Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]
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Corsair
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Unless you have precise data on what is included or not in the contract, I'd suggest you not to make such unrelevant comments..
uparyupari
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LOL. Who is sancho to confirm anything ? he is just a kid studying in germany.
Everything is pure speculation at this point.
Bhoot Pishach
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Apart from Commitment for Long term Support from France for these 36, nothing is clear.
Egypt are getting their 24 in 5+Billion, will India get 36 in less then 5Billion??
Let the full picture emerge, this is the price benchmark and most probably will not go down.
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Rafale deal an unmitigated disaster – Bharat Karnad of CPR
India has ordered 36 “ready-to-fly” French-madeRafale fighter jets to modernise the country’s ageing warplane fleet. But Bharat Karnad, a research professor at the Centre for Policy Research (CPR) in New Delhi, said the deal with French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is a disaster that will not meet the immediate needs of India’s air force.
On April 13, Karnad joined the Trading India Forum, a live webchat hosted by Thomson Reuters where members from the financial industry interact. He shared his views on the Rafale jet deal, its implications for India and whether the Russian-made Su-30MKI would have been a better choice.
Here are edited excerpts from Karnad’s responses in the chatroom. Any opinions expressed here are those of Karnad and not of Thomson Reuters.
Q: Your view on the Rafale dealA: My view, encapsulated in my blog www.bharatkarnad.com on April 10, is that it’s an unmitigated disaster at many levels.
Q: I remember reading somewhere that if the Indian order doesn’t materialize, then the company will shut down.
A: Yes, because Dassault was down to producing 11 Rafales per year; now it can carry on for another 10 years. It is actually oxygen for the French aerospace industry.
Q: If not Rafale, what other option did the air force have?A: If there was a critical requirement to make up fighter squadrons quickly, then there is no better way than putting an indent with the Russians for more Su-30MKIs. Parrikar actually favoured that as an alternative to Rafale.
Q: Is this because the aircraft are of very poor quality?
A: No, Rafale are not poor quality, but India will have to pay an arm and a leg for it at over $200 million per unit cost. While the more advanced Su-30, as Parrikar noted, with full ordnance load comes in at less than half the price.
Q: Why do you call the deal an “unmitigated disaster”?
A: Unmitigated disaster because
- it won’t solve IAF‘s immediate needs, which induction of more Su-30s can do. The first Rafales will come in by 2017 at the earliest, more likely 2018
- it torpedoes the entire TOT (transfer of technology) and “Make In India” angle, and
- while rescuing the French combat aircraft industry, deprives the Indian Tejas Mk2 and the advanced medium combat aircraft projects of much needed funding to get going.
Q: So has the government been advised wrongly?
A: Given the enormous price differential between the Rafale and Su-30 options, the decision makes no sense, unless it is that the government of India has bought into the IAF’s argument that it needs to diversify its sources of hardware. All this means that the Indian Air Force and the country are in hock to many more countries, and can be manipulated by them in the foreign policy arena and in crises. I am quite sure the PM was not offered the alternative to consider by the MEA-IAF-NSA combine.
Q: The Su-30MKI has been in service since the late 90s. If it can fill the requirement, then what was the need for the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender in the first place?
A: You tell me what the need is. In fact, as I have argued, the entire concept of a medium, light, heavy combat aircraft categories are unique to IAF and entirely spurious.
Q: But if you keep buying Russian hardware, you risk being manipulated by them?A: The reality is this – Russia post-Crimea is getting into deep financial waters and India holds the whip hand in its reins with Moscow, which is not the case with our reins with France.
Q: Is there a quid pro quo in the form of a nuclear deal? The PMO has been tom-tomming the L&T-Areva deal.
A: The N-deal for Areva, which is equally questionable is on a separate track; not connected with the MMRCA issue.
Q: What, in your opinion, should be the requirement of the IAF?
A: IAF needs can be fully met with a mix in the medium-term future – next 15-20 years – of Su-30s for strike and air superiority, MiG-29Ms (latest variety) for long-range air defence, and LCA Tejas Mk-Is and IIs for short-range air defence.
Q: What should the government’s priorities be in defence expenditure? Did the first full budget by Finance Minister Arun Jaitley address those issues?
A: No, Jaitley’s budget did not address the MOD (Ministry of Defence) priorities, but that’s Parrikar’s job. The top priorities should be to beef up capabilities against China, especially three – not one – offensive ops mountain corps, and getting another Akula-II SSN from Russia.
Q: In your view, does the IAF not need a medium multi-role combat aircraft?
