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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Link doesn't work, can you correct that please?
How's that sir?

Well he is just stating his point of view, but the above point is the critical one, where Dassault is not agreeing to the performance clause.

Well more accurately reflecting the opinion of Dassualt But I'm more willing to belive his optimism on the deal than anything "unnamed sources" are alleged to say in the indian media.

I don't think anyone in his postion would make such comments lightly.
 
How's that sir?

Says: 403 Forbidden


Well more accurately reflecting the opinion of Dassualt But I'm more willing to belive his optimism on the deal than anything "unnamed sources" are alleged to say in the indian media.

True, but the critical issue is that his statement must comply to Parrikars statements and other than, playing the ball back to India, there is nothing that suggest an improved situation. Infact:

After ... the one who takes the hammer and taps on the sheet metal will be Indian. If he fails, he will be responsible, it' normal.

Remains to sound as, we only take responsibility for the first 18.
 
In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt

France appears to have won precious time on the Rafale program, with Egypt buying the twinjet fighters in an arms package worth €5.2 billion (US $5.9 billion), relieving domestic budgetary pressure.
Egypt has decided to buy 24 Rafale fighter jets and a multimission frigate, with a contract signing to be held in Cairo on Feb. 16, President François Hollande said in a Feb. 12 statement.

A big question on the deal is, who pays for the weapons, asked defense specialist Pierre Conesa. Has France or Saudi Arabia provided loans or underwritten the financing, he asked, noting the lack of details on the financing of the package.

The Egyptian economy has been under pressure for three years amid deep social unrest and a sharp fall in tourism. Human rights issues and the Army's ejection of the government have raised concerns overseas...

In France, Relief Over Rafale Sale to Egypt
 
You want speculation and how one article from Ajai (broadsword) is being taken up by supporters/speculators. I am pasting how russian media is spinning this.. see below

India will not buy Rafale jets from France due to high prices - media

India will not be buying French Rafale fighter jets due to their high prices, the Monday edition of Business Standard reported, citing sources in the Indian Ministry of Defense.

Earlier, Indian media reported that the Ministry of Defense of India might refuse to purchase 126 fighters for its Air Force from Rafale, which won the tender in 2012, and instead buy the Russian Su-30MKI.

According to the Business Standard, three years of negotiations between representatives of Rafale and the Ministry of Defense of India revealed that the proposal submitted by the Dassault Company was more expensive than that of its tender competitor – the Eurofighter Typhoon, and not cheaper, as the Ministry of Defense initially announced on January 31, 2012.

“No representative of the Ministry of Defense can approve a contract with Dassault, which will now surpass $20 billion, seeing that the Rafale is now the most inexpensive option,” said an official close to the committee negotiating the contract terms.


According to the publication, the tender for the purchase of 126 medium multi-role fighters was the first time that the Indian Ministry of Defense has calculated the lifecycle cost of the aircraft, rather than just the purchase price. This meant that the winner of the tender was to be the fighter jet with the lowest overall costs in terms of purchase price, operation, and maintenance during the entire 30-40 years of the aircraft’s service life, rather than just the lowest initial price.

“The Ministry of Defense, in considering the incomplete conceptual design project from Dassault, incorrectly judged the Rafale as being the cheaper option. Now, three years later, when we finally received the clear figures from the French, we discovered that India would be spending significantly more than was originally supposed,” said the publication’s source.

Meanwhile, Indian media are writing that the Indian defense establishment is now seriously thinking about dropping the French fighter jet in favor of the better Russian Su-30MKI, which Indian pilots are familiar with, and which is being assembled under license at an Indian company Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar also noted the fact that the Su-30MKI meets the requirements of the Indian Air Force. However, the defense establishment has not officially confirmed that it is considering replacing the Rafale with the Su-30MKI.

India will not buy Rafale jets from France due to high prices - media | Russia & India Report

India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative


India has scrapped a deal with France to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), after three years of negotiations, due to the high cost of the project.

