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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

If hat would be the case, he only would had supported the DM instead of countering him, because that would increase pressure on Dassault, without bringing up the choice of another MMRCA and without stating that it doesn't needs to be Rafale, but an MMRCA.
He chose his words for a reason and he made it clear that Rafale remains the prefered choice, but that even IAF is starting to think about other ways.

No IAF chief can publicly counter the DM :disagree: ........ that is just a figment of your immagination.

IAF preferred choice has been known for a LONG time now. Its only now the IAF is realizing the Nations choice.
 
Paveway IV is a good bomb (btw a EPII mounted on a UK bomb body) but is nowhere close to the capabilities of AASM. It is not only a pb of range, but also of flight domain used for release. Why do you think it was recently tested in the USA on a F-16 to check compatibility with US interface?
Brimstone is a fine (although expensive ) antitank missile. Better for low collateral damage than AASM, clearly. I guess that is the reason why we are integrating guided rockets...
Rafale is moving also. Not on spectacular things, but very useful : new radar modes, sharing data from sensors, new version of Spectra, deported antennas and GaN modules for RBE2 etc.
When Captor will be fielded (and btw the export version will be downgraded according to Scorpion), France will be on the verge to integrate smart skin GaN radar...
 
Why do you think it was recently tested in the USA on a F-16 to check compatibility with US interface?

Because Sagem is desperate to sell it, because it has to close the production line otherwise.

Rafale is moving also. Not on spectacular things, but very useful

The addition of 2 MICA at the external wingstations is movement too and Dassaults PR department made some nice pics and called it fully loaded, but it actually doesn't make any difference, since it's "only" 2 more MICA. Neither can the Rafale carry more METEOR in A2A, nor any additional strike loads in that config. The final development and integration of the rocket pod for CAS, the AASM 125 for SEAD, or the AASM 1000 for heavy precision strikes would all had more impact on the operational capabilities of Rafale, than some more radar or IFF modes. But even if those are under consideration for years, none of them seems to come in the F3R right? While that was the advantage of Rafale in the past, fast further development of the operational capabilities of the fighter, by adding more capabilities.
The upgrades SPECTRA might be the only part of the F3R, than can make a difference, a part of the Talios of course, but the rest are only minor modifications and not even useful for most export customers.

When Captor will be fielded (and btw the export version will be downgraded according to Scorpion), France will be on the verge to integrate smart skin GaN radar...

That's exactly like the EF supporters said, that they are on the verge of getting the AESA, although that was never funded. But we both know that any credible upgrade for the RBE 2 AESA (GaN, side arrays) will come only with the MLU and that's a decade away, while the export AESA of the EF is offered for fighters around 2018. And even if it's downgraded (in whatever way), it will remain to have longer detection range and a wider field of view, just because of the size and swashplate advantage.
 
please stop discussing sukhoi in this thread.... i nominate this thread for worst moderation award!
indeed indians are really close to the hearts of mods... :tup:
 
AERO INDIA: HAL defends ability to produce Rafale fighter

Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) chairman T Suvarnaraju has hit back at reports that an Indian deal to obtain 126 Dassault Rafale fighters is being held up by French concerns about the Indian manufacturer’s quality standards.

Suvaranraju was addressing the media at the Aero India show in Bengaluru, where local journalists have shown great interest in the Rafale programme and the HAL’s helicopter businesses.

Suvarnaraju stressed his faith in HAL’s products, adding that it produces components and structures for a number of major aircraft types, such as the forward doors for the Airbus A320 and the gun bay doors and wire harnesses for the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. The company has also worked on Boeing’s commercial programmes, including the 737 and 777, he said, and pointed to its long record in license-producing types such as the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, BAE Systems Hawk and Dornier 228.

Nonetheless, Suvarnaraju declines to confirm or deny persistent reports that Dassault is dubious about guaranteeing fighters produced by HAL. Under the original terms of the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, the first 18 Rafales are to be produced in France, and the subsequent 108 in India by HAL.

getasset.aspx


Aaron Chong/Flightglobal

Dassault, which has the largest international presence at the show, also declines to comment on the status of its MMRCA negotiations, which have dragged on for four years following the Rafale’s selection in 2011.

Suvarnaraju also defended the reputation of the company’s Dhruv advanced light helicopter following recent crashes of the type in Ecuador and India. He says the reasons for the incidents are yet to be ascertained.

HAL says it is moving forward with plans for a factory to produce the planned light utility helicopter and naval multi-role helicopter for India's armed forces. The company has secured 610 acres of land in India’s Karnataka province where it will build production facilities with the capability to produce helicopter engines, aerostructures and other systems.

