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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Egypt brought 24 Rafale, support equipment,etc. , Missiles and 1 Frigate for 5.9 Million $.

If you remove the 600 million $ for 1 Frigate, then its 5.3 billion $ for 24 Rafale and its accessories.

Roughly 220 million $ per aircraft + accessories. Taking Parrikar's 70:30 Split ratio, we get the price of Egypt Rafale at 154 million $ per aircraft.

Indian deal could be 10-20 million less if we remove kickback and discount due to Govt. to govt. deal. Puts it at 130 million per Rafale. That is a safe bet.

I quoted 120 million $ due to Modi factor :D

That is the cost of Rafale produced by HAL. It was supposed to be exorbitant, hence the scraping of the deal.



Now you are on right track!! After the details are known you will agree that it is about 140million a piece without weapons suit.

Wait and watch because French know that the deal is dead and matter closed.
 
Not going to happen, since the 36 are specifically meant to be diverted from the French order, but that's not possible for the full requirement, nor is the French government able to give us the licence production, ToT or any offset deals, so you can't move around Dassault if you want a licence production or any things produced in India.But one thing is clear, the Indian Government seems to be fed up with Dassault and all the delays they caused.
The benefits of dealing with the government is mainly costs, since they get them at flyaway costs and can sell them at a lower price than Dassault would ask, since Dassault has to add development costs too. But as said, any order that we make via the French government, would be produced in France, which is against anything we worked since 2007 and would be insane!
Hey but DM clearly said that all further orders will be through govt to govt deal as you cant ride on 2 roads at the same time. He didn't specified any number though.
 
Now you are on right track!! After the details are known you will agree that it is about 140million a piece without weapons suit.

Wait and watch because French know that the deal is dead and matter closed.

That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year :P
 
That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year :P
Again, the data you quote are completely irrelevant.

What does these prices include ?

I can quote you a French Senate report indicating that a Rafale Air unitary cost is around $70Mn.
 
Its personal opinion and I find nothing to be proud of , i dont even hang out with many desi's.
And I will leave when I wish so.

Not Proud of ur heritage.........then what the fcuk u doing on Indian Defence??
There are plenty of chat room, go there.
Even my small cousins, which were born here also, will call u "ABCD". American Born Confused Desi. It sounds kiddish, but it definitely applies to u.
 
Hey but DM clearly said that all further orders will be through govt to govt deal as you cant ride on 2 roads at the same time. He didn't specified any number though.

Well, with this government anything is unclear. We have the DM saying one thing, the IAF chief refuting him, HAL officials bypassing him and saying things publically that undermines the MoDs negotiations with Dassault and now the PM on a totally different way too. But as I said, we need to see more details of the intended order, to see what else is possible, for additional orders. Worst case now could be a splitted order by the government, going for 36 + 36 (for example) via French government if the negotiations with Dassault fails and covering the rest of the 126 with LCA or MKIs. That still would give IAF the numbers, but without the highly needed industrial side of the MMRCA deal. It really couldn't be more messed up than it is today.

nitin gokhale @nitingokhale · Apr 10
If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!

What nonsese! IAF and MoD insisted for the last 3 years that HAL remains to be the prime Indian company as stated in the RFP. Dassault after trying to deviate from that, even agreed to it, so that's not the issue anymore. Just shows the confusion the Make in India PR slogan has created, because there is no clear policy behind and basically covers a wide range of possibilities.

P8I deal - offsets that needs to be diverted to India = "Make in India", even if the aircraft as such is produced in the US

TATA / Denel self propelled howitzer = "Make in India", since the foreign howitzer is meant to be produced in India under licence

F18SH airframe parts produced by HAL = "Make in India", since they are produced in India, even if not sold on the Indian market

So make in India, only means that anything must be produced in India, be it a nut or bolt, or a full aircraft, but it doesn't mean that any Make in India deal is equally good for India. 108 Rafales produced by Dassault, with some minor parts produced in India as part of the 30% offset requirement, wouldn't cover any critical techs or systems. But according to the original MMRCA tender, 108 fighters licence produced in India with 50% offset and ToT including radar and engine, would be a huge win for India! Lets hope that the Government still focus on getting the best for the Indian industry and not just a cheap deal.[/QUOTE]
 
Again, the data you quote are completely irrelevant.

