Donatello
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Is there the actual RFP document available? Would be good to see what conditions have been outlined by India.
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]
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halloweene
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Of course not 
PARIKRAMA
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MMRCA RFP to blame for delay?
Three years after the Indian government picked France’s Dassault Aviation to supply 126 of its Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force and countless rounds of negotiations over the final contract, it’s still all tunnel and no light at the end of it. While Dassault has been tightlipped about what’s causing the delay, Indian officials have from time to time let it be known that price and guarantees are holding the deal up.
Now, this newspaper has learnt that the “cost escalation” maybe as much due to an Indian “self-goal” as to the French trying to milk the deal for all it’s worth after having quoted the lowest price among six competitors.
The original Indian Request for Proposal (RFP) for the IAF’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract did not take into account over 60 items, the costs of which added up as contract negotiations proceeded, knowledgeable sources who have observed the origins and the trajectory of the told this newspaper. The MMRCA contract is the first time the defence ministry is attempting to do life-cycle costing for a large acquisition, in addition to writing in the costs for technology transfer and working in offsets. Given the complexity, that exercise has been botched up, the sources said.
The initial estimate for 126 fighters was $10.4 billion. Now, it’s more like $18-20 billion officially, but as high as $27-30 billion, if sources are to be believed. The $18-20 billion figure would probably be reached just by taking currency value changes and inflation into account. At those rates, we are talking about paying anywhere from Rs 800 crore to Rs 1,000 crore per aircraft.
With perhaps more to shell out for mid-life upgrades that would be due for the Rafale less than a decade from the time deliveries start.
But the price by itself astronomical though it maybe is not the biggest obstacle to signing the deal, sources said. It is the government’s insistence that Dassault take responsibility for the quality and timeline of the 108 fighters that HAL would produce under the deal, and not just for the 18 that the French company will supply in flyaway condition (Dassault is also said to be insisting that India agree to a 42 direct supply-84 by HAL mix).
“I cannot see how this can be resolved. No Indian government can sign a deal that absolves the vendor of all responsibility, that too after having paid such a humongous sum of money. And Dassault cannot agree to take responsibility for what HAL does, especially given that doubts have been expressed over HAL’s ability to do the project”, said a retired Air Marshal of the IAF.
MMRCA RFP to blame for delay? | The Asian Age
Three years after the Indian government picked France’s Dassault Aviation to supply 126 of its Rafale fighters to the Indian Air Force and countless rounds of negotiations over the final contract, it’s still all tunnel and no light at the end of it. While Dassault has been tightlipped about what’s causing the delay, Indian officials have from time to time let it be known that price and guarantees are holding the deal up.
Now, this newspaper has learnt that the “cost escalation” maybe as much due to an Indian “self-goal” as to the French trying to milk the deal for all it’s worth after having quoted the lowest price among six competitors.
The original Indian Request for Proposal (RFP) for the IAF’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract did not take into account over 60 items, the costs of which added up as contract negotiations proceeded, knowledgeable sources who have observed the origins and the trajectory of the told this newspaper. The MMRCA contract is the first time the defence ministry is attempting to do life-cycle costing for a large acquisition, in addition to writing in the costs for technology transfer and working in offsets. Given the complexity, that exercise has been botched up, the sources said.
The initial estimate for 126 fighters was $10.4 billion. Now, it’s more like $18-20 billion officially, but as high as $27-30 billion, if sources are to be believed. The $18-20 billion figure would probably be reached just by taking currency value changes and inflation into account. At those rates, we are talking about paying anywhere from Rs 800 crore to Rs 1,000 crore per aircraft.
With perhaps more to shell out for mid-life upgrades that would be due for the Rafale less than a decade from the time deliveries start.
But the price by itself astronomical though it maybe is not the biggest obstacle to signing the deal, sources said. It is the government’s insistence that Dassault take responsibility for the quality and timeline of the 108 fighters that HAL would produce under the deal, and not just for the 18 that the French company will supply in flyaway condition (Dassault is also said to be insisting that India agree to a 42 direct supply-84 by HAL mix).
