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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Rafale contract on verge of finalisation: Government sources
NEW DELHI: The contract for 36 Rafales is in the last stages of finalisation and the multi-billion euro deal with France could be announced soon.

"Finer points of the contract are being worked out. The deal is almost in final stages," government sources said.

Last month, a report submitted by a team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the defence ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's office for review and clearance.
Sources said the PMO had sought from Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which was replied to

French sources have said they are expecting a positive development this month.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions. The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display

Link::http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...n-government-sources/articleshow/54292945.cms
That PMO point was about 10 days back. The question was due to comparison of Rafale operating cost and support package versus our main fleet of MKI and prior Dassault product Mirage.
The unit price was due to the revised escalation cost method bcz of which the MMRCA price became loaded price.
Both these points were replied to PMO babus scrutinizing the file papers. Based on clarity only finally it landed in agenda point of the meeting,
 
That PMO point was about 10 days back. The question was due to comparison of Rafale operating cost and support package versus our main fleet of MKI and prior Dassault product Mirage.
The unit price was due to the revised escalation cost method bcz of which the MMRCA price became loaded price.
Both these points were replied to PMO babus scrutinizing the file papers. Based on clarity only finally it landed in agenda point of the meeting,
Really ???
Aur media ko aaj pata chala:hitwall::angry:
 
Topi drama continues......

i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???
Some Bits Based on Source

i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???
  • To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
  • PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?
  • DM MP said Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. (he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
  • PM NaMo said then , yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?
  • DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
  • PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , Anyone else gave similar things?
  • DM MP said Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. (pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
  • All burst out laughing
  • PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
  • A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
  • PM Namo said in hindi, check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this
  • DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA
 
Some Bits Based on Source

  • To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
  • PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?
  • DM MP said Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. (he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
  • PM NaMo said then , yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?
  • DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
  • PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , Anyone else gave similar things?
  • DM MP said Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. (pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
  • All burst out laughing
  • PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
  • A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
  • PM Namo said in hindi, check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this
  • DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...

@Abingdonboy @Vergennes @MilSpec @anant_s @Picdelamirand-oil @Taygibay @Ankit Kumar 002 @randomradio @Armani @[Bregs] @GuardianRED @R!CK @CNL-PN-AA

I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck.

This is how not things work or atleast they didn't used to. Cabinet briefs are put across after thorough vetting and it is assumed by all that the data presented is Kosher. Put simply if there were any points regarding further vetting or classification from associated ministries or vendors then the matter wouldn't have come in the agenda.

Discussions as you have said also don't happen in cabinet meeting, they happen informally as cabinet meetings are structured and minuted. Records are achieved.

Obviously the above doesn't apply to emergency meets but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.
 
Is it simply a political game? Or are the GoI and French Govt being shrewd by trying to keep the far bigger deal under wraps (to the greatest extent possible) to insulate it from the propaganda and outright smear campaign that has plagued the Rafale contract from 2011?

Correct answer would be both, old boy!
Politics as in internal to Bharat also being part of "insulating it from propaganda".

I hope that I will shock few people by noting that Indians love discussing deals.
In fact, some both in GoI and the general public like discussing problems more
than achieving solutions or so it seems. To the point where I sometimes wonde-
red if they made a cut on the cash generated by those convos. Like an IT start-up value?

Knowing how its people react is IMHoO the motivation for NaMO/MP to do so.
By keeping the two parts of an acquisition separate in the media as CNL-PN-AA
mentioned ( "secret deal stuff" ), the present Indian leadership defends its ways.
Those like a new member who have an Indian centric vision so exaggerated that
it borders on schizophrenia won't be able to attack both parts of the equation as
they would in a common package.
If both parts of that deal were to fail or succeed, nothing is gained but if one garners
more opposition [ say the high price of only 36 planes ] the other won't follow suite
or at least not de facto.

This may seem like a lot of trouble to influence perceptions but consider this :

- Quite a few Indians believe what they once thought validates what they think in a
vicious circle, as found again yesterday while reading a sadly renowned national forum.
To the point where a litany of woes and bad intent was credited to the other side and
since they trust themselves so much, ended with an incessant list of insults to France.
No amount of reality can silence these but they still talk and they still vote.