India has announced that a deal to buy 126 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) from French manufacturer Dassault Aviation is “effectively dead”.


The reason is the announced high cost of the overall project, according to the country’s online newspaper Business Standard.

The global tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) was the first time the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) had awarded a contract based on life cycle costing (LCC). This meant the winner of the tender would not be the fighter with the cheapest purchase price; instead the chosen fighter would be the one that was the cheapest to buy, fly, maintain and overhaul over its 30-40 year service life.

As per the original tender, eighteen of the 126 planes were supposed to be purchased directly from Dassault, while Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was due to manufacture the other 108 under license at a to-be-built facility in the city of Bangalore.

Dassault Aviation has refused to take full responsibility for these 108 fighters to be manufactured in India, which automatically increased the overall cost of the whole project.


Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has recently said that Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters, which had been built by Hindustan Aeronautics at its Nashik plant, could be substituted for them, according to the website IndiaSpend.

The Sukhoi-30 MKI is currently India’s most advanced fighter and forms the backbone of its air force. It’s also half the current cost of a Rafale.

The Indian Air Force first signed a deal with the Russian government to purchase eight air defense Su-30K and 32 multi-role Su-30 MK aircraft in 1996. IAF bought an additional 10 Su-30 MKs in December 1998.

India Scraps Rafale Fighter Deal With France, Eyes Russian Alternative / Sputnik International




One article from "Un-named sources from MOD" and all hell breaks loose... Let Rafale lose out but pls for that let MOD or DM say that instead of such a article. The immaturity is appalling.
 
What do you think of this?

Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest

Rafale proposal 'effectively dead' as Dassault bid not cheapest | Business Standard News

Any truth in this?

February 16, 2015 at 7:18 AM


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Prasun K. Sengupta said...
That's the cheapest form of yellow journalism. No one in the history of aviation has ever submitted a 'sketchy commercial bid' in response to a highly detailed RFQ document containing reams of forms to be filled up for technical evaluations & price evaluations. Indicative price-levels are never ever presented by anyone, rest assured.


PKS seems to have answered this query by someone already
So a rebuttal.. hmmmmm
Yellow journalism...
Yellow journalism, or the yellow press, is a type ofjournalism that presents little or no legitimate well-researched news and instead uses eye-catching headlines to sell more newspapers. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism.
hmmmmmmm.....
 
delay has already killed the interest and now high cost just added up to that killing the whole project itself!

I must say, French are very greedy/adamant and Indians do not know what they want, when they want it and how much they actually want to spend on that!
 
May not be completely true but what Prasun writes makes sense.
TRISHUL: Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity-1

Compounded Irrationalities Due To Systematic Stupidity-1


As the saying goes, “Those who know much, talk little”. But its meaning seems to have been lost on India’s new Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) Manohar Parrikar, if we are to believe what he was reported to have said at an on-the-record press conference on December 30, 2014 regarding the procurement of 189 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft (M-MRCA). Most of the ‘desi’ newspapers attributed two statements to Parrikar: (1) additional licence-built Su-30MKIs are adequate for the IAF in case it is decided not to procure the Rafale; and (2) The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs. Now, while it is understandable for a select group of ‘desi’ journalists to deliberately twist-and-turn the Raksha Mantri’s statements/observations (since for the past 18 months they have either been promoting, for their own vested financial interests, the procurement of either the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or the Eurofighter EF-2000), in case these ‘desi’ journalists for once did get it right and correctly quoted the Raksha Mantri, then India is indeed in some serious trouble.