A: Not, MMRCA is a dubious need expressly favoured by the IAF to go Western, rather than making fiscal sense or serve the national interest.
Q: But the Tejas was under development for more than 25 years and is still nowhere near the final product.
A: Time delays and cost escalation is par for the course for all new combat aircraft programmes. Consider the US F-35 costing a trillion dollars, over 20 years, nearly 8-10 years overdue and operationally still an absolute disaster. And this is with an established defence industry, mind you.
Q: Can you list India’s top three threats in terms of countries?A: China, China and China.
Q: That big a threat?A: Yes, because unless India is able to achieve at least notional parity in conventional and nuclear military terms with China, the coercive pressure from that end will be virtually irresistible in the years to come.
Q: Can India still go ahead with buying Typhoon?A: No, Typhoon has its own developmental and operational problems and its serviceability in the German Luftwaffe is some 39 percent.
Q: It’s 36 ready-made Rafales and 90 to be produced in India with transfer of technology, right?A: The question is TOT and licence manufacture at what price? After all, the price negotiation committee got stuck in talks with Dassault over precisely the French-sourced and HAL-built Rafales.
Q: How are Indian firms positioned to take Modi’s defence push? Do L&T, Pipavav have the technological capabilities?
A: If HAL is disfavoured as per Modi’s remarks, then Indian private corporations will have to pick up the slack. But they do not have the physical facilities for production like HAL does, and it will cost $5-8 billion to put up a production line. Can L&T or anybody else invest so much without the guarantee of future custom beyond Rafale?
Q: Russia supplies similar hardware to China as well as India. Doesn’t broadening the military partnership make sense for India?A: No, because Russia is apprehensive of China because of its security problems in Siberia, border, etc. with China, always sells less than the cutting-edge stuff to PLAAF (The People’s Liberation Army Air Force). Moscow is more open about tech when dealing with India.
Q: Wasn’t the deal finalized by the previous government?
A: No, there was no deal finalized with the UPA government, only a commitment to negotiate an appropriate contract to meet IAF’s so-called MMRCA needs. Nothing else. It was completely the BJP government’s call.
Q: Do you think securing French aviation from the brink of disaster is a masterstroke in securing the final vote at the UNSC?
A: If you know the history of France, you’d not have asked this question. No, France will not push India’s candidature to the UNSC for love or money, other than as a generalized push by US-UK-France, and this won’t happen, because it is more profitable to keep New Delhi stringing along.
India has ordered 36 “ready-to-fly” French-madeRafale fighter jets to modernise the country’s ageing warplane fleet. But Bharat Karnad, a research professor at the Centre for Policy Research (CPR) in New Delhi, said the deal with French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is a disaster that will not meet the immediate needs of India’s air force.
On April 13, Karnad joined the Trading India Forum, a live webchat hosted by Thomson Reuters where members from the financial industry interact. He shared his views on the Rafale jet deal, its implications for India and whether the Russian-made Su-30MKI would have been a better choice.
Here are edited excerpts from Karnad’s responses in the chatroom. Any opinions expressed here are those of Karnad and not of Thomson Reuters.
Q: Your view on the Rafale dealA: My view, encapsulated in my blog www.bharatkarnad.com on April 10, is that it’s an unmitigated disaster at many levels.
Q: I remember reading somewhere that if the Indian order doesn’t materialize, then the company will shut down.
A: Yes, because Dassault was down to producing 11 Rafales per year; now it can carry on for another 10 years. It is actually oxygen for the French aerospace industry.
Q: If not Rafale, what other option did the air force have?A: If there was a critical requirement to make up fighter squadrons quickly, then there is no better way than putting an indent with the Russians for more Su-30MKIs. Parrikar actually favoured that as an alternative to Rafale.
Q: Is this because the aircraft are of very poor quality?
A: No, Rafale are not poor quality, but India will have to pay an arm and a leg for it at over $200 million per unit cost. While the more advanced Su-30, as Parrikar noted, with full ordnance load comes in at less than half the price.
Q: Why do you call the deal an “unmitigated disaster”?
A: Unmitigated disaster because
- it won’t solve IAF‘s immediate needs, which induction of more Su-30s can do. The first Rafales will come in by 2017 at the earliest, more likely 2018
- it torpedoes the entire TOT (transfer of technology) and “Make In India” angle, and
- while rescuing the French combat aircraft industry, deprives the Indian Tejas Mk2 and the advanced medium combat aircraft projects of much needed funding to get going.