- Then the habit of catering to the views of such weirdos is so pregnant in the land that
no amount of explaining will do and answering -"That's ridiculous" only loses one votes.

- And since the "conspi-tasy" crowd never sleeps, GoI has to dance a three person tango.
To avoid this awkward attempt, it is easier to let the rumours float out to sea than to clean
the beaches by hand and truth which explains why the MMRCA losers were allowed to
chat on. This way, GoI can tango to success while the dreamers jerk with the losers.

- Thus, keeping the harshest part of negotiations under wrap minimizes critics' opinion.


By the time things clear up in those muddled minds, the Rafales will be nearing retirement,
Namo will have left politics and the lingering noise made into books in the fiction section.

I find this to be a shrewd way of implementing a need while delaying friction. Go NaMo!

And a great day to you my mate, Tay.


P.S.

I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck. This is how not things work or at least they didn't used to.
It's like a double pass on erasing hard drives, sort of. If the committees get one check, they
can later claim to have been swindled by nefarious ( added ) details.
If they get a second look and find nothing wrong, they'll be silenced less they admit to incompetency.

but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.

It is an emergency precisely because it has been pending for years.
Once India gets that, procurements will become almost as easy as for everyone else? :)
 
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i fail to understand bro when a file is put for final approval before CCS then the law ministry opinion and advise for changes is attached. then why again its being referred back for law ministry approval ???
no not referred. recheck for assurance.

Reference will happen if they have a doubt for any specific point and will seek a legal opinion on that.

Here the recheck is language which covers all aspects. Such checks are more cursory in nature and incorporates to see every point in the approval file has been cleared by respective ministries or not . Even in case say any point a mixed or a ambiguous opinion is given than such a point will be again asked from law ministry for complete clarity.

The draft and internal approval system has data from our own MOD and derived from French side submissions. Its bascially a reassurance that nothing has been missed.

I don't buy the penultimate point where PM asks for recheck.

This is how not things work or atleast they didn't used to. Cabinet briefs are put across after thorough vetting and it is assumed by all that the data presented is Kosher. Put simply if there were any points regarding further vetting or classification from associated ministries or vendors then the matter wouldn't have come in the agenda.

Discussions as you have said also don't happen in cabinet meeting, they happen informally as cabinet meetings are structured and minuted. Records are achieved.

Obviously the above doesn't apply to emergency meets but then the matter is pending for years and is hardly an emergency.

CCS is not one meeting. There are multiple parts of the same with initially Economical articles taken first followed by other agenda points.

The whole agenda point discussion was not more than 2 minutes and thus the meeting moved on. Normally its more of all checked and all members agree, approved to be minuted .. thats all. Discussion of points which are referred to other ministry for clarification is minuted.. here it is not referred rather a recheck that everything , every base is covered or not and thats plainly a re-assurance owing to the issue of MMRCA being scrapped and technically the deal size being the one of perception point issue of our masses. The structure of deal is done by rest of the people but initiator to break the logjam is PM himself. Thus, its nothing wrong if he wants he wants to see all things are in order or not.
 
no not referred. recheck for assurance.

Reference will happen if they have a doubt for any specific point and will seek a legal opinion on that.

Here the recheck is language which covers all aspects. Such checks are more cursory in nature and incorporates to see every point in the approval file has been cleared by respective ministries or not . Even in case say any point a mixed or a ambiguous opinion is given than such a point will be again asked from law ministry for complete clarity.

The draft and internal approval system has data from our own MOD and derived from French side submissions. Its bascially a reassurance that nothing has been missed.



CCS is not one meeting. There are multiple parts of the same with initially Economical articles taken first followed by other agenda points.

The whole agenda point discussion was not more than 2 minutes and thus the meeting moved on. Normally its more of all checked and all members agree, approved to be minuted .. thats all. Discussion of points which are referred to other ministry for clarification is minuted.. here it is not referred rather a recheck that everything , every base is covered or not and thats plainly a re-assurance owing to the issue of MMRCA being scrapped and technically the deal size being the one of perception point issue of our masses. The structure of deal is done by rest of the people but initiator to break the logjam is PM himself. Thus, its nothing wrong if he wants he wants to see all things are in order or not.

