Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Taygibay]

India's alternate name of Bharat is named after a mythical warrior of great strength. Bharati is a girl's name. They are not related in anyway.

The right word for Indians is Bharatiya for singular and Bharatiyon in plural. Using Bharati is the equivalent of saying Frenchie or Ruskie or Jap. It's not derogatory anywhere else except PDF. I know you weren't being insulting, just FYI.

Well, when you concentrate on facts, you are very useful!!!
Thanks for that comprehensive answer! Yes, I had conflated
Bharat the land/Bharat the legend/ & Bharati the goddess.

Bharatiyon it is hence then ( plus, it rings very ancient Greek ).

@Dash There might be the long run aspect to pushing for more.
For geo-strategic reasons, an extended partnership might work well.
In fact, it is already a bit late.

Thanks and have a good night both, Tay.

P.S. Yup Abingdon mate, I had refrained not to overdo it but that too!

 

[Abingdonboy]

There's no loss of time because 36 jets will be purchased from French lines directly. Earlier it was 18 jets.

How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).

It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.

The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?

Qatar?

Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?

It seems India is late, perhaps too late.

 

[randomradio]

How can there be no loss of time? Every day delayed results in a proportional delay in delivery- a 6 month delay now will result in an addtional 12 months the IAF has to wait for their Rafale (6+6). However the only way this would not be the case would be if there was an agreement with France for example, It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018. Now if this is the case then I agree with you, but if not MP can't afford to d*ck around (as he appears to be doing).

According to the original MMRCA deal, we should have received the first squadron in 2018-19 and the first HAL jet in 2019-20, with full squadron by 2020-21. It's pretty much the same schedule under GTG, a lot quicker, because the next 18 are also coming in from France. Now MII jets should start coming in by 2019. So it's actually a lot faster than before.

With Dassault in control, production can be expanded by another 20-30%. So overall, it's a lot better than MMRCA even with delays.

Of course, according to Modi's initial deal, all 36 jets would have come by 2018-19, but that's not to be.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.

The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?

Qatar?

Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?

It seems India is late, perhaps too late.

These were my fears

Of course, according to Modi's initial deal, all 36 jets would have come by 2018-19, but that's not to be.

So when will these 36 start coming to India? It is clear India has blown the opportunity to get them within 2018 thanks to Parrikar.

Now MII jets should start coming in by 2019. So it's actually a lot faster than before.

Made in India Rafales by 2019? I don't see how that is possible, the MII deal isn't even signed yet, it will take another 3-4 years to set up the plant in India and then another 2-3 years to churn out the first jet. Realistically speaking, the first MII Rafale will only be in service by 2025.

@PARIKRAMA any idea on the MII production timelines?

 

[randomradio]

It is an old post: I had the feeling that such an agreement was part of the deal with MODI. " if the signature is before the end of the year (2015!) you will get your plane mid 2018 (2015 +3 years) because we are confident on you and we begin to build your plane now.

The agreement was extended to january 2016 to allow for the signature during the Hollande visit for India’s Republic Day celebrations. But now? We are building the plane, but perhaps some other country would be pleased to have them?

Qatar?

Perhaps it explains why there is discussion with Egypt for 12 more Rafale?

It seems India is late, perhaps too late.

Out of the 27, maybe, aircraft to be delivered in 2018, I'm sure we can manage 4-6 aircraft for IAF. In fact, I don't think Qatar and Egypt can absorb more than 6 each per year. And France is yet to budget for more Rafales after 2019.

So when will these 36 start coming to India? It is clear India has blown the opportunity to get them within 2018 thanks to Parrikar.

It is possible from 2018 itself. France may not take any jets in 2018. And all the jets are pretty much the same standard.

Made in India Rafales by 2019? I don't see how that is possible, the MII deal isn't even signed yet, it will take another 3-4 years to set up the plant in India and then another 2-3 years to churn out the first jet. Realistically speaking, the first MII Rafale will only be in service by 2025.

The date can slip by a year or two at best. We won't be making it from scratch in India in the beginning, we will be assembling kits while the main production line is built. At least 30 of those jets will be in kits, they can start CKD delivery by 2019-20. 60 jets would have increased local content, with the last 2 squadrons with high local content.