Q: So has the government been advised wrongly?
A: Given the enormous price differential between the Rafale and Su-30 options, the decision makes no sense, unless it is that the government of India has bought into the IAF’s argument that it needs to diversify its sources of hardware. All this means that the Indian Air Force and the country are in hock to many more countries, and can be manipulated by them in the foreign policy arena and in crises. I am quite sure the PM was not offered the alternative to consider by the MEA-IAF-NSA combine.
Q: The Su-30MKI has been in service since the late 90s. If it can fill the requirement, then what was the need for the MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) tender in the first place?
A: You tell me what the need is. In fact, as I have argued, the entire concept of a medium, light, heavy combat aircraft categories are unique to IAF and entirely spurious.
Q: But if you keep buying Russian hardware, you risk being manipulated by them?A: The reality is this – Russia post-Crimea is getting into deep financial waters and India holds the whip hand in its reins with Moscow, which is not the case with our reins with France.
Q: Is there a quid pro quo in the form of a nuclear deal? The PMO has been tom-tomming the L&T-Areva deal.
A: The N-deal for Areva, which is equally questionable is on a separate track; not connected with the MMRCA issue.
Q: What, in your opinion, should be the requirement of the IAF?
A: IAF needs can be fully met with a mix in the medium-term future – next 15-20 years – of Su-30s for strike and air superiority, MiG-29Ms (latest variety) for long-range air defence, and LCA Tejas Mk-Is and IIs for short-range air defence.
Q: What should the government’s priorities be in defence expenditure? Did the first full budget by Finance Minister Arun Jaitley address those issues?
A: No, Jaitley’s budget did not address the MOD (Ministry of Defence) priorities, but that’s Parrikar’s job. The top priorities should be to beef up capabilities against China, especially three – not one – offensive ops mountain corps, and getting another Akula-II SSN from Russia.
Q: In your view, does the IAF not need a medium multi-role combat aircraft?
A: Not, MMRCA is a dubious need expressly favoured by the IAF to go Western, rather than making fiscal sense or serve the national interest.
Q: But the Tejas was under development for more than 25 years and is still nowhere near the final product.
A: Time delays and cost escalation is par for the course for all new combat aircraft programmes. Consider the US F-35 costing a trillion dollars, over 20 years, nearly 8-10 years overdue and operationally still an absolute disaster. And this is with an established defence industry, mind you.
Q: Can you list India’s top three threats in terms of countries?A: China, China and China.
Q: That big a threat?A: Yes, because unless India is able to achieve at least notional parity in conventional and nuclear military terms with China, the coercive pressure from that end will be virtually irresistible in the years to come.
Q: Can India still go ahead with buying Typhoon?A: No, Typhoon has its own developmental and operational problems and its serviceability in the German Luftwaffe is some 39 percent.
Q: It’s 36 ready-made Rafales and 90 to be produced in India with transfer of technology, right?A: The question is TOT and licence manufacture at what price? After all, the price negotiation committee got stuck in talks with Dassault over precisely the French-sourced and HAL-built Rafales.
Q: How are Indian firms positioned to take Modi’s defence push? Do L&T, Pipavav have the technological capabilities?
A: If HAL is disfavoured as per Modi’s remarks, then Indian private corporations will have to pick up the slack. But they do not have the physical facilities for production like HAL does, and it will cost $5-8 billion to put up a production line. Can L&T or anybody else invest so much without the guarantee of future custom beyond Rafale?
Q: Russia supplies similar hardware to China as well as India. Doesn’t broadening the military partnership make sense for India?A: No, because Russia is apprehensive of China because of its security problems in Siberia, border, etc. with China, always sells less than the cutting-edge stuff to PLAAF (The People’s Liberation Army Air Force). Moscow is more open about tech when dealing with India.
Q: Wasn’t the deal finalized by the previous government?
A: No, there was no deal finalized with the UPA government, only a commitment to negotiate an appropriate contract to meet IAF’s so-called MMRCA needs. Nothing else. It was completely the BJP government’s call.
Q: Do you think securing French aviation from the brink of disaster is a masterstroke in securing the final vote at the UNSC?
A: If you know the history of France, you’d not have asked this question. No, France will not push India’s candidature to the UNSC for love or money, other than as a generalized push by US-UK-France, and this won’t happen, because it is more profitable to keep New Delhi stringing along.
sancho
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Not going to happen, since the 36 are specifically meant to be diverted from the French order, but that's not possible for the full requirement, nor is the French government able to give us the licence production, ToT or any offset deals, so you can't move around Dassault if you want a licence production or any things produced in India.But one thing is clear, the Indian Government seems to be fed up with Dassault and all the delays they caused.