“I cannot see how this can be resolved. No Indian government can sign a deal that absolves the vendor of all responsibility, that too after having paid such a humongous sum of money. And Dassault cannot agree to take responsibility for what HAL does, especially given that doubts have been expressed over HAL’s ability to do the project”, said a retired Air Marshal of the IAF.
MMRCA RFP to blame for delay? | The Asian Age
MokshaVimukthi
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The Horse is dead. Stop flogging it. 
帅的一匹
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the problem is time! you don't have time sir.
MokshaVimukthi
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shontumontu
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The real indication of the rafale India deal getting scuttled was the Egypt deal.
It was partly financed by France. That was an indication of just how desperate they were to let the Arab air forces play with rafale and let their hands on a few operational rafales to get them interested.
That was indication of the surety of the indo rafale deal not working out and hence the next stage of hardselling to Arab states.
Libya strikes for the second time were for the Egyptians and qtaris.
Oh well...at least I'm glad that Anthony didn't sign it. Maybe willingly. Maybe to his credit.
It was partly financed by France. That was an indication of just how desperate they were to let the Arab air forces play with rafale and let their hands on a few operational rafales to get them interested.
That was indication of the surety of the indo rafale deal not working out and hence the next stage of hardselling to Arab states.
Libya strikes for the second time were for the Egyptians and qtaris.
Oh well...at least I'm glad that Anthony didn't sign it. Maybe willingly. Maybe to his credit.
CONNAN
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Rafale deal: Dassault says no change in pricing
Bengaluru: Confident of signing the much delayed USD 10 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets with India "soon", French Defence major Dassault Thursday said its pricing remains the same from day one and it has not wavered from the request for proposal (RPF).
It also said an empowered team has already arrived in India and carried forward the talks as decided by the Defence Ministers of the two countries in December.
"The pricing issue is very clear. Our pricing remains the same from day one of LI (Lowest bidder). So there has been no change on that front," Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier said.
Asked about claims that Dassault is not willing to stand guarantee for the 108 jets to be made by state-run HAL here, Trappier denied there was any deviation from what the RFP said.
"We are exactly in line with our answer to (Request for Proposal (RFP). This answer led the government of India to select L1 which was Rafale. And we have stuck to the same commitment which is totally in line and compliant with the RFP," he told PTI here.
Trappier, who is here to take part in the Aero India air show, stressed that his firm is convinced that it is totally in line with the RFP.
[...]
Egypt deal
Dassault had this week signed a $5.9 billion deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale jets. This pricing is much higher than the $10 billion for the 126 jets that it has to provide India.
This increased fears in Indian defence circles that the cost of Rafale deal with India will also go high.
Asked about the price hike, Trappier said, “There is none. Don’t forget what has been published in regard to Egypt contracts for 24 aircraft, frigates and missiles for the frigates. It is not only aircraft,” he said.
When Dassault was first selected in 2012, India was to be Dassault’s first country of export.
Each country has its own way of negotiating. There was a very strong requirement from Egypt and we were able to make quickly to their strong requirement,” The Dassault CEO said.
“As far as India is concerned, we have been committed to IAF and Indian government for a very long time,” he said adding that negotiations are always a difficult job.
He said Dassault and HAL have had good negotiations and both now have a “good understanding” about the work share and who is manufacturing what.
Asked how soon he hoped the deal would be inked, Trappier said it was up to the Indian government.
“It is their time schedule. We are totally committed to speed up the process if we can. We are working totally transparent with the MOD,” he said.
The Dassault CEO said work is going on in the right direction.
“We are very fond of getting the deal itself so we start investing in India and begin work on the project in tune with Make in India policy of the government here,” he said.
