Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[MokshaVimukthi]

The price could go further down given that it's cheaper to build them in India and greater numbers usually mean lower prices.It's realistical to see the contract somewhere in the 16-17 billion $ figure ,i think.

That may be the price IAF pays, not the price GoI pays.

What will be the cost for HAL re-Tooling and setting p the process as per Dassault ? ........ couple of more Billion$ ? at least.

What about cost for simulators for training, support equipments, Test Jigs, LRU's etc ?

It would be in excess of 20 Billion $ easily.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

DM: Decision on Rafale on March 2015, awaiting CNC report

DM: Decision on Rafale on March 2015, awaiting CNC report

New Delhi: India will decide on the fate of a multi-billion-dollar deal to buy Rafale fighter jets from Dassault Aviation of France by early March, after the contract negotiation committee (CNC) submits its report, defence minister Manohar Parrikar said on Wednesday. Price negotiations have dragged on since 2012, when Rafale won a tender to supply 126 fighter planes for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

“I would not be able to comment on it till CNC gives me a detailed report,” Parrikar said in reply to a question. “I have told them to submit it by March... last week of February or first week of March.”

The committee is reviewing the long-term costs, called the life cycle costs, which will be incurred over the life of the plane. Parrikar said he has sought an increase in IAF fleet’s operational performance to make up for the gap.

He declined to specify the gap in the fighter jet fleet requirements, calling it a “national security” matter. When asked if the delay is upsetting foreign vendors, he replied with an anecdote, “If you go to a supermarket with your wife, you want to buy everything. Then you see your budget and monthly EMI and you only buy to the extent that is allowed in your budget. I would like to buy many jets, but I can’t spend that kind of money. There are ships, submarines for which commitments have already been made and which will come up for allocation in next year’s budget and we have to keep them,” he said. On the upcoming defence budget, he only said he only hoped that the needs of defence forces are attended to.

Decision on French fighter jet Rafale in March: Manohar Parrikar - Livemint

Defence Ministry awaiting CNC report to finalise delayed Rafale deal: Parrikar

Business Standard

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) is expected to give its final report on acquisition of French fighter plane Rafale either by end of February of early March. The decision is not being dragged by the NDA government, he assured.

"I have asked for the report and not received yet. Until the detailed report is submitted, I will not be able to comment on the multi-billion dollar aircraft acquisition deal," Parrikar told reporters at the Aero India 2015, here today.

When asked about the three-year delay when the country needs modernisation of Indian Air Force and Rafale formed important part of it, he pointed out the NDA government had come to power only ten months ago. "I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report. The CNC report is inevitable for the government to make final decision on the deal," he said.

"We are determined to strengthen our defence forces. But, we will also focus on maximising the use of the current availability of war planes. This is also important," he added.

He further added that there was no delay in the finalisation of the deal.

The defence minister also added the government is also in the process of tweaking the defence procurement policy to enable the small and medium sector enterprise get a better deal in the offset clauses. "We are aware of the problems faced by MSME sector. We also know that they can contribute handsomely to defence production and Make in India a bigger success," Parrikar said.

Defence Ministry awaiting CNC report to finalise delayed Rafale deal: Parrikar | Business Standard News

Watch French #Dassault #Rafale in Action coming in Indian Air Force

"AERO INDIA 2015" | Page 9

 

[sancho]

Not Rafale related, but shows how things work if a foreign vendor actually commit to work with HAL:

BAE Systems to debut state-of-the-art tech

BAE Systems has been in India for six decades. One of the world’s leading defence, aerospace and security companies, with more than 80,000 employees across six continents, the company makes yet another big presence in this year’s Aero India...

...An HAL partner for decades

The company has been a successful partner to India’s HAL, with which it has worked on many innovative projects over the last 60 years. “Our flagship programme in India is our partnership with HAL on the Hawk advanced jet trainer. With 123 Hawk ordered to date, India is the largest operator of the world’s most successful advanced jet training aircraft,” Brosnan said.

India ordered 66 aircraft in 2004, comprising supply of 24 Hawk aircraft in fly-away condition, and 42 aircraft built under licence by HAL, and a further 57 aircraft in 2010. BAE Systems has commenced contract negotiations with HAL on a potential order to supply products and services for the manufacture of 20 Hawk aircraft in support of the Indian Air Force’s requirement for its aerobatic team.