The benefits of dealing with the government is mainly costs, since they get them at flyaway costs and can sell them at a lower price than Dassault would ask, since Dassault has to add development costs too. But as said, any order that we make via the French government, would be produced in France, which is against anything we worked since 2007 and would be insane!
Corsair
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Egypt also bought a FREMM-class frigate with the package, you know that, right ?
Bhoot Pishach
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Bang Galore
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Centre scraps $20 billion MMRCA deal for 126 Rafale jets for IAF, LCA Tejas to replace MiG-21
CNN-IBN@ibnlive
New Delhi: In a surprising decision which is likely to have a major impact on the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Centre has scrapped the $20 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal for purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets signed by the previous United Progressive Alliance government. Speaking to CNN-IBN, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar claimed that Rafale fighters cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.
Parrikar said that India's indigenous Light Combat aircraft Tejas will replace MiG 21 as both are almost of the same category while the Rafale is a much bigger jet with a bigger range and more weapons carrying capabilities. "We have not purchased any new aircraft of latest technology in the past 15 years. IAF desperately needs fourth generation aircraft, the fifth generation that we are working on will take 10-15 years," said Parrikar.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his recent visit to France negotiated with the government there to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on April 11, Modi announced that IAF would get 36 Rafale jets.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Rafale jets cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.
"I think it is a bold decision and I will give 100 out of 100 to the Prime Minister. Many people politically fail to take decision. But the need of the nation comes first. What Modiji has done is that he has got a deal for 36 aircraft. We will negotiate and will buy more. The ice has been broken," he said.
"We have 42 squadrons, we need 36-38 active squadrons. We are phasing out MiG-21. Rafale is not a replacement for MIG. It satisfies the upper end. IAF needs aircraft with capacity of 1000 kms radius. It is a strategic purchase. The earlier government should have taken decisions on government to government deals," added Parrikar.
While pointing out that IAF needs new fighters within a short time frame and so the government to government deal to buy 36 Rafale jets was finalised.
"We have not purchased all 36 aircraft. When there is a PM or President level deal, it is matter of principle clearance. We have promised to purchase 36 aircraft. The major reason for the deal is to induct it in the minimum time frame. It is a good deal," he said.
"Make in India part of the deal will be discussed between ministries. Rafale is a top end fighter and satisfies other criterion as well. The aircraft is expensive and hence we have to take steps. Rafale cannot replace MiG-21, Tejas can do that. We won't induct any low end aircraft. Tejas is a lighter aircraft, it has its limitations. It cannot loiter for hours. Its carrying capacity is only 10-12 tonnes whereas Rafale can carry 24 tonnes," he said.
On charges made by senior Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Subramanian Swamy that the Rafale deal is not in India's interest, the Defence Minister said that he will explain to his colleague the entire scenario and that Swamy's reaction was based on instant news.
But Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.
Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.
IAF had shortlisted the Rafale fighter under the MMRCA deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.
At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.
Under the deal, India was to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters were to be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France was stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which were to be built HAL. India wanted Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter had not agreed to.
CNN-IBN@ibnlive
New Delhi: In a surprising decision which is likely to have a major impact on the Indian Air Force (IAF), the Centre has scrapped the $20 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal for purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets signed by the previous United Progressive Alliance government. Speaking to CNN-IBN, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar claimed that Rafale fighters cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.
Parrikar said that India's indigenous Light Combat aircraft Tejas will replace MiG 21 as both are almost of the same category while the Rafale is a much bigger jet with a bigger range and more weapons carrying capabilities. "We have not purchased any new aircraft of latest technology in the past 15 years. IAF desperately needs fourth generation aircraft, the fifth generation that we are working on will take 10-15 years," said Parrikar.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi during his recent visit to France negotiated with the government there to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets in fly-away condition under a new deal. After meeting French President Francois Hollande in Paris on April 11, Modi announced that IAF would get 36 Rafale jets.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said Rafale jets cannot replace the ageing MiG-21 which will be phased out in the next 6-10 years.
"I think it is a bold decision and I will give 100 out of 100 to the Prime Minister. Many people politically fail to take decision. But the need of the nation comes first. What Modiji has done is that he has got a deal for 36 aircraft. We will negotiate and will buy more. The ice has been broken," he said.