"We understand it is taking time because it is a huge deal to negotiate.... I am confident that we should see the deal to be on very soon,” the CEO said
Rafale deal: Dassault says no change in pricing - The Economic Times
Bengaluru: Confident of signing the much delayed USD 10 billion contract for Rafale fighter jets with India "soon", French Defence major Dassault Thursday said its pricing remains the same from day one and it has not wavered from the request for proposal (RPF).
It also said an empowered team has already arrived in India and carried forward the talks as decided by the Defence Ministers of the two countries in December.
"The pricing issue is very clear. Our pricing remains the same from day one of LI (Lowest bidder). So there has been no change on that front," Dassault Aviation CEO Eric Trappier said.
Asked about claims that Dassault is not willing to stand guarantee for the 108 jets to be made by state-run HAL here, Trappier denied there was any deviation from what the RFP said.
"We are exactly in line with our answer to (Request for Proposal (RFP). This answer led the government of India to select L1 which was Rafale. And we have stuck to the same commitment which is totally in line and compliant with the RFP," he told PTI here.
Trappier, who is here to take part in the Aero India air show, stressed that his firm is convinced that it is totally in line with the RFP.
[...]
Egypt deal
Dassault had this week signed a $5.9 billion deal with Egypt for 24 Rafale jets. This pricing is much higher than the $10 billion for the 126 jets that it has to provide India.
This increased fears in Indian defence circles that the cost of Rafale deal with India will also go high.
Asked about the price hike, Trappier said, “There is none. Don’t forget what has been published in regard to Egypt contracts for 24 aircraft, frigates and missiles for the frigates. It is not only aircraft,” he said.
When Dassault was first selected in 2012, India was to be Dassault’s first country of export.
Each country has its own way of negotiating. There was a very strong requirement from Egypt and we were able to make quickly to their strong requirement,” The Dassault CEO said.
“As far as India is concerned, we have been committed to IAF and Indian government for a very long time,” he said adding that negotiations are always a difficult job.
He said Dassault and HAL have had good negotiations and both now have a “good understanding” about the work share and who is manufacturing what.
Asked how soon he hoped the deal would be inked, Trappier said it was up to the Indian government.
“It is their time schedule. We are totally committed to speed up the process if we can. We are working totally transparent with the MOD,” he said.
The Dassault CEO said work is going on in the right direction.
“We are very fond of getting the deal itself so we start investing in India and begin work on the project in tune with Make in India policy of the government here,” he said.
"We understand it is taking time because it is a huge deal to negotiate.... I am confident that we should see the deal to be on very soon,” the CEO said
Rafale deal: Dassault says no change in pricing - The Economic Times
帅的一匹
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you are so lucky that we don't. Modi has confidence in China that's why he afford to cancel the deal.Why ? are you planing to attack us ?
Echo_419
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PARIKRAMA
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Some Russian Views/Propaganda and "expert" opinions !!!
Is Rafale deal collapsing? Experts offer alternatives
Amid speculation in the Indian media about India planning to abandon its plan to purchase 126 Rafale multi-role fighter jets, Russian experts analyse reasons for possible rejection of the prized deal and outline viable alternatives that will effectively meet the needs of the country’s military apparatus.
The French fighter jet Rafale was chosen by India’s Ministry of Defence through the tender for an MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), which resulted in the planned purchase of 126 aircraft at a cost of $10 billion. Besides Rafale, the fighter jets Typhoon, developed by the EADS Concern, the Gripen by the Swedish company SAAB, the American F-16 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the Russian MiG-35 were other contenders which participated in the tender.
The Rafale won, reportedly due to the lower purchase price of the aircraft. However, later it turned out that the life cycle cost of the French fighter would be much higher, and the final price of the contract for 126 jets threatened to exceed $20 billion.
“At the moment, the situation has not been developing in the best way for the Indian Air Force,” Konstantin Makienko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), told Lenta.ru in a recent interview. “Even if the contract to supply the Rafale is eventually concluded, it threatens to entail enormous costs for India – about $20 billion, and possibly more, while the fleet would turn out to be obsolete upon delivery. In 2015, choosing a fourth generation platform can only be looked at as an interim solution. The long-term goal must be a fifth-generation platform.”