Let me explain how and why. Neither the Su-30MKI nor the MiG-29UPG/MiG-29K were ever designed as multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA). Their design and performance parameters were instead optimised for air dominance/air superiority, with standoff all-weather precision strike undertaken from medium altitudes being a secondary capability. It is for this reason that the erstwhile USSR had developed the Su-24 and Su-27IB/Su-34 as all-weather, terrain-hugging deep penetration strike aircraft (DPSA), and the Su-25 as a dedicated tactical strike/close air support aircraft. Consequently, neither the Su-30MKI’s nor the MiG-29UPG’s/MiG-29K’s airframes have the stress tolerances that are required for flying terrain-hugging flight profiles. Their existing X-band multi-mode radars or MMR (RLSU-30MK NO-11M ‘Bars’ and the Zhuk-M2E) therefore don’t come with low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability or weather-mapping mode, and neither are they equipped with low-altitude navigation pods.

Consequently, the only true M-MRCAs that are operational today in an area between India and Japan is the Republic of Singapore Air Force’s Boeing-built F-15SGs, which come equipped with Raytheon-supplied APG-63(V)3 AESA-MMR, Boeing/ELBIT Systems joint helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS), TIGER Eyes Sensor Suite comprising Lockheed Martin’s AAQ-13 LANTIRN-ER navigation pod (containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor and aterrain-following radar and forward-looking infra-red sensor), an AAQ-33 Sniper XR targetting pod containing a mid-wave staring-array FLIR sensor with a 40,000-feet laser and charge-couple device (CCD) TV, and the AAS-43 infra-red search-and-track (IRST) system containing a passive long-wave IR sensor.
Simply put, therefore, the IAF is in dire need of procuring an M-MRCA fleet with automatic terrain-following capability—which the Rafale is optimised for. Presently, the IAF operates 3 MiG-29B-12 squadrons (now being upgraded to MiG-29UPG standard), 9 MiG-21 Bison squadrons, 4 Jaguar IS squadrons, 1 Jaguar IM squadron, 10 Su-30MKI squadrons, 3 Mirage 2000H/TH squadrons (being upgraded to Mirage 2000UPG standard), 3 MiG-27UPG squadrons, and 2 MiG-27M squadrons, making a total of 35 squadrons. Although the sanctioned strength of the IAF is 42 combat aircraft squadrons (which is due for increase to 50 squadrons by 2024, at least on paper), of these, those equipped with MiG-21 Bisons, MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms will have to be decommissioned by 2017 at the latest.

Presently, the IAF is gearing up to form the first ‘Tejas’ Mk1 squadron—No45 ‘Flying Daggers’ Sqn—which will initially be first raised in Bengaluru before relocating to Sulur in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, this March. Present plans call for the first four IOC-standard) Tejas Mk1 MRCAs built by the MoD-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to be delivered by March 31, 2015, another six by March 31, 2016, and another eight by March 31, 2017. This squadron will, however, be declared fully operational only in 2022, once its 18 Tejas Mk1s are upgraded to FOC standard. The second Tejas Mk1-equipped squadron, comprising 20 FOC-standard MRCAs, will be formed up in 2017 and will become fully operational by March 31, 2020. All Tejas Mkls will be equipped with Israel Aerospace Industries/ELTA Systems-supplied EL/M-2032 MMRs, which will possess both automatic terrain-followingand weather mapping modes of operation.

Going by calculations based on universal norms, I have estimated the flyaway unit cost of procuring 40 Tejas Mk1s as being US$52 million. To this must be added the cost of air base customisation and procurement of weapons packages, all of which works to out about US$72 million per aircraft.

Meanwhile, to replace the MiG-27UPGs and MiG-27Ms, 68 Jaguar IS aircraft are presently being upgraded to DARIN 3-standard so that they can undertake all-weather tactical strike/close air support operations. This Rs.31.3 billion (US$0.57 billion) contract was awarded to HAL in March 2008 and is due for completion by December 2017. The upgraded Jaguar IS too will have on board the EL/M-2032 MMRs possessing both automatic terrain-following and weather mapping modes of operation.

From the above, it becomes clear that the IAF is now in desperate need of M-MRCAs with credible deep penetration strike capabilities and capable of flying terrain-hugging profiles. It is also well-known that the IAF wants to arrest the steady decline of its frontline combat aircraft inventory ASAP. The only available options—all non-negotiable—are as follows:

1) Ink the procurement contract for 189 Rafales latest by June 2015.