In addition to supporting HAL to expedite the Hawk Batch 3 order soon, the company is looking forward to assist HAL deliver future tranches of the Hawk Aircraft as well as supporting the PSU (public sector unit) with the future development of the aircraft and mid-life upgrade, and in providing long-term support to the IAF and the Indian Navy fleet.

“In addition, BAeHAL, our engineering services joint venture company with HAL, is an important demonstration of our shared commitment to investing in in-country capabilities. Over the years, BAeHAL has progressed well and built up a strong portfolio of clients such as Airbus, Rolls-Royce, British Airways and HAL itself. Very recently, the company won a contract to support Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) in the structural design optimisation of the Medium Altitude, Long Endurance (MALE) UAV,” Brosnan said...

BAE Systems to debut state-of-the-art tech

 

[Taygibay]

Not Rafale related, but shows how things work if a foreign vendor actually commit to work with HAL

So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!

Tay.

 

[sancho]

So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!

Tay.

It's not surprising that you can't see the problem Dassault has caused in this deal, with your obvious bias, but it's evident all over the media these days:

Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 20


Sorry, I can't be that ignorant as you are, since I want the best for IAF and my country of course and the wasted time in fixing this deal is simply based silly issues Dassault caused, otherwise the deal could had been fixed well before the elections.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!

Tay.

You Indignation is misguided, as much as your understanding of India.

Dassault should have closed this deal when the congress was in power. They should have kept their ears closer to the ground and understood what Nationalist parties like BJP was all about, what Modi is all about. They should have planned for the worst case scenario.

Dassault should have made some compromises and closed this deal rather than drag it and then find someone to blame.

Like I said before, French are famous for snatching defeat from the mouth of victory. There is no one to blame here or in the future.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

So by your own admission, thread derailing to further your anti-Dassault slant /drivel?
Even as Dassault execs are in India and the Mindef JYLD coming soon?
Oh, Well, at least you're consistent! Kudos, I guess!

Tay.

You really do not like ANY Praise of your rival BAE is nt it
even when they are genuinely helping us as this news suggests

Well let us hope Dassault OUT performs all its rivals in its cooperation with India

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Confident Rafale Will Win $12 Billion Indian Air Force Deal: Dassault Chief to NDTV

All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: February 18, 2015 18:32 IST

BENGALURU, INDIA:

The CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, has indicated that he is confident of winning the contract for at least 126 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force in a deal which was initially worth $12 billion or Rs. 74,400 crore and could go up to $20 billion or Rs.124,000 crore.

Speaking to NDTV at Aero India 2015 at the Yelahanka Airbase on the outskirts of Bengaluru, Mr Trappier denied reports that the life-cycle cost of the Rafale was higher than its competitors.

"We are more than confident because it's a commitment that the life cycle cost of the Rafale is entirely in line with what we gave in the answer to the RFP (Request for Proposal) and we are totally compliant with the RFP of the government of India," he said.

Earlier today, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar would not be drawn into making a definitive statement on where the Rafale deal stood. According to Mr Parrikar, "I will not comment until the Contract Negotiating Committee (CNC) gives me a detailed report on what they have dealt with." He expects this report to be made available within a few weeks.

Dassault Rafale, which is the mainstay of the French Air Force and Navy, was selected by the Air Force to meet its requirement for a state of the art multi-role fighter and was placed ahead of the Eurofighter Typhoon (built by a European consortium).

Confident Rafale Will Win $12 Billion Indian Air Force Deal: Dassault Chief to NDTV

@sancho @Abingdonboy @halloweene

initially worth $12 billion or Rs. 74,400 crore and could go up to $20 billion or Rs.124,000 crore.

Does that mean first figure of 12B $ or Rs 74400 cr is for F3 and 124,000 Cr/ 20B$ for F3R?
Strangely the word used is " at least 126" so does it mean above figures are inclusive of follow on orders?

 

[Taygibay]

with your obvious bias, but it's evident all over the media these days:

Bias goes both ways, Sancho. I see you as having it and vice-versa, then again do tabulate your number of post with it against mine and you'll see who uses it more, YVW.
I don't consider media as a source. When ( and if ) a qualified arbitration ( neutral ) using RFP and other official documents finds it to exist, I'll say I'm sorry … but not to please fanboys however.