In an interview with TASS, Dmitry Shugaev, deputy director of the state corporation Rostec, said that, first of all, the most important reason for India’s possible refusal to buy the Rafale is connected with the reluctance of France to sell its technologies.
“Today, simply selling a particular product in India is rather problematic – as the country also wants to set up joint ventures and joint laboratories,” said Shugaev. “All want to have modern weapons, weapons of the new generation, they all want new technologies – this being a global trend.”
The high price, and to some extent, the refusal to transfer production technologies, as well as the now undermined reputation of France in its deal with Russia for the supply of the Mistral ships, may all be reasons for India to abandon its contract for the purchase of the Rafale fighter – in favour of the Russian Su-30MKI, military expert Victor Murakhovsky mentioned in an interview with the portal russianpulse.ru.
"First of all, this fighter jet is really overpriced. Secondly, the French would not agree to transfer some of their technologies, which would allow for partial assembly, and then the subsequent production of components at Indian companies,” said the expert. “Moscow has proposed a modernised version of the Su-30MKI, in which a significant proportion of components would be produced in India, and in the future, assembly would be organised at Indian aviation companies. This interested the new government, including the new defence minister.”
What is the alternative to Rafale?
That is a lot to digest . But some are good lines to wonder like
“the French company is very unyielding, even, perhaps one could say, an arrogant partner
or
While the IAF might be interested in getting a new aircraft model, the Indian aircraft manufacturer, the HAL Company, feels comfortable in the Sukhoi/Irkutsk technological environment, to which it became accustomed to during the development of production facilities for the Su-30MKI and their gradual localisation.
i like reading "expert" views .. LOL
@sancho @Abingdonboy
@halloweene : I am sure you would love to hear such Opinions... especially when russians feel Dassault is unyielding and arrogant types..
Is Rafale deal collapsing? Experts offer alternatives
Amid speculation in the Indian media about India planning to abandon its plan to purchase 126 Rafale multi-role fighter jets, Russian experts analyse reasons for possible rejection of the prized deal and outline viable alternatives that will effectively meet the needs of the country’s military apparatus.
The French fighter jet Rafale was chosen by India’s Ministry of Defence through the tender for an MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), which resulted in the planned purchase of 126 aircraft at a cost of $10 billion. Besides Rafale, the fighter jets Typhoon, developed by the EADS Concern, the Gripen by the Swedish company SAAB, the American F-16 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the Russian MiG-35 were other contenders which participated in the tender.
The Rafale won, reportedly due to the lower purchase price of the aircraft. However, later it turned out that the life cycle cost of the French fighter would be much higher, and the final price of the contract for 126 jets threatened to exceed $20 billion.
- The main reason for the possible refusal of India to buy the Rafale has been the price of the entire deal.
- Moreover, experts stressed that the French were willing to sell only ready-made machines, with technology transfer being out of the question.
- Another factor that could adversely impact the Rafale sale to India was the unpredictability of the French in performing their contractual obligations, given the recent failure to deliver the Mistral to Russia.
“At the moment, the situation has not been developing in the best way for the Indian Air Force,” Konstantin Makienko, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), told Lenta.ru in a recent interview. “Even if the contract to supply the Rafale is eventually concluded, it threatens to entail enormous costs for India – about $20 billion, and possibly more, while the fleet would turn out to be obsolete upon delivery. In 2015, choosing a fourth generation platform can only be looked at as an interim solution. The long-term goal must be a fifth-generation platform.”
In an interview with TASS, Dmitry Shugaev, deputy director of the state corporation Rostec, said that, first of all, the most important reason for India’s possible refusal to buy the Rafale is connected with the reluctance of France to sell its technologies.