What does these prices include ?

I can quote you a French Senate report indicating that a Rafale Air unitary cost is around $70Mn.

The price I quoted is for just the F-35 aircraft and that information is available on the net. :coffee:

You are free to quote the french senate report of 2015. Post the link, I will wait.

What nonsese! IAF and MoD insisted for the last 3 years that HAL remains to be the prime Indian company as stated in the RFP. Dassault after trying to deviate from that, even agreed to it, so that's not the issue anymore. Just shows the confusion the Make in India PR slogan has created, because there is no clear policy behind and basically covers a wide range of possibilities.

P8I deal - offsets that needs to be diverted to India = "Make in India", even if the aircraft as such is produced in the US

TATA / Denel self propelled howitzer = "Make in India", since the foreign howitzer is meant to be produced in India under licence

F18SH airframe parts produced by HAL = "Make in India", since they are produced in India, even if not sold on the Indian market

So make in India, only means that anything must be produced in India, be it a nut or bolt, or a full aircraft, but it doesn't mean that any Make in India deal is equally good for India. 108 Rafales produced by Dassault, with some minor parts produced in India as part of the 30% offset requirement, wouldn't cover any critical techs or systems. But according to the original MMRCA tender, 108 fighters licence produced in India with 50% offset and ToT including radar and engine, would be a huge win for India! Lets hope that the Government still focus on getting the best for the Indian industry and not just a cheap deal.

Total RUBBISH.

"Make in India" is totally different from OFFSET.

The rules of OFFSET is pretty clear, any deal more than 300 crores needs to have 30% invested back in India.

First learn the difference.
 
India to Sign Rafale Contract By June
(Source: Defense-Aerospace.com; published April 13, 2015)

Compiled by Defense-Aerospace.com

PARIS --- French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is to shortly travel to India to iron out the details of the direct sale of 36 Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force, with a view to signing the contract during the Paris air show in mid-June.

Negotiations will continue in parallel for the local production of at least 108 Rafale in India, although it can no longer be assumed that state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will be automatically involved.

Dassault had originally planned to team with India’s privately-owned Reliance group and, in the wake of the April 10 announcement of a direct purchase, HAL officials made remarkably lackadaisical statements to Indian media.

“We did not initiate any concrete step at the HAL for manufacturing the planes here”,one HAL official told the India Tribune, adding that “After all, there was never much clarity on whether the deal with Rafale would be finally signed.” The official also revealed that HAL had done remarkably little to prepare for Rafale production: “There was never any question of acquiring land or bring together a team for MMRCA”, he said.


Given that Egypt, which has just ordered 24 Rafales, and India are both in a hurry to receive their aircraft, France will turn over to them its next 49 delivery slots, and will resume its own deliveries after 2019. Dassault currently builds Rafales at a rate of 11 a year, and needs about three years to double it.

Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters in New Delhi on Saturday that "It may take two to two-and-a-half years to get the first plane……Fly-away means not tomorrow, it has to be designed as per India's need, plus there is a requirement of working out the price” which he also said would be about 4 billion euros.

The production bottleneck could tighten over those three years if, as implied April 12 by French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, talks with the United Arab Emirates -- which are progressing well, he said – lead to a third Rafale export contract this year.

This is the passage of the French-India joint communiqué issued on April 10, after visiting Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi met with French President François Hollande:

“14. Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for Multirole Combat Aircraft for Indian Air Force, Government of India would like to acquire [36] Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible.

“The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway
(Emphasis added—Ed.); the delivery would be in time-frame that would be compatible with the operational requirement of IAF; and that the aircraft and associated systems and weapons would be delivered on the same configuration as had been tested and approved by Indian Air Force, and with a longer maintenance responsibility by France.

As we noted on Friday, a direct purchase will resolve most of the bottlenecks that have blocked the MMRCA contract negotiations over the past three years, and which mostly focus on the price of the 108 Indian-made aircraft and on who would provide their contractual warranty.

The fundamental problem, however, is that by codifying and closely regulating as many aspects of defense procurement as it could, India’s previous government created a web of red tape so complex and so arcane that mutually-acceptable defense deals have become virtually impossible.