In a separate press conference, Indian air force Air Marshal Arup Raha said that obsolescence in the service’s Mikoyan MiG-21 fleet means that obtaining the Rafale is an urgent priority for the service. He declined to respond to questions about what the air force will do if negotiations over the MMRCA programme between Dassault and India’s defence ministry fall through.

AERO INDIA: HAL defends ability to produce Rafale fighter - 2/19/2015 - Flight Global
 
According to Raha, three of its subcommittees have already concluded their work. “Issues are being resolved by the fourth committee dealing with contracts,” said Raha. The final report is expected in a fortnight.

An Indian defense official confirmed to AIN previous reports that the contract was held up by the liability clause that makes Dassault responsible for any mishaps.

It is likely HAL could agree to share the liability along with Dassault, AIN has learned.

Aerospace Diary: Rafale’s Prospects Discussed By Top Indian Officials

@Abingdonboy @sancho @Stephen Cohen @halloweene @DrSomnath999 @CONNAN


If the liability is shared, then i guess there wont be any more hiccups left or we can expect new things...

@halloweene : By any chance you have heard anything on this about liability sharing..
 
If the liability is shared, then i guess there wont be any more hiccups left or we can expect new things...

It's the performance guarantee for the licence produced Rafales, that is the problem now, since Dassault is only ready to guarantee that for the first 18 and wants to divert the responsibility for the full 108 on HAL only. But the DDP says, that the OEM (Dassault), has to guarantee the performance of the product at the production agency (HAL) / end customer (IAF).

Aero India 2015: Indian Air Force chief adds to MMRCA confusion

India's Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha has added to the prevailing confusion over the purchase of 126 Dassault Rafale fighters by the Indian Air Force (IAF)...

...Addressing a press conference at Aero India 2015 on 19 February, ACM Raha said that to make up for fast depleting fighter numbers it was important for the IAF to swiftly induct a platform for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) requirement, but it did not "specifically" have to be the Rafale

"It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," the IAF chief said...

...The air chief's remarks, however, further fuelled speculation that the deal for 126 Rafales to meet the MMRCA requirement could well be on the rocks.

The purchase is reportedly deadlocked over Dassault's refusal to take responsibility for the 108 Rafales that the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is to licence produce in accordance with the 2007 MMRCA tender. Eighteen of 126 aircraft are to be acquired in flyaway condition...

...This impasse prompted Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to say recently that the IAF could acquire additional licence-built Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters if the Rafale deal fell through.

ACM Raha, however, disagreed with Parrikar and said that additional Su-30s were not an acceptable substitute for the MMRCA requirement.

"They are different types of aircraft and cannot replace each other; they only complement each other," he said...

Aero India 2015: Indian Air Force chief adds to MMRCA confusion - IHS Jane's 360

Major breakthrough in India for the Rafale SNECMA and HAL agreed to create a joint venture to produce engine parts M-88

An important despatch and welcome just fell Snecma (Safran) and HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) have signed an agreement in principle (Memory of Understanding) to create a joint venture to produce parts of the M-88 engine.

This property, which does not measure less than 30 000 m2, will be responsible for the production of high-tech parts for engines of future Indian Rafale.

For 60 years, the subsidiaries of SAFRAN is present in India. The group will already employs 2,600 highly qualified people, with an increase of 30% per year of the workforce for 10 years...

Google Übersetzer


halloween's article on the Snecma / HAL JV
 
From my sources in BR after their recent gathering in Bangalore these are the points which is causing the delay

India is insisting that France's Dassault Aviation take full responsibility for the production of the aircraft at a state-ran facility in Bangalore under the 2012 bid offer

France has said it will help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to delivery schedules, but that it cannot give guarantees for production of the aircraft made at a facility over which it has no administrative or expert control.

But three years on, the sides are far from signing the contract and an Indian defence source said price negotiations were on hold until the issue of licensed production was resolved in line with the original request for proposals (RFP) floated by the Indian defence ministry.

French concerns that Indian military procurement authorities may impose conditions on the manufacture of the Rafale in addition to guarantees already given to Hindustan Aeronautics.

Both sides are keen to reach a conclusion before Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.

like I said in another thread lets wait till Modis visit to France in April
 
From my sources in BR after their recent gathering in Bangalore these are the points which is causing the delay

India is insisting that France's Dassault Aviation take full responsibility for the production of the aircraft at a state-ran facility in Bangalore under the 2012 bid offer

France has said it will help Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd stick to delivery schedules, but that it cannot give guarantees for production of the aircraft made at a facility over which it has no administrative or expert control.

