Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Stephen Cohen]

@Taygibay

You have got it all wrong ; we ALL want the Rafale deal to HAPPEN

But somehow are unable to appreciate the hardball attitude of Dassault

 

[Taygibay]

the problem I have is the delay Dassault caused that stopped this deal from being signed and the double standards they showed just to gain more own benefits. So I have no bias against Dassault, but don't ignore their mistakes

All of which you have no proof, only hearsay and opinion. Had you at least added supposed mistakes by the end …
That is a perfect example of what I consider your bias. And as said you did that over hundreds and possibly thousands of posts in here. I have not reached 120 until this one in answering you since I joined PDF 3 years ago.
QED.

But hey, feel free to repeat again, who knows ... it may become true?

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

@MokshaVimukthi OK, I'll accept that … hoping that if I had said India was known to mess up procurements ( which I did not yet but read countless times on foreign fora ) you'd take it as lightly?
100% agreed on your comment about immorality of arms sales ( Egypt/Raf included up to a point ); I twisted internally at the naiveness of it as I wrote. But one can wish for better practices to spring up eventually says the eternal optimist!

I wrote on my blog about colonialism after having been asked by a fellow forumer. The piece was lauded by people from ex-colonies and snubbed and attacks by my own Western "supposed brothers". I don't feel I have to defend my impartiality on most subjects. I am not racist or anything like that either.

But you're allowed to see me as you want.
No harsh feelings, Tay.

India HAS messed up procurements. That is a fact. I don't take it lightly or heavy. I am impartial to the truth.

I know you only from the posts on pdf and I do not judge you badly. Your posts are rational enough for me to know you yourself did not believe in the "moral" point.

But the fact that you DID make that point, tells me about a desire to deceive when possible. What conclusion must one draw from that ?

 

[Taygibay]

@ Moksha No Moksha, not to deceive, only to point out that such things while omnipresent are still wrong and that I'm more pleased that Dassault did not try to do so as you suggested then if they had.
Edited to slack this OT chat.

@ top gun Agreed to your message wholeheartedly, man since you for one did not play one side as lily-white and the other as evil!

@ Stephen I never said you were opposed to the plane? I have only one point in this whole thing : proofs or the absence thereof.
When your MoD Parrikar speaks, I validate that but not a single piece with "unnamed high ranking sources".

If we collect all such excerpts from NAMED Indian & French officials, most of the noise heard since L1 attribution ( heck since MrCA before the second M came in even ) would justify 200 posts, maybe 300.

That's all I'm saying! If anyone sees more, they should discuss it with themselves in front of the mirror.
Ah, if only we'd have been prescient in 2007, we could have opened a thread called "How Taygibay is so strict on sources and anti-Indian that it makes the world a more dangerous place" alas no one thought of it.
What a shame!

But as this is now more of a thread derailment than Sancho produced, how about have one last answer each to blast me and then stop until we get real stuff to discuss?

Going out, have a great day one and all, Tay.

 

[sancho]

All of which you have no proof, only hearsay and opinion.

Which is nonsense, since we have plenty statements of Indian officials that state that Dassault deviates from the RFP rules, we have the former DM and IAF chief on record that the RFP says HAL is the lead integrator and that Dassault can't move away from that and that Dassault can only divert other parts of the production to Reliance. We have prove that the DPP 2006 has liability damages and performance clauses and we have plenty of proof on how HAL is working with foreign companies for licence productions and JV, contrary to the claims of Dassault. But as I said, it's not surprising that you can't handle the facts and just say it's hearsay.

 

[Taygibay]

And yet by now only the CNC has yet to report which points out these things were settled but you are still whining and making comparisons which bright folks know are not reason?
Fine Sancho, all proofs are on the Indian side then and Dassault is the worst interlocutor India ever faced …

In which case, the GoI is the biggest dummy ever for continuing the talks according to your whining.
Sorry, I had to flame by pushing your logic to its conclusion to show it is not.
I'll out of this thread until the decision falls so you can be right all the time.

There are more important matters in India, on PDF and in this world anyway.
Long live the noise.
Tay.

 

[Donatello]

Which is nonsense, since we have plenty statements of Indian officials that state that Dassault deviates from the RFP rules, we have the former DM and IAF chief on record that the RFP says HAL is the lead integrator and that Dassault can't move away from that and that Dassault can only divert other parts of the production to Reliance. We have prove that the DPP 2006 has liability damages and performance clauses and we have plenty of proof on how HAL is working with foreign companies for licence productions and JV, contrary to the claims of Dassault. But as I said, it's not surprising that you can't handle the facts and just say it's hearsay.

I am not sure if that is how contracts work....Dassault is providing a product that India wants, and India is paying for it. Now, Even if India mentioned in the tender/RFP rules that HAL will be the lead integrator and Dassault responsible for all HAL made jets as well, the problem arises that It is India that selected Rafale, not Dassault......so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.

First Dassault promised us the moon and now it is looking to back track

This whole thing needs to come to a conclusion either way

For Indian officals negotiating the deal ; it has been a very tedious journey

Fortunately we have the SU 30 MKI to fall back upon

 

[sancho]

I am not sure if that is how contracts work....Dassault is providing a product that India wants, and India is paying for it. Now, Even if India mentioned in the tender/RFP rules that HAL will be the lead integrator and Dassault responsible for all HAL made jets as well, the problem arises that It is India that selected Rafale, not Dassault......so Dassault will have their own terms to come to contract. Otherwise, by logic, they should be simply disqualified now, if not when making an invalid bid.