Another – and so far unsaid - factor is that HAL’s work-force is not yet capable of assembling aircraft as advanced as Rafale, and the Indian government appears to have realized that it was insisting on an expensive and time-consuming industrial fantasy that it would probably be unable to implement in the short term.

Finally, a direct purchase would elegantly sidestep thorny coproduction issues, give India fixed, firm prices guaranteed by the French government, and relieve the current pressure to conclude a license production agreement that suits neither side.

India to Sign Rafale Contract By June
 
Rafale, though important, not the only choice
New Delhi, April 13

India on Monday announced it has set out on a new path to meet the critical shortage of the Indian Air Force fighter jets. The purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets in a fly-away condition from Dassault Aviation of France, announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on April 10, will form an important choice but will not be the only choice.


Buying more of the Rafale or ‘making in India’ will depend upon negotiations of the two governments. New Delhi and Paris have announced a government-to-government deal for purchase of 36 of the twin-engine Rafale.

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today explained, to the media, how the deal will progress. The global tender to buy a medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) floated in 2007 to buy 126 planes had been shelved. “If this route (government-to-government) is followed, then it’s obvious, a car cannot travel on two different routes. In the tender process there were lot of issues and troubles. The tender has gone into a vortex.” The direct deal is working out to be less costly.

The Rafale was selected as lowest bidder in the tender but issues had cropped up as it did not want to stand guarantee for the 108 planes to be made by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and HAL’s high production costs.

On being asked if the government would be looking to get the previous target of 126 planes, Parikkar answered: “Not necessarily that will depend on government-to-government discussion. We may not go for full 126. We may decide a different number also.” This was the clear signal that India would be hedging its bets rather than look at Rafale alone. “I will not speculate or reveal any further,” Parrikar said when asked if New Delhi would be looking at other planes of the same kind and capability.

“Even the target of 126 was financially a steep climb,” Parrikar said in note of realism. Each Rafale costs about Rs 760-775 crore. On being asked if Rafale will be made in India, the Defence Minister said, “I have not excluded the Make in India, but that will depend on how we negotiate.” Under the tender 18 planes were to be in a fly-away condition, the next 18 were to be in the form of completely knocked down kits.

The future path
Parrikar was clear that future shortage of fighter jets that will occur due to phasing out of the MiG 21 and MiG 27 will be met by a mix and match of the Rafale, the Russian built Sukhoi-30 MKI and indigenous Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas and hinge upon life extension to the MiG-21.

The IAF needs 42 combat squadrons (18 planes in each) to tackle a simultaneous two-front war with Pakistan and China.

“The LCA will fill in the gaps in six months. Another 72 Sukhoi-30 MKI are on order (in addition to the existing fleet of 198),” he said. In two to three years some eight new squadrons will join, two of the LCA, two of the Rafale and four of the Sukhoi. In the next 4-5 years we can add six or seven squadrons of the LCA, which is better than the MiG 21.

India, he said, was not scaling down from the projection of 42 squadrons. “We can achieve that target over the next 8-10 years. When 42 squadrons were projected the missile technology was low and now we are doing very well in missile technology.”

Rafale, though important, not the only choice
 
Any future Rafale jet purchases will be govt-to-govt: Parrikar | Zee News
Last Updated: Monday, April 13, 2015 - 20:40


New Delhi: India on Monday said all future negotiations for purchase of French Rafale fighters would be through government to government route, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today, discarding direct talks with manufacturers.


The disclosure came two days after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender.

While initially the tender was valued at about USD 10 billion for 126 aircraft, the current price is estimated to be over USD 20 billion, over which India had serious reservations.

Noting that negotiations had entered into a "loop" or a "vortex" with no solution in sight, Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale aircraft has to be bought and whether it will be under 'Make in India' programme.

The Minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether the requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.

"Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route," he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready-to- fly condition.

He said what has to be done about the rest would de decided after discussions between the two governments.

Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process

for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.

"But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were a lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government," he said briefing reporters at South Block.


Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, "All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly-away condition which means they will be manufactured by the company in France and supplied in fly away conditions".


Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.

Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues - pricing and Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.
 
That is not great because US AF brought F-35 lightning II for 150 million $ per aircraft, this year :P

ITS NOT JUST ABOUT THE INITIAL COST OF THE FIGHTER BUT ABOUT ITS............ LIFE-CYCLE COST.
 

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