 

[Abingdonboy]

sometimes our leaders try too hard to shown them self as best ever minister and this seems to be the case of MP. despite being an educated minister he has made many goof up with his tongue too and now this criminal delays again

NEW DELHI: Last Tuesday's Cabinet reshuffle happened out of a Prime Minister-led two-month long assessment process that ranked ministers and ministries, and also a talent selection process that vetted several MPs before picking 19 for induction in the council of ministers.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Parrikar has lofty political ambitions, you can bet he is feeling the heat from this kind of scrutiny. This, in part, explains his eagerness to project himself as a "doer" and to talk as much as he does. Whilst others (Railways, Roads, Power etc) are delivering in performance, he is trying to compensate with talk. Sooner rather than later he will be found out OR he will be forced to start delivering, there is no way Modi is going to accept this situation much longer.

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Dash @noksss @Levina @Parul @arp2041

 

[noksss]

NEW DELHI: Last Tuesday's Cabinet reshuffle happened out of a Prime Minister-led two-month long assessment process that ranked ministers and ministries, and also a talent selection process that vetted several MPs before picking 19 for induction in the council of ministers.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Parrikar has lofty political ambitions, you can bet he is feeling the heat from this kind of scrutiny. This, in part, explains his eagerness to project himself as a "doer" and to talk as much as he does. Whilst others (Railways, Roads, Power etc) are delivering in performance, he is trying to compensate with talk. Sooner rather than later he will be found out OR he will be forced to start delivering, there is no way Modi is going to accept this situation much longer.

@PARIKRAMA @anant_s @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Dash @noksss @Levina @Parul @arp2041

Cool down bro parikkar is not worse as you think him to be if not great he is at least doing a good job . Do you think he can get away from such scrutiny by Modi and team by simply talking and not doing anything ?. One of the main reason for your frustration is Rafale deal but when you are dealing with someone like this you have to do some hard bargain

But India should be careful, since France have dragged the MRCA deal leading to its cancellation. The huge price escalation led to order reduced from 126 to 36 aircrafts without any ToT. France has promised to abide by MRCA tender but it has used every chance to divert the contract to its interest. This offset contract should not be used again by France to secure the Rafale deal but India should make France abide by the clauses of the contract without any loop holes through sovereign guarantee.

Lets wait for the whole picture to emerge before coming to a conclusion about him.

 

[BON PLAN]

It had been stipulated by @Picdelamirand-oil that production for the first batch of the IAF's Rafales had already begun and would be ready for delivery in mid-2018.

Are you sure it is the first jet for India? for Qatar yes, for India.... I doubt.
Without a firm order it's a risk (financially and technicaly if these plane aren't the same than France, Qatar or Egyptian ones) for DA to began the production.

Out of the 27, maybe, aircraft to be delivered in 2018, I'm sure we can manage 4-6 aircraft for IAF. In fact, I don't think Qatar and Egypt can absorb more than 6 each per year. And France is yet to budget for more Rafales after 2019.

Qatar will take 11 plane/year. It's the contract.

 

[randomradio]

Qatar will take 11 plane/year. It's the contract.

That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.

 

[Grevion]

That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.

Mate any hushed news about the LSA.

 

[randomradio]

Mate any hushed news about the LSA.

Nope. Nothing. Rafale deal and FGFA are first. Everything else is for next year.

 

[BON PLAN]

That will still leave a sizable number for India. Production numbers could be 27 in 2018. With 17 booked, there's 10 left.

For the moment, I've read that DA will jump to 2 planes/month x11 working months/year = 22 planes. 5 planes available. To date...

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/753557382169448450

 

[Abingdonboy]

Are you sure it is the first jet for India? for Qatar yes, for India.... I doubt.
Without a firm order it's a risk (financially and technicaly if these plane aren't the same than France, Qatar or Egyptian ones) for DA to began the production.

This is just what @Picdelamirand-oil had said last year but clearly as time has progressed that possibility has diminished and will continue to look less and less likely.

https://twitter.com/x/status/753557382169448450

@PARIKRAMA seems like more stalling by MP