But three years on, the sides are far from signing the contract and an Indian defence source said price negotiations were on hold until the issue of licensed production was resolved in line with the original request for proposals (RFP) floated by the Indian defence ministry.

French concerns that Indian military procurement authorities may impose conditions on the manufacture of the Rafale in addition to guarantees already given to Hindustan Aeronautics.

Both sides are keen to reach a conclusion before Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in April.

like I said in another thread lets wait till Modis visit to France in April

Source please! Btw, does Modi vist France or Germany first?
 
Source please! Btw, does Modi vist France or Germany first?

Its from Bharath rakshak 2015 Aero india Bangalore meet and DF I meeting with Sauruv Jha just member discussions i was in phone with shiv i couldnt able to attend BR meet this year

I think Modi will visit France first
 
France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India

Visitors look at a scale model of a Dassault Rafale multi-role combat fighter jet during the Aero India 2015 air show at Yelahanka Airforce Station in Bangalore on February 20, 2015

New Delhi (AFP) - France's defence minister will visit New Delhi this week in a fresh bid to nail a troubled deal to sell 126 Rafale fighter jets which has been snagged for three years and now faces new questions about its cost.

Jean-Yves Le Drian will meet his counterpart Manohar Parrikar and other officials on Monday and Tuesday to prevent the sale's collapse ahead of an upcoming visit to Paris by India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

French company Dassault Aviation won the right in January 2012 to enter exclusive negotiations with India to supply 126 Rafale fighters, with experts saying a final deal could be worth $12 billion.

The idea is for Dassault to supply 18 of the twin-engine fighters later this year while the remaining 108 would be made by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd under technology transfer agreements with India.

But negotiations have proved fraught, both under Modi's government and its Congress predecessor, while a committee which is looking into the deal has reportedly found that it was not the cheapest option.

France's defence ministry has said the visit will give the governments a chance to discuss "international affairs and defence industry issues", but there is little doubt Rafale will dominate proceedings.

Le Drian's visit comes barely two months after he also came to India for talks with Parrikar when they both agreed to push on with negotiations.

Modi's right-wing government, which won power in elections last May, has been blowing hot and cold about the progress of discussions.

A defence ministry spokesman said during Le Drian's visit in December that outstanding differences "would be resolved in a fast-track manner".



- Doubts over costs -



But the government has also commissioned a report about the project costs, adding yet more uncertainty.

Speaking at an air show in Bangalore last week, Parrikar said he expected the contract negotiation committee (CNC) to submit its report within weeks.

"I have asked the CNC to speed up the process of completion of the report for us to take a decision on the acquisition of Rafale," he told reporters.

India's Business Standard newspaper reported earlier this month that the committee had found the Rafale proposal was in fact more expensive than a rival one by Eurofighter for its Typhoon jets.

The paper quoted defence ministry sources as saying the Rafale deal was "effectively dead" although the Indian top brass is still publicly backing it.

If the deal were to collapse, it would be a huge embarrassment for the French government, which is preparing to welcome Modi for his first visit to Europe as premier in April.

Dassault was able to celebrate the signing of a purchase agreement with Egypt last Monday for 24 Rafales, the first foreign sale of the fighters.

While the company's chief executive Eric Trappier has acknowledged the Indian negotiations have taken longer than expected, he told France's Les Echos financial daily recently that "we are not particularly worried".

One of the main sticking points has been over who should carry the can for any problems with the 108 planes that would be made in India, with the government in Delhi wanting guarantees from Dassault.

Dassault however has baulked at the idea of taking responsibility for the larger Indian-made batch of fighters.

India, which has long been the world's largest buyer of defence equipment, is in the midst of a multi-billion-dollar upgrade of ageing hardware, and recently lifted a cap on foreign investment in defence.

While his government has pledged to push forward with purchases which stalled under Congress, Modi wants to end India's status as the world's number one defence importer and to have 70 percent of hardware manufactured domestically by the turn of the decade.

With clouds hanging over the Rafale deal, there have been reports India could instead buy more Russian-made Sukhoi jets.

But the head of the Indian air force said that the Sukhois had different capabilities and could not be seen as a like-for-like replacement, as he called for the Rafale deal to be expedited.

"Rafale has been selected as L1 (lowest bidder)," Arup Raha said in Bangalore.

"It is important that we have the MMRCA (Rafale) and we need to have it in the quickest possible time".

Raha insisted no alternative plan was being considered at the moment but did not rule one out for the future.

"No, we don't have a Plan B as of now. We are only working on Plan A," he said.

France in new bid to nail fighter jet deal with India - Business Insider
 

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