"We have 42 squadrons, we need 36-38 active squadrons. We are phasing out MiG-21. Rafale is not a replacement for MIG. It satisfies the upper end. IAF needs aircraft with capacity of 1000 kms radius. It is a strategic purchase. The earlier government should have taken decisions on government to government deals," added Parrikar.
While pointing out that IAF needs new fighters within a short time frame and so the government to government deal to buy 36 Rafale jets was finalised.
"We have not purchased all 36 aircraft. When there is a PM or President level deal, it is matter of principle clearance. We have promised to purchase 36 aircraft. The major reason for the deal is to induct it in the minimum time frame. It is a good deal," he said.
"Make in India part of the deal will be discussed between ministries. Rafale is a top end fighter and satisfies other criterion as well. The aircraft is expensive and hence we have to take steps. Rafale cannot replace MiG-21, Tejas can do that. We won't induct any low end aircraft. Tejas is a lighter aircraft, it has its limitations. It cannot loiter for hours. Its carrying capacity is only 10-12 tonnes whereas Rafale can carry 24 tonnes," he said.
On charges made by senior Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Subramanian Swamy that the Rafale deal is not in India's interest, the Defence Minister said that he will explain to his colleague the entire scenario and that Swamy's reaction was based on instant news.
But Swamy termed the new Rafale fighter jet deal between India and France a case of arbitrariness. Swamy is yet to decide on what action to take over Modi government's decision to purchase 36 aircraft from France.
Swamy said, "I have not yet decided on whether to approach the court. I am waiting for papers on the new Rafael deal. It prima facie appears to be a case of arbitrariness." Swamy requested Modi not to go ahead with the Rafale deal, which was negotiated by the previous UPA government, and said the performance of the French jet "turned out to be worst of all the aircraft" in Libya and Egypt.
IAF had shortlisted the Rafale fighter under the MMRCA deal after a close competition which also saw Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen in the race. While Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, Mikoyan MiG-35 and Saab JAS 39 Gripen were eliminated very early, Dassault Rafale edged out the Eurofighter Typhoon in the final negotiation.
At present the IAf has just 34 fighter squadrons against the ideal 45 squadrons required to take on the threat from both Pakistan and China simultaneously. The ageing MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes are being phased out which will see the IAF strength depleting by at least eight more squadrons.
Under the deal, India was to get only 18 Rafale directly while the rest 108 fighters were to be manufactured by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. But the final deal between India and France was stuck over who would be responsible for the manufacturers' guarantee on 108 jets which were to be built HAL. India wanted Rafale maker Dassault Aviation to take full responsibility which the latter had not agreed to.
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New Delhi: Any future purchases of Rafale fighter jets will be through direct negotiations with the French government, said Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today, calling into question an ongoing commercial negotiation with Dassault Aviation for 126 aircraft.
India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced a plan to buy 36 ready-to-fly jets from Dassault through the government-to-government route to modernise an ageing fleet.
Defence Minister Parrikar said the PM's decision came after the commercial negotiation went into a "vortex," but stopped short of saying the government had scrapped the negotiation for a contract with Dassault, worth up to $20 billion.
On the weekend, Mr Parrikar had said that India will not receive its first Rafale fighter jet for up to two and a half years and tricky issues including pricing must still be worked out. While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal - estimated at about $4.25 billion - have yet to be worked out.
India and France have negotiated for Rafale fighters for three years. A 2012 agreement to buy 126 jets stalled over cost and a dispute over the assembly of 108 aircraft in India.
Half of India's fighters are due to retire by 2024. Military officials have warned that the air force's reliance on a disparate fleet of Russian-made MiG and French Mirage fighters, along with modern Russian Sukhoi Su-30s, has made it vulnerable.
The Rafale fighters are expected to replace some of the MiGs and Mirage jets.
India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday announced a plan to buy 36 ready-to-fly jets from Dassault through the government-to-government route to modernise an ageing fleet.
Defence Minister Parrikar said the PM's decision came after the commercial negotiation went into a "vortex," but stopped short of saying the government had scrapped the negotiation for a contract with Dassault, worth up to $20 billion.
On the weekend, Mr Parrikar had said that India will not receive its first Rafale fighter jet for up to two and a half years and tricky issues including pricing must still be worked out. While the order is meant to be delivered as soon as possible, terms and conditions of the deal - estimated at about $4.25 billion - have yet to be worked out.
India and France have negotiated for Rafale fighters for three years. A 2012 agreement to buy 126 jets stalled over cost and a dispute over the assembly of 108 aircraft in India.