Wrong, since Dassault accepted the RFP and DDP rules, by entering the tender, otherwise they wouldn't had been approved to participate in the first place! So they have to stick to our demands and can't deviate from it now, after their product was selected as L1. They now only try to get more benefits for them, by getting more workshare and less responsibility as they initially agreed to. I even don't mind it if they tried it once (back in late 2012), but it's freaking 2015 now and these delays are going on for far too long, for things that were clear since 2007.

 

[Agent_47]

Snecma and HAL to create a joint venture and build a new production facility in India
Aero India, Bangalore (India) – February 18, 2015. Snecma (Safran), a leading manufacturer of aircraft engines, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a leading aerospace manufacturer, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on January 28, 2015 in Bangalore to explore establishing a joint venture in India for the production of aero-engine parts. The MoU was signed by Mr. Bruno Durand, Vice President for Industrial Operations & Supply Chain of Snecma and Mr. Arunachalam Muthukumaraswami, General Manager of the Engine Division of HAL.

The proposed joint venture will initially focus on the manufacture of high-tech parts for the Dassault Rafale’s Snecma M88 engine, then subsequently contribute to other major aerospace projects of HAL & Snecma, in India and worldwide. Spanning over 30,000 square meters, the proposed joint venture’s new plant is expected to benefit from substantial investment by the two partners, providing it with state-of-the-art machinery and equipment.

This agreement marks a major step forward in the long-standing collaboration between Snecma and HAL. The proposed joint venture will further broaden the scope of the excellent relations established over the past 60 years between Safran affiliates and the Indian aerospace industry*. For example, Snecma manufactures the M53 engines powering the Mirage 2000H "Vajra" fighters operated by the Indian Air Force.

"This new partnership clearly reflects the close relationship established over many years between Snecma, our parent Safran and the Indian aerospace industry," said Pierre Fabre, Chairman and CEO of Snecma. "We are strongly committed to contributing to the ’Make in India’ policy, based on ambitious partnerships and extensive direct investments. This new venture is further proof that we are actively strengthening our existing ties with HAL.”

- See more at: Request Rejected

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

The Negotiations for BOTH the Scorpene and Mirage 2000 Upgrades took FIVE years to Complete

I guess it is the French way of doing things

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

@ Moksha No Moksha, not to deceive, only to point out that such things while omnipresent are still wrong and that I'm more pleased that Dassault did not try to do so as you suggested then if they had.
Edited to slack this OT chat.

All unofficial comments points to the contrary. That Dassault did try to deceive and that is what caused the road block and left a bad taste with the Negotiators and extreme animosity in HAL.

That is how you loose credibility and make people not to want doing business with you.

Snecma and HAL to create a joint venture and build a new production facility in India
Aero India, Bangalore (India) – February 18, 2015. Snecma (Safran), a leading manufacturer of aircraft engines, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), a leading aerospace manufacturer, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) on January 28, 2015 in Bangalore to explore establishing a joint venture in India for the production of aero-engine parts. The MoU was signed by Mr. Bruno Durand, Vice President for Industrial Operations & Supply Chain of Snecma and Mr. Arunachalam Muthukumaraswami, General Manager of the Engine Division of HAL.

The proposed joint venture will initially focus on the manufacture of high-tech parts for the Dassault Rafale’s Snecma M88 engine, then subsequently contribute to other major aerospace projects of HAL & Snecma, in India and worldwide. Spanning over 30,000 square meters, the proposed joint venture’s new plant is expected to benefit from substantial investment by the two partners, providing it with state-of-the-art machinery and equipment.

This agreement marks a major step forward in the long-standing collaboration between Snecma and HAL. The proposed joint venture will further broaden the scope of the excellent relations established over the past 60 years between Safran affiliates and the Indian aerospace industry*. For example, Snecma manufactures the M53 engines powering the Mirage 2000H "Vajra" fighters operated by the Indian Air Force.

"This new partnership clearly reflects the close relationship established over many years between Snecma, our parent Safran and the Indian aerospace industry," said Pierre Fabre, Chairman and CEO of Snecma. "We are strongly committed to contributing to the ’Make in India’ policy, based on ambitious partnerships and extensive direct investments. This new venture is further proof that we are actively strengthening our existing ties with HAL.”

- See more at: Request Rejected

Its only an MOU. By itself, it means nothing. Its not even a promise. Just an understanding of working together when opportunity arises.

 

[Donatello]

Wrong, since Dassault accepted the RFP and DDP rules, by entering the tender, otherwise they wouldn't had been approved to participate in the first place! So they have to stick to our demands and can't deviate from it now, after their product was selected as L1. They now only try to get more benefits for them, by getting more workshare and less responsibility as they initially agreed to. I even don't mind it if they tried it once (back in late 2012), but it's freaking 2015 now and these delays are going on for far too long, for things that were clear since 2007.

Dassault is selling, India is buying. Why doesn't India cancel the deal? Dassault cannot do much, unless they substantially agree to let go of their demands, which puts their business at risk.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Dassault is selling, India is buying. Why doesn't India cancel the deal?

India wants the deal but at favourable terms

We just dont want to buy planes ; it is all about TOT and giving a boost to
Indian industry

SInce we are willing to spend a lot of money ; we feel we should get a good deal

India has had a very good relationship with Dassault and France

So we thought ; that they would be amenable to our demands

But if things dont move forward ; we will have to call it quits

It will all be decided in TWO months time

 

[Agent_47]

Its only an MOU. By itself, it means nothing. Its not even a promise. Just an understanding of working together when opportunity arises.

Dude its part of Rafale ToT, When #MMRCA is signed all these MOUs are reality.