That's all well and good. Please understand what I am saying -

PM knew the decision was on agenda as agenda is deigned by PMO for the most part

If he wanted a recheck then ask it before, he just has to pick up the phone and tell DM that be sure to recheck everything and cover bases. If and when everyone is sure then the point is bought out to CCS.

The comment which he made sounds trivial and gives an impression that he doesn't trust his bureaucrats and DM to do the paperwork thoroughly before putting it up for signature before PM of India. This comment is also recorded now in archive that is why such things don't happen in CCS.

What can happen in CCS meeting is this

Arun Jaitley can raise an objection or so can some other cab min that he has concerns on so and so clause and thus the objection of a particular minister is recorded. Congress/UPA meeting was full of such base covering tactics.
 
Some Bits Based on Source

  • To a query by a senior cabinet minister (from Lutyen Circle fraternity) if any more jet is coming for a line in India or not, the whole folks laughed.
  • PM NaMo Looked at DM MP and said in hindi roughly , i hope its explicit what we want in future part. If needed check that again. And who are coming for that?
  • DM MP said Partnership, some talks are there with Reliance ,Tata, Kalyani, more are there (aur bhi hai) etc. Bharat Electronics is there also for majority of things. DRDO is there also for the engine. (he meant GTRE, a lab under DRDO)
  • PM NaMo said then , yes Engine, and what about the other things Doval had talked about?
  • DM MP listed then the technologies being transferred and showed the report of the process and milestones
  • PM NaMo then said in hindi roughly , Anyone else gave similar things?
  • DM MP said Carter assured few of the things. But nothing in writing or in proper proposal like this. (pointing to a stack of papers , a report detailing each technology and how transfer is mandated and proposed)
  • All burst out laughing
  • PM NaMo asked for opinion what others think.
  • A senior cabinet minister said we have to set a benchmark with this deal. I hope Law Ministry had seen every point proposed that we get all benefits as we have desired.
  • PM Namo said in hindi, check for every point language and interpretation. Law is funny. so lets take extra few days but be 100% (sau pratishak) sure that nothing is left from this
  • DM MP said will check again and put it in next meeting...

Is this supposedly from the CCS meeting? How many ministers were in that meeting...? ?


lol..... you think this conversation is real ? :cheesy:

If it is real & is from the CCS meeting, the source would be easily identifiable. :blink:
 
Correct answer would be both, old boy!
Politics as in internal to Bharat also being part of "insulating it from propaganda".

I hope that I will shock few people by noting that Indians love discussing deals.
In fact, some both in GoI and the general public like discussing problems more
than achieving solutions or so it seems. To the point where I sometimes wonde-
red if they made a cut on the cash generated by those convos. Like an IT start-up value?

Knowing how its people react is IMHoO the motivation for NaMO/MP to do so.
By keeping the two parts of an acquisition separate in the media as CNL-PN-AA
mentioned ( "secret deal stuff" ), the present Indian leadership defends its ways.
Those like a new member who have an Indian centric vision so exaggerated that
it borders on schizophrenia won't be able to attack both parts of the equation as
they would in a common package.
If both parts of that deal were to fail or succeed, nothing is gained but if one garners
more opposition [ say the high price of only 36 planes ] the other won't follow suite
or at least not de facto.

This may seem like a lot of trouble to influence perceptions but consider this :

- Quite a few Indians believe what they once thought validates what they think in a
vicious circle, as found again yesterday while reading a sadly renowned national forum.
To the point where a litany of woes and bad intent was credited to the other side and
since they trust themselves so much, ended with an incessant list of insults to France.
No amount of reality can silence these but they still talk and they still vote.

- Then the habit of catering to the views of such weirdos is so pregnant in the land that
no amount of explaining will do and answering -"That's ridiculous" only loses one votes.