“Today, simply selling a particular product in India is rather problematic – as the country also wants to set up joint ventures and joint laboratories,” said Shugaev. “All want to have modern weapons, weapons of the new generation, they all want new technologies – this being a global trend.”
The high price, and to some extent, the refusal to transfer production technologies, as well as the now undermined reputation of France in its deal with Russia for the supply of the Mistral ships, may all be reasons for India to abandon its contract for the purchase of the Rafale fighter – in favour of the Russian Su-30MKI, military expert Victor Murakhovsky mentioned in an interview with the portal russianpulse.ru.
"First of all, this fighter jet is really overpriced. Secondly, the French would not agree to transfer some of their technologies, which would allow for partial assembly, and then the subsequent production of components at Indian companies,” said the expert. “Moscow has proposed a modernised version of the Su-30MKI, in which a significant proportion of components would be produced in India, and in the future, assembly would be organised at Indian aviation companies. This interested the new government, including the new defence minister.”
- The expert also believes that the key reason in the possible rejection of the Rafale, is India’s demands for technology transfer and a technical change in the appearance of the aircraft, including using equipment produced in India.
- Secondly, he says, there are the difficulties associated with the Dassault Aviation Company – “the French company is very unyielding, even, perhaps one could say, an arrogant partner, something which has already created a lot of problems for this firm”.
- Thirdly, the expert mentioned the difficulty at reaching an agreement on the price. “The Indians are very tough negotiators, pushing the seller to reduce his prices, but Dassault, for its part, is not inclined to give in, and as time goes on, the prices keep going up.”
- Finally, according to him, there is a significant difference in the approaches used by the Indian Air Force and that country’s manufacturing sector. While the IAF might be interested in getting a new aircraft model, the Indian aircraft manufacturer, the HAL Company, feels comfortable in the Sukhoi/Irkutsk technological environment, to which it became accustomed to during the development of production facilities for the Su-30MKI and their gradual localisation.
What is the alternative to Rafale?
- A key element in any alternative solution, says Makienko, should be the abolition of the actual MMRCA tender, which today has lost all military and technological sense.
- After that, a “binary option” is possible: First of all, India must close the ‘“window” to prevent its Air Force from lagging behind.
- They can do this by purchasing 60-70 Su-30MKI aircraft, supplemented by additional MiG-29s from the MiG Corporation, in the new UPG configuration, and not the modernised old machines, but airplanes of a new construction, as well as the acquisition of some second-hand Mirage-2000s, for example, from the UAE.
- This will allow the country to solve its problem in the “here and now”, at a cost of about $10 billion.
- In the future, the Russian expert argues that India needs, in addition to the FGFA project, to come to grips with a light/medium fifth-generation fighter (AMCA), possibly making this an international undertaking.
That is a lot to digest . But some are good lines to wonder like
“the French company is very unyielding, even, perhaps one could say, an arrogant partner
or
While the IAF might be interested in getting a new aircraft model, the Indian aircraft manufacturer, the HAL Company, feels comfortable in the Sukhoi/Irkutsk technological environment, to which it became accustomed to during the development of production facilities for the Su-30MKI and their gradual localisation.
i like reading "expert" views .. LOL
@sancho @Abingdonboy
@halloweene : I am sure you would love to hear such Opinions... especially when russians feel Dassault is unyielding and arrogant types..
Echo_419
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Nope we have strong confidence in China that it will not destroy it's hard work of 30 years & let the West dominate it again by starting a meaning less war with India
MokshaVimukthi
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LOL. Modi has confidence in India ...... he knows how to deal with china.
Shub Shub Bol oye
I am a fan of Rafale, not of this deal. I will be happy if this deal dies its natural death.
sancho
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RFP not, the DDP 2006 which is the base for the RFP is publically available and it's actually pretty clear:
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 13
Now that's interesting, the Air Chief showing some balls!
That's not only countering the DM and additional MKIs, but basically inviting the EF as an option!
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