2) Increase the size of the Su-30MKI fleet to no less than 350 by procuring the first 50 Super Su-30MKIs in semi-knocked-down condition from Russia’s IRKUT Corp, starting 2017, while concurrently commencing the upgrading of in-service Su-30MKIs in successive tranches to Super Sukhoi-standard.

3) Increase the quantum of Jaguar IS being upgraded to DARIN 3-stadard from 68 to 125 and re-engine the entire fleet with Honeywell-supplied F-125 turbofans.

Now a brief explanation on why the Rafale M-MRCA procurement’s contract signature has been subjected to delays. Firstly, there was the financial crunch over the past two years. Secondly, the Union Ministry for Home Affairs had in 2012 issued mandatory industrial security-related regulations that called for comprehensive vetting (a most time-consuming process) of all technical and managerial personnel of those India-based Tier-1, Tier-2 and Tier-3 companies that were selected for the licence-manufacturing/licenced-assembly components of the Rafale M-MRCA. Thirdly, since French aerospace OEMs have always made use of France-origin precision machining, riveting and welding equipment and related test-benches, this time too they insisted that HAL and its sub-contractors procure all such hardware exclusively from French OEMs, instead of issuing global tenders for such industrial hardware procurements. Had HAL not agreed to comply with this key issue, all the involved French OEMs would have been unable to issue certificates of airworthiness for all those Rafales licence-built by HAL. It is this issue that has been most time-consuming and in the end, HAL had no other choice but to give-in.



Posted by Prasun K. Sengupta at 4:58 AM
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Go for early pak fa. Heck with the medium fight jet concept since it comes with low rcs. All ground attack can be handled by lca. And mki (long range). Im sure the cost will be less than rafale. And commonality with the future fgfa. lca to be mass produced injecting more money.
 
Prasun makes one very good point,

Dassault is looking to cash in on the Certification by insisting that HAL buy their OEM's at exorbitant prices. HAL OTOH wants to go by Industry best practices which calls for buying these equipments via a global tender.

Since these standards are global and international, in reality Dassault should have no problem in certifying the airworthiness of aricrafts built on these machines.

HAL is wise to stick to their stand and refused to be bullied by Dassault and be taken for a ride.
 
Induction of Rafale will take time

The minister said negotiations over pricing and the role of HAL in inducting the French fighter aircraft, Rafale, was taking time and causing delay in going ahead with the procurement of the aircraft which has won the bid. “There are some issues with regard to HAL’s role. Will Dassault, the company that manufactures Rafale, give guarantee to HAL on the 108 aircraft that will be produced by HAL? What HAL makes should be the same as what Dassault makes. So, whether Dassault takes responsibility for the aircraft that are not directly imported but made by HAL is what we are discussing. Pricing is also an issue. We haven’t given up and we’ll be looking forward to breaking ground soon,” Singh said.
 
Different source


Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal

Dassault Aviation, maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the ministry of defence for close to three years now for the $ 20-billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, may have to abandon the plan over lingering issues.

This is despite the fact that bagging the MMRCA tender, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. Contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged for over two years.

As reported by FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of HAL in the MMRCA.

Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.

Highly placed sources disclosed to FE that after being declared as L1, the French company was very much aware that as per the RFP it had responded to, “state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics was the designated production agency.” The French company had offered 22% work share for HAL at the initial stage of negotiations, as its response to the RFP was influenced by a planned partnership with Reliance Industries, that planned to expand into aerospace and defence in 2011.

Talking to FE, Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran, senior adviser to HAL’s management, said: “Guaranteeing HAL’s work is not the issue, but that the French are being “rigid” and refusing to stand behind the integrity of the design.”