- And since the "conspi-tasy" crowd never sleeps, GoI has to dance a three person tango.
To avoid this awkward attempt, it is easier to let the rumours float out to sea than to clean
the beaches by hand and truth which explains why the MMRCA losers were allowed to
chat on. This way, GoI can tango to success while the dreamers jerk with the losers.

- Thus, keeping the harshest part of negotiations under wrap minimizes critics' opinion.


By the time things clear up in those muddled minds, the Rafales will be nearing retirement,
Namo will have left politics and the lingering noise made into books in the fiction section.

I find this to be a shrewd way of implementing a need while delaying friction. Go NaMo!

And a great day to you my mate, Tay.


P.S.

I think its laughable that you are attempting to psycho analyse India in detail.

What you should do is present the French POV and let Indians present the Indian POV. Your analysis of India is as much of value as my analysis of France and the French.

Do yourself a favour and stick to facts rather than your own version of reality.
 
Do yourself a favour and stick to facts rather than your own version of reality.

MDR!!! I'm being accused by an Indian of lacking in realism?
:woot: Thanks, you just made my day, buddy!

Besides when I stick to facts, folks like you don't understand!

8-) Have a great day nonetheless and GL, Tay.
 
I did not post the list of 16 technologies. So dont worry on that. I only posted things which are so general that its bascially a lowest level classification in terms of confidentiality and potentially not harming us in any manner.

From 1210 i have waited to see an open source say its postponed bcz of the same fact that i will be out too much in limelight if i post that here,

The discussion are even more livid. and it touched many other points which are obviously omitted for the same very reason..

The gist was posted bcz there is a campaign out in media to showcase the close relationship dynamics and a possible new alignment. And truth is far from that. Nothing escapes PM and DM eyes not even the fact that a report of Su35 talks also surfaced in the intel brief and about the proposed joint exercise between our Neighbor and Russia. But then such things i cant post here obviously as i said classification issues.

You can post the list of 27 technologies and the PM breakfast and lunch menu too.

Either way its unwanted and unwarranted.

If you are saying that you are countering Media propaganda by selective leaking of Info in PDF (with the blessing of the powers that be) then I guess we all needs to have our heads checked.

MDR!!! I'm being accused by an Indian of lacking in realism?
:woot: Thanks, you just made my day, buddy!

Oh you mean french are Realists and Indians are not ? :cheesy:
 
That's all well and good. Please understand what I am saying -

PM knew the decision was on agenda as agenda is deigned by PMO for the most part

If he wanted a recheck then ask it before, he just has to pick up the phone and tell DM that be sure to recheck everything and cover bases. If and when everyone is sure then the point is bought out to CCS.

The comment which he made sounds trivial and gives an impression that he doesn't trust his bureaucrats and DM to do the paperwork thoroughly before putting it up for signature before PM of India. This comment is also recorded now in archive that is why such things don't happen in CCS.

What can happen in CCS meeting is this

Arun Jaitley can raise an objection or so can some other cab min that he has concerns on so and so clause and thus the objection of a particular minister is recorded. Congress/UPA meeting was full of such base covering tactics.

I dont know about trust part bcz thats something politicians wont say honestly ever.

The paperwork recheck thoroughly arises from the fact that bench marking of this deal will be done and all future deals will have to be better in terms of the applicable conditions.

Secondly the biggest chunk of the issue is how the so called technology transfer will happen and how if the same is not found to be adequate or in proper form as mandated, the legal ministry's clause for seeking compensation and associated liabilities.

The third is the other deal (MII) involving the mandate which has a built in clause of India opting out of it and not facing any financial loss aspect within a stipulated period and certain preconditions to be fulfilled

As of what source said, no minister objected there not even Jaitley. It was PM himself who wanted re assurance. His points and queries were clear of which topics are his prime concern.
 
Oh you mean french are Realists and Indians are not ?

I didn't say that, you did but good to know you can take hints.

Ufff ....... maybe you should try talking in French. Would that help ?

Oh, yes! My English is good enough for Brits and Americans including
higher education but not for Indians. Reality strikes again, huh?

You're amazing and I'm out; good day, Tay.
 

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