years since the M-MRCA downselect, here's 5 developments that, in their own way, tell you where things are...:

LIVEFIST: State Of Play: Three Years Since India Chose Rafale

 

[sancho]

Apart from M777, what are the other things you are trying to look at in the near to medium term?

Ian King: There’s the Future Infantry Combat vehicle is a programme where it seems budgets have been placed. Then there’s the Tactical Communications Systems (TCS) programme and with Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL).

We haven’t given up on Combat aircraft [For Eurofighter Typhoon under MMRCA]. Our position is that we think we have given a competitive offer and we stand ready. We’ve proven that with an aircraft we can transfer technology, we can set up assembly [line], we can work with HAL...

BAE Systems enthused about 'Make in India', upbeat on M777 guns - The Hindu

 

[halloweene]

Ahem...

Indian Navy selects OTO Melara 127/64 LW gun - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@halloweene

ANY news about Rafale ; Did that French delegation come to India

 

[sancho]

Ahem...

Indian Navy selects OTO Melara 127/64 LW gun - IHS Jane's 360

You do realize that that's an own goal right?

The MoD also wanted the vendors to undertake production, quality control and timeline guarantees for the BHEL-produced naval guns but without providing the vendor with executive or supervisory authority over the public sector company.

The same rules and guarantees that Dassault is rejecting, with the difference, that BAE had rejected them right away and did not entered into the competition, while Dassault acceppted the rules of the RFP as well as the DPP and rejected them only after being selected as the L1.
The article also states, that Oto Merla has no issues with these regulations, because they have experience in licence productions with BHEL and BAE has the same with HAL trough the Jaguar and Hawk licence productions too and we know that they acceppted the liability damage clause in the Hawk production as well!

 

[halloweene]

@halloweene

ANY news about Rafale ; Did that French delegation come to India

Already went to india and back, will go again very soon.

while Dassault acceppted the rules of the RFP as well as the DPP and rejected them only after being selected as the L1.

BAE also competed for MMRCA. To my knowledge, there wasn't any such clause in RFP.

 

[sancho]

BAE also competed for MMRCA. To my knowledge, there wasn't any such clause in RFP.

Which only means, they accepted the terms in this case and so far there is no official statement that would show something else, only from Dassault.
Can't tell about the RFP, the DPP 2006 which is the base for the tender included Liability Damages and Performance Guarantees:

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@halloweene @sancho

I found this in an Indian magazine

Source Three Rafales Returning To Aero India, Good News In Store?
- SP’s Exculsive

The reality is, since at least mid-2013, negotiations have remained largely stalled over crucial issues that include: Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India.

With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India', the ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia. Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report.

Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities. A French delegation empowered to smoothen out negotiations is understood to be in the process of attempting to smoothen out issues that keep the deal from an early conclusion.

 

[sancho]

Saudi Arabia reportedly bought MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missiles for its Typhoon fighter aircraft

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and European missiles manufacturer MBDA have signed the first export contract of the Meteor active radar guided beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM), for an estimated amount of $1 bn, reports today French newspaper La Tribune.
The Meteor missiles will be fitted on the 24 Eurofighter Typhoon fighter aircraft already delivered to the Royal Saudi Air Force, according to La Tribune...

Saudi Arabia reportedly bought MBDA's Meteor air-to-air missiles for its Typhoon fighter aircraft

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene @DrSomnath999

A little bit of GOOD news

Everything is normal: France on Rafale deal | Business Line

 

[sancho]

A little bit of GOOD news

Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.

What this news means ; in simple terms is that there has been progress
on the contentious issues ; let it take some more time

At least we will get a good deal

 

[Otocal]

Actually nothing new, our point is clear, it's now on Dassault to comply or not. The French government is not the issue, it wasn't for the UAE either, but there as well, it's Dassault's negotiations issues that stalled the deal.

As per CVC rules L2 cannot be selected.

Half the MoD will land up in jail if negotiations forget procurement are restarted with EFT gmbh

 

[sancho]

As per CVC rules L2 cannot be selected.

Half the MoD will land up in jail if negotiations forget procurement are restarted with EFT gmbh

Only as long as negotiations with the L1 are running, if the L1 howver can't comply to the requirements of the tender, the MoD has to retender either by directly going to the L2 and start negotiations with them, or to start the whole tender again. The latter won't happen anymore, so if Rafale is out, the MoD surely will talk once again with the EF consortium and see what they can get or take the worst case scenario and stick to MKIs and LCAs, without technical or industrial advantages.

 

[Otocal]

Only as long as negotiations with the L1 are running, if the L1 howver can't comply to the requirements of the tender, the MoD has to retender either by directly going to the L2 and start negotiations with them, or to start the whole tender again. The latter won't happen anymore, so if Rafale is out, the MoD surely will talk once again with the EF consortium and see what they can get or take the worst case scenario and stick to MKIs and LCAs, without technical or industrial advantages.

MoD cannot go to L2 as per CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) rules.

Only way for EF consortium is for MMRCA to be scrapped and a govt. to govt deal for 126 Eurofighters. (Watch karan thapar-manohar parrikar interview) I don't see that happening. Impossible for IAF or GoI to justify buying an even more expensive and less technologically advanced mrca (no aesa) with a fraction of L1 availability.