Matheswaran, who was involved in drafting the original RFP for the deal, added: “Unfortunately, the French don’t want to be accountable in any way. However, the original equipment manufacturer has to stand guarantee with respect to design and integrity of design. By constantly denying to take responsibility for production of the 108 aircraft at HAL, the French are trying to get away from the OEM’s responsibility.” Also, it is about technology transfer, which the French are loath to do.


Dassault may abandon $20-bn MMRCA deal | The Financial Express
 
Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed

Key points :

  • 24 Rafale ordered : 16 Rafale B (two seater) and 8 Rafale C (single seater)
  • A first batch of 3 Rafale B to be delivered before July
  • A second batch of 3 Rafale delivered in 2016 and then probably 6 aircrafts delivered each year until 2019
  • Air to ground weapons : AASM missiles, Black Shaheen (export version of the scalp) cruise missiles,
  • Air to Air weapons : Mica EM and Mica IR Air to Air missiles
  • Reconnaissance : Reco-NG pod (according to "Secret Defense" blog)
  • About €3 billion for the aircrafts, their equipments and pilots training
  • About €1.1 billion for the weapons

Rafale News: Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed


Production - if the above is true, Dassault needs a production of 17 Rafales in 2017, to supply Egypt with 6 and India with 18 fighters (6 from the 2016 production)

Cost - if the above is true, Egypt pays $142 millions system-cost for each Rafale, but since they are basically diverted from French orders, mainly are twin seaters and in lower numbers, the cost for India per unit should be lower. But even if we assume the same price => $142 x 126 fighters = $17.892 billion
 
Rafale News: Egypt, the order for 24 Rafale is signed


Production - if the above is true, Dassault needs a production of 17 Rafales in 2017, to supply Egypt with 6 and India with 18 fighters (6 from the 2016 production)

Cost - if the above is true, Egypt pays $142 millions system-cost for each Rafale, but since they are basically diverted from French orders, mainly are twin seaters and in lower numbers, the cost for India per unit should be lower. But even if we assume the same price => $142 x 126 fighters = $17.892 billion


The price could go further down given that it's cheaper to build them in India and greater numbers usually mean lower prices.It's realistical to see the contract somewhere in the 16-17 billion $ figure ,i think.
 
We will only accept the best Rafales: Minister

Bengaluru, Feb 16: The Union Minister of State for Defence Rao Inderjit Singh said on Monday that India would only accept best Rafales fighters, but refused to put a timeline as to when the deal would finally come out of the ‘foggy weather.'

To a specific question from OneIndia, posed on the sidelines of the inauguration of Aero India International Seminar (Aerospace: Vision 2020), at the NIMHANS Convention Centre in Bengaluru, the minister made it categorical that the government would insist on the full transfer of technology from Dassault, the makers of Rafale.


16-1424097068-seminar1leadphotocopy.jpg



"We would like to have the 'same standard' of what is being produced in France," the minister said. He said efforts are on to thrash out the ‘pending concerns,' which according to him cannot be termed as ‘issues.' He refused to comment when asked whether one of the concerns were that of the ‘build standards' of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

As per the deal, first 18 Rafales would be built in France and the remaining 108 be produced in India. "There are no issues. When we make the aircraft at HAL they (Dassault) will have to be of the same standard manufactured by the OEM," the minister said.

He said the government was keen to give the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilots best flying machines. "Our capability of assembling these fighters may not be as good as the OEM (Rafale). But they should help HAL bring out machines matching what they make in France," Singh said. He admitted that the OEMs exporting defence equipment to India, might not part with their best technology so easily.

He said there could be some price escalation, but refused to go into the details. "Not everything can be discussed in public," he said.

To another query whether Dassault is keen to undertake the India part of manufacturing the Rafales with another company (other than HAL), the minister said the DPSU has the expertise in making modern fighters.

"HAL will continue to be the strategic production line for the aircraft as inducting another company will be difficult," he said.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/we-will-only-accept-the-best-rafales-minister-aerospace-defence-1656029.html
 

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