Half of India's fighters are due to retire by 2024. Military officials have warned that the air force's reliance on a disparate fleet of Russian-made MiG and French Mirage fighters, along with modern Russian Sukhoi Su-30s, has made it vulnerable.
The Rafale fighters are expected to replace some of the MiGs and Mirage jets.
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Egypt brought 24 Rafale, support equipment,etc. , Missiles and 1 Frigate for 5.9 Million $.
If you remove the 600 million $ for 1 Frigate, then its 5.3 billion $ for 24 Rafale and its accessories.
Roughly 220 million $ per aircraft + accessories. Taking Parrikar's 70:30 Split ratio, we get the price of Egypt Rafale at 154 million $ per aircraft.
Indian deal could be 10-20 million less if we remove kickback and discount due to Govt. to govt. deal. Puts it at 130 million per Rafale. That is a safe bet.
I quoted 120 million $ due to Modi factor
That is the cost of Rafale produced by HAL. It was supposed to be exorbitant, hence the scraping of the deal.
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nitin gokhale @nitingokhale · Apr 10If Dassault can be persuaded to shift its assembly line to India (not under HAL), it would meet the Make in India requirements too!
nitin gokhale @nitingokhale · Apr 10Just a wild thought. Could it be that the entire Rafale assembly line relocates to India in coming years under the Make in India scheme?
nitin gokhale @nitingokhale · Apr 10The next steps on more Rafales is a matter of detail: sources. Being described as mix of meeting IAF's requirement and that of Make in India
nitin gokhale @nitingokhale · Apr 10Okay so I got it wrong on the numbers. 36 Rafale to be bought in ready to fly condition, announces PM. Price and further details awaited
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Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Parrikar
New Delhi, April 13:
Making it clear that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, India today said all future deals for Rafale fighters would also be through government to government route, indicating that the $20 billion MMRCA tender has virtually been scrapped.
The development came after Prime Minister Narendra Modi decided to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender, for which Rafale was shortlisted.
Noting that MMRCA negotiations had entered into a “loop” or a “vortex” with no solution in sight, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale has to be bought and if it will be under ’Make in India’ programme.
The minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.
“Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route,” he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready to fly conditions.
He said what has to be done to the rest would de decided after discussions between the two governments.
Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.
“But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government,” he said briefing reporters at South Block.
Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, “All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly—away condition which means they will be manufactured by company in France and supplied in fly away conditions“.
Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.
Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues — pricing and Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.
Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Parrikar | Business Line
New Delhi, April 13:
Making it clear that one car cannot travel on two roads at the same time, India today said all future deals for Rafale fighters would also be through government to government route, indicating that the $20 billion MMRCA tender has virtually been scrapped.
The development came after Prime Minister Narendra Modi decided to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft in fly-away condition from the French government directly, sidestepping a gruelling three-year negotiations for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft(MMRCA) tender, for which Rafale was shortlisted.
Noting that MMRCA negotiations had entered into a “loop” or a “vortex” with no solution in sight, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said direct negotiations with France will now decide how much more Rafale has to be bought and if it will be under ’Make in India’ programme.
The minister refrained from giving a direct reply to questions whether requirement of Air Force for more MMRCA will be through Rafale or if any other player can come into action.
“Scope was only possible in Government to Government deal. Instead of going through the Request for Proposal (RFP) route where there was lot of confusion and chaos, it was decided that we will go through the G2G route,” he said explaining that 36 Rafale jets would be procured in ready to fly conditions.
He said what has to be done to the rest would de decided after discussions between the two governments.
Asked what it means to the eight-year-old tender process for MMRCA, for which Rafale was shortlisted, Parrikar said it has not been decided yet.
“But if this (G2G) route is followed, obviously, one car cannot travel on two different roads. There were lot of problems on that (tender) road. That is why we have adopted the procedure of direct government to government,” he said briefing reporters at South Block.
Replying to another query if future deals on Rafale would also be through G2G route, Parrikar said, “All deal(s) will be in G2G only. The 36 are in fly—away condition which means they will be manufactured by company in France and supplied in fly away conditions“.
Under the MMRCA contract, while 18 aircraft were to be bought off the shelf, 108 were to be manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited under a license from Dassault Aviation, the manufacturers of Rafale.
Though Rafale was shortlisted in 2012 after a five-year tending process, a final contract could not be signed due to differences over two issues — pricing and Dassault’s reluctance to stand guarantee for planes manufactured by HAL.
Future Rafale deals will also be under govt to govt: Parrikar | Business Line
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