Sorry, I can't be that ignorant as you are, since I want the best for IAF and my country of course and the wasted time in fixing this deal is simply based silly issues Dassault caused, otherwise the deal could had been fixed well before the elections.

Insult and unfounded opinion does not validate me as biased, sorry!

Tay

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Taygibay Sir

This long winding Rafale deal has really started to take a toll on
Both Indian and French defence enthusiasts

Let us hope for an early decision ; to end our misery soon

 

[Taygibay]

You Indignation is misguided, as much as your understanding of India.

Like I said before, French are famous for snatching defeat from the mouth of victory. There is no one to blame here or in the future.

This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!

As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.

Tay.

 

[topgun047]

This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!

As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.

Tay.

All the signs are pointing towards the imminent demise of Rafale deal.
France has got Egypt and other oil rich emirates to supply and and India has got Su-30 for now and FGFA for the future.
Lets call it a day and shake hands.

There was never a pressing need in India to induct a new 4th gen platform when it already had a large Su 30 fleet for high end and Mirage-2k, Mig 29 for low end.
That is, if you discount the falling squadron strength.
Since there are other, more efficient ways to address this problem, as outlined by Mr.Parrikar, this is not the issue in Rafale deal for India.

The MMRCA tender always hinged upon getting adequate benefits for Indian industry.
Since there seems to be no sign of a solution forthcoming to this logjam, it seems inevitable deal will die a natural death.
I suspected as much since 2012.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

This is illogical : I did not say anything bad against India and you blamed at France, while saying in addition that no one is to blame. Meaningless, sorry!

As for your contention that Dassault should have played the politics and used a possibly more amenable GoI to take advantage of your country, it is immoral and I would not condone it.

Tay.

Don't get me wrong. I admire France for many many reason. I have always believed France is a true friend to India. Just not the smartest strategist around.

I did not mean it as an insult to France, just an unkind observation with no malafide intent.

International arms dealing is not exactly a morally sound occupation. Its all about taking advantage of some country or the other. Its silly to pretend otherwise.

 

[sancho]

Bias goes both ways, Sancho.

Not really, since I still say Rafale as a fighter is the best choice for India, the problem I have is the delay Dassault caused that stopped this deal from being signed and the double standards they showed just to gain more own benefits. So I have no bias against Dassault, but don't ignore their mistakes just because I support the Rafale in the MMRCA.
If you like it or not is nothing that bothers me too much, but I will point to the facts, no matter if pro or con Dassault / Rafale!

 

[Taygibay]

You really do not like ANY Praise of your rival BAE is nt it
even when they are genuinely helping us as this news suggests

I'm surprised at this coming from you Stephen as I am that you read that in my message. I have no bug with BAe and I am glad if India gets good treatment from it.
The only problem is that proper performance by it on a given tender has nothing to do with the unsubstantiated rumors on Dassault's part in the MMRCA.

Let me then be clear : I would have no problem with any corporation having won and completed the MMRCA in say 4 months. I even hope that sooner than later India will make its own fighters world best and exports them. But I won't say that the LCA is better than the F-35 ( not a Dassault product but a BAe one ) because it is not true, that's all!

Remember my answer to your query last week? I termed it as incomplete on all things that I could not prove. Not to avoid answering you but to avoid answering you incorrectly. I even added that someone else would have a better answer to offer. If you cannot get it that I rely on facts and not on hearsay, I'll just refuse to answer from now on … because it would be meaningless to do so?

Good day nonetheless, Tay.

@MokshaVimukthi OK, I'll accept that … hoping that if I had said India was known to mess up procurements ( which I did not yet but read countless times on foreign fora ) you'd take it as lightly?
100% agreed on your comment about immorality of arms sales ( Egypt/Raf included up to a point ); I twisted internally at the naiveness of it as I wrote. But one can wish for better practices to spring up eventually says the eternal optimist!

I wrote on my blog about colonialism after having been asked by a fellow forumer. The piece was lauded by people from ex-colonies and snubbed and attacks by my own Western "supposed brothers". I don't feel I have to defend my impartiality on most subjects. I am not racist or anything like that either.

But you're allowed to see me as you want.
No harsh